FlatBlack Posted August 1, 2009 Author Share Posted August 1, 2009 Tony D said in that thread smokey posted that the A/Z HEI wasn't that great. I don't see how slapping on a HEI module would fix this, but hey, what do I know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Six_Shooter Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 I realize that people have triggered thier coils directly from MS, without issue, but in this case it sounds like the "igniter" or more specifically the transistor used to trigger the coil is either weak and not allowing a strong enough ground to charge the coil, or there is a weak ground reference to the transistor/MS. Another thing that comes to mind is if the dwell is too short, I'm not sure how dwell is controlled/effected on MS, since I don't use one, and would really need to be so short to describe what you're seeing that I would be surprised to see any spark at all. The HEI module sounds like a better option. I'm used to GM ignitions anyway, where the dizzy/crank position sensor triggers the ICM, and the EMS, just reads RPM from the ICM and sends a signal to the ICM to control timing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlatBlack Posted August 1, 2009 Author Share Posted August 1, 2009 I realize that people have triggered thier coils directly from MS, without issue, but in this case it sounds like the "igniter" or more specifically the transistor used to trigger the coil is either weak and not allowing a strong enough ground to charge the coil, or there is a weak ground reference to the transistor/MS. Another thing that comes to mind is if the dwell is too short, I'm not sure how dwell is controlled/effected on MS, since I don't use one, and would really need to be so short to describe what you're seeing that I would be surprised to see any spark at all. The HEI module sounds like a better option. I'm used to GM ignitions anyway, where the dizzy/crank position sensor triggers the ICM, and the EMS, just reads RPM from the ICM and sends a signal to the ICM to control timing. Well the coil is sending spark to the distributor cap, I pulled the wire and put a spark plug on it and it was sparking with a purple spark. Thanks for the input, I picked up a HEI module today [DR100] so I'll be hooking it up tomorrow and see what's going on. I have dwell set at 6.0 2.6 and 1.5 respectively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrumpetRhapsody Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 Min discharge is the time the coil is allowed to spark before charging starts again. (0.1mS is a typical starting point and generally works for 99% of installs) Coil is taking too long to recharge with your setting of 1.5ms. <= Weak Spark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlatBlack Posted August 2, 2009 Author Share Posted August 2, 2009 :heads to shop: *edit* Didn't work. But, I did find out I'm getting spark to the cylinders. Still no spark from a spark plug, instead I used a bolt and got a orange spark from the bolt in the spark plug wire to the strut tower bolt when I held it about a 1/4 inch away. My friend is very convinced all I need is a condensor on the coil, I'm going to try that and if it doesn't work just move on to the HEI tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeatrpi Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 Hey now, progress! Now you can set the trigger angle........ Also, I'm sure you're grounding the electrode when you're looking for spark in the plug? It needs a ground, you can't just have the plug floating in your hand and expect to see a spark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
letitsnow Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 Are you using the '83 dizzy? Try rotating it all the way counter clockwise and using a 55deg trigger angle with 6.0, 3.5, and .1 for dwell settings, I got those from the megamanual. This is what I'm using and the car fires right up. Here's my msq, it only goes up to 100kpa so don't drive it without changing the ve and spark table(if it works). running l28 letitsnow.zip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlatBlack Posted August 3, 2009 Author Share Posted August 3, 2009 Thanks for the MSQ, letitsnow! Lots of progress tonight. Car is definitely trying to start, the best failed attempts [firing but not yet idling] were when we lowered the Req Fuel. I'm pretty certain now that the spark is good, [threw a condenser on and voila, spark] now I need to double check my injector circuits. I'm running 30# ford EV1 low impedance injectors off of a Mustang Cobra, MegaTune set the Req Fuel at 9.9 which seems proper, Mike's turbo injectors were at 12.0 Thank you for all the help tonight Chris, I kind of took up all your Sunday sorry! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrumpetRhapsody Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 We think the fueling issue may be caused by some components I noticed missing from the PWM circuit, Q10 and Q13. We found them locally at RadioShack, so we'll probably try that tomorrow (2N3904 NPN). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlatBlack Posted August 3, 2009 Author Share Posted August 3, 2009 It might help to know that I did not do the initial assembly of this board, but rather I had to go through it and find out what needed to be installed. Chris noticed Q10 and Q13 missing which is part of the flyback circuit. I was sold this as coming off of a 'running' car, but I'd pay $1000 to see a holset L28 running with a points dizzy off of that board like how I got it. The TPS input was wired into the switch, not the sensor etc etc. /end rant Chris has been my MegaSquirt go-to guy, I am the newb and he is helping through this. I got online tonight and found a Radio Shack in town that has the 2N3904FS-ND transistors in stock, so I'll pick them up after work and put them in after watching the latest Top Gear Hopefully we will have some good results tomorrow night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlatBlack Posted August 4, 2009 Author Share Posted August 4, 2009 Went out tonight, got some weird results. [i installed the transistors and I think my fuel is good now] I played around with the settings from letitsnow's MSQ. I could get it to fire while holding the starter, it would go up to about 800RPM, then start to die, I'll put about 25% throttle and let off immediately, it would bounce back up to about 800 or 900RPM with the starter cranking, but I couldn't get it to do anything past that. I played around with the settings for about thirty minutes. Before I left I pulled the plugs and they looked fine, not covered in black crap or anything. I'm assuming it is spark related now, I just don't know what to do next. I'll post my datalog, maybe the data can give some clues to what is going on. I'm thinking maybe my dizzy is bad? I have a Z31 turbo Dizzy off of a 87, I'll throw the internals into the 83 dizzy housing and maybe that will help. Please give me some input if you see something screwy here. datalog200908032053.zip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
