turbo swap questions (be gentle)

[WreZ]

ok, school has started, i have a job and i've been saving what little money i can. And with all this in

place i am finally ready to give my z the attenton it deserves. My HP goal is to eventually to reach

a conservative 220-250 hp i have been researching costs and labor in relation to NA stroker vs turbo

conversions and have since only come up with a unanimous answer of "turbo!". So i'm going for it!

there are only a few roadblocks that i need to get out of the way firstly:

 

1: I know that Megasquirt is the end all as far as EMS goes here (cost wise) but is this system newbie

friendly and are there any real advantages over other EMS systems, or is the cost of other systems worth it?

 

2: I know some people on these forums regard the p90 as the holy savior of turbo heads, but i have never

seen any flow charts or anything about the p90 being superior to the p79 (i have an NA)in terms of flow and effeciency.

so yeah, is the p90 a must or should i spend that money on something else? I've also heard of some folks

using the N42 is that any good either? (flow, compression etc)

 

3: i was thinking about a T3/T4 turbo, would that be overkill or should i just stick with a stock turbo?

 

4: i'm still not sure about what ignition to use, stock 280zxt dizzy or just using the sensor on the dizzy

to act as a trigger for MSnS. i want the luxury of having direct control of my ignition but I don't know if

my lack of experience will allow me to do a good job of doing so. Also i've heard of people using the 300zx

dizzy in their cars, would that be a better swap than the ZXT dizzy (i currently have an NA so it would be

a swap either way)

 

5: i'm trying to save money where i can, what fuel pumps could i pull that would give me decent flow and for

lack of better words "Not crap out on me"?

 

6: are there any cars that have same side intercoolers (inlet and outlet on same side)that i could pull for relatively cheap, or do you have any intercooler suggestions?

 

lastly if there are any comments you guys have feel free to post them, i am NOT an expert on these cars

and i am Not an expert mechanic or fabricator. Also if you guys think that i could make a reliable NA motor

for my power demands let me know what setup to use, the only reason i'm hesitant about the turbo conversion

is downtime (i know some of you guys can pull these motors in an afternoon, thats certainly not me)

[FlatBlack]

MS has a sharp learning curve, but it's not bad after you get your hands dirty with it. I like the fact that everything is very open about it, and the guys at DIYAutoTune have been really helpful for me, and have given me quick tech support after the sale.

 

ZXT Dizzy is going to be your best bet for a budget, and a Z31 Dizzy won't work, you still need a 82-83 Dizzy for the housing and shaft. People just swap in the internals.

 

I'm running a F54/P79 and it's fine... for now. I'll probably look into a thicker head gasket for later. I'm at 8.7:1 right now with my Fail-pro. Flat Top F54/N42 would be ridiculous for a turbo swap. it's high 9s in the SCR IIRC.

 

I'm running a Volvo intercooler, I didn't find much problem with a 'different side' FMIC, I don't know why people are crazy for them.

 

My butt dyno says my car is muuuuuch faster than N/A, I'd say stick with the T3 at first, you can always upgrade later. Especially if you're on a budget.

 

Walboro 255s are cheap. Around $100. I put a link to them on my 'N/A to turbo swap' thread.

 

I was in your shoes several months ago, not saying I did it the 'best' way or anything, but you can look through my build thread for ideas if you feel like it:

 

http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=150722

 

And here's the N/A to Turbo Thread:

 

http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=153195

 

Good luck!! I've really grown to like the L28 after this swap.

[Guest Rolling Parts]

1: MS is far from Newbie friendly; in fact it's selling point is "education" and so EXPECT that you'll spend more time on it than anything else you'll do with the entire swap. Go to the MS forums and decide it you like what you see. If you go that route V3 MSII is better than MSI. Budget an extra $230 if you go MS because you WILL NEED the wideband O2 sensor because tuning will never end...

 

2: Don't sweat the head if you're only going 225hp but the turbo cams in the P90 have less overlap.

 

3: Actually the injectors will be a limiting factor around 220hp, not the turbo.

 

4:Cheapest controllable ignition system is a used EDIS for around $100. A good used 82-83 turboZX dizzy with it's unique oil pump spindle can go for twice that and is older and mechanical and sloppy and requires replacement of internal wear items tha are getting harder to find.

 

5: Walbro GSL392 fuel pump is $110.

 

6: I have no suggestion on intercoolers that would adapt.