letitsnow Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 If you kept my trigger angle, did you rotate the dizzy all the way CC? Are you pumping the throttle when trying to start it? Something funny is going on the the TP in your datalog. Also, maybe zero out the AE table, it's kicking in when you're trying to start it and may be drowning the engine. If you're getting a consistent and believable rpm in megatune, then I don't think the dizzy is bad. Mine was so I swapped in the guts from an '87 z31 dizzy, I just needed some longer bolts and nuts to hold it in place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlatBlack Posted August 4, 2009 Author Share Posted August 4, 2009 If you kept my trigger angle, did you rotate the dizzy all the way CC? Are you pumping the throttle when trying to start it? Something funny is going on the the TP in your datalog. Also, maybe zero out the AE table, it's kicking in when you're trying to start it and may be drowning the engine. If you're getting a consistent and believable rpm in megatune, then I don't think the dizzy is bad. Mine was so I swapped in the guts from an '87 z31 dizzy, I just needed some longer bolts and nuts to hold it in place. Yes, I rotated it all the way counterclockwise - the best angle I found was 42 and +0 "I could get it to fire while holding the starter, it would go up to about 800RPM, then start to die, I'll put about 25% throttle and let off immediately, it would bounce back up to about 800 or 900RPM with the starter cranking, but I couldn't get it to do anything past that." That's the only way to keep the car "running" at all. If I didn't do that it would just fire up to about 800 then die.That's why the TP looks weird. I wonder about the dizzy because when it would come back down off of a peak [from 800 down to whatever] MegaTune would read a RPM of 1200 [or something not right] for a split second. I could try the AE table thing, but the spark plugs looked alright. Thanks for all of your help. Freakin' Z cars haha The worst part is I could hear the turbo spinning a bit when it got up to 800 or 900 RPM. What a tease! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
letitsnow Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 Any progress? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlatBlack Posted August 15, 2009 Author Share Posted August 15, 2009 Not at all haha. A little bit of an update and a pitiful plea for help: http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=152353 Also, Chris noticed that when I hit the throttle my O2 reading would change. I don't have a wideband connected right now, and the car was off, why would that happen? There are many clues that point to a board issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrumpetRhapsody Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 [This is Mat btw] I'm over at Chris' house, I took the board out to physically inspect it while going through the megamanual and DIYAT write up, and noticed that the pull up resistor we installed as per the megamanual was not installed in the DIY write up OR in Big Phil's video. I'm going out to the shop to see if this was our problem. Pictars: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
letitsnow Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 The only PU resistor I have is on opto in and tach select, nothing on the IGBT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlatBlack Posted August 15, 2009 Author Share Posted August 15, 2009 Alright - That must have been the problem. When Chris and I were going through the VB921 circuit we installed that jumper without reading that it was if you were NOT firing directly off the coil. The car will almost idle, I need to work on the VE table now. It ran about 30 seconds one time. I got it up to about 3000 RPM and then blew the SS line off the distro block. heh I'm about to get on a boat an go wakeboard for an hour or so, then hopefully Chris will meet me up at the shop after a while and we can get the car road worthy. I took a datalog, I'll post it up when I get back to the house tonight. Special thanks to Big-Phil and his videos for confirmation on my screw up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlatBlack Posted August 16, 2009 Author Share Posted August 16, 2009 Fail, fail, fail and some more fail. Got the car started, ran for a good 30 seconds or so a couple of times. Went back to wrap up some things I needed to do on the car and no spark again. I'm guessing the coil driver has gone dead. The coil will barely spark, I had to hold it almost touching the coil wire to the strut bolt for it to spark at all. Any advice on what I should do now? Since the board was running at one point I don't think it will help for me to send it to someone to test on their car, I just have no clue what to do. Here is it running earlier today before it took a dump. datalog200908151717.rar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlatBlack Posted August 17, 2009 Author Share Posted August 17, 2009 So I did the datalog upload wrong somehow, oops. I'll go re-upload when I get back home as it's on my laptop. I swear to you, it was running Chris heard it on the phone Anyone out there know much about tracking down a problem with the ignition circuit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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