[cygnusx1]

Sorry to throw in a curve but you can easily make your power goals with the stock turbo motor and fuel injection. Add an intercooler, FMU, Walbro fuel pump, turn the boost to about 12psi with a home-made MBC, and ramp the fuel pressure to about 50psi on the fmu. You should make about 230rwhp. You can go up to about 250+RWHP with this setup around 15psi boost and 65psi fuel pressure.

 

Cost is about $600 on top of a stock turbo motor, if you do your own install. BONUS POINTS if you also do a nice downpipe and exhaust for another$300-$400

 

Need proof?

 

[WreZ]

thanks for all the replies guys!

 

so after a quick scan over your responses i think i about have the general idea of what else i need. Something along the lines of a fuel pressure regulator (and probably one of palnet's fuel rails with the pressure gauges on it) would just a rising rate fuel pressure regulator suffice or should i just go straight for adjustable FMU? I am trying to find a turbo cam right now (just finding one by itself is difficult) i assume the p90 cam would fit the p79 (?). i will more than likely be replacing the entire valve train (118k on the head right now) as for fuel injectors i think i could get my hands on some 440 supra's (my friend knows a guy apparently, hopefully he's reputable). I'd do the Ford EDIS system but i really just want to have the car down time kept to minimum (but i will do something like it eventually) and would like to not spend a thousand hours on experimenting with my igntion system. my other option would be to use the method that RTz describes in this thread (http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=126055) in his second post he describes drilling a hole in the 280zxt dizzy plate and using that as a trigger for full sequential injection and ignition (this is in the wolf3d section of the forums so shoot me down if i'm babbling here) i'm aiming for a walboro 255 as my fuel pump and maybe get my friend terry to fabricate me a downpipe (he will work as long as its not to hard and theres enough beer to keep his head level). Also as far as a head gasket goes should i stick with a stock height unit or should I go with a 2MM (metal or what?)if i'm running the p79 and flat top pistons.

 

so yeah, feels good to finally have the plans coming together, my friend has been hanging his supercharged Pontiac Fiero in my face so it would be nice to show him up!

[woldson]

P90a cam will die in the 79 head.

 

The difference for your goals is really not much of a bother, stick with the 79.

 

100k on this engine, esp. if cared for, is nothing!

 

One problem you may face in the N/a setup being used for turbo application is the metal inserts in the 79 head. This is a debatable point, however, they help in the transition of gases leaving the combustion chamber so you will want to keep them.

 

Ping will be a little more of an issue with the one point increase in comp ratio.

 

Nothing that a little meth injection can't handle.

 

If your engine is in good shape, 100k or so, don't mess with it, turbo it slowly.

 

Put your money into gauges, wide band, edis or MSD, meth injec and most of all

 

READING! (I know you are, just wanted to throw that out there.)

 

Do a more creative (expensive) engine overhaul when you are more comfortable in the saddle.

 

This is only my opinion, good luck.

[FlatBlack]

thanks for all the replies guys!

 

so after a quick scan over your responses i think i about have the general idea of what else i need. Something along the lines of a fuel pressure regulator (and probably one of palnet's fuel rails with the pressure gauges on it) would just a rising rate fuel pressure regulator suffice or should i just go straight for adjustable FMU? I am trying to find a turbo cam right now (just finding one by itself is difficult) i assume the p90 cam would fit the p79 (?). i will more than likely be replacing the entire valve train (118k on the head right now) as for fuel injectors i think i could get my hands on some 440 supra's (my friend knows a guy apparently, hopefully he's reputable). I'd do the Ford EDIS system but i really just want to have the car down time kept to minimum (but i will do something like it eventually) and would like to not spend a thousand hours on experimenting with my igntion system. my other option would be to use the method that RTz describes in this thread (http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=126055) in his second post he describes drilling a hole in the 280zxt dizzy plate and using that as a trigger for full sequential injection and ignition (this is in the wolf3d section of the forums so shoot me down if i'm babbling here) i'm aiming for a walboro 255 as my fuel pump and maybe get my friend terry to fabricate me a downpipe (he will work as long as its not to hard and theres enough beer to keep his head level). Also as far as a head gasket goes should i stick with a stock height unit or should I go with a 2MM (metal or what?)if i'm running the p79 and flat top pistons.

 

so yeah, feels good to finally have the plans coming together, my friend has been hanging his supercharged Pontiac Fiero in my face so it would be nice to show him up!

 

Hmm... I'm going to go with a 'not a good idea' on the RRFPR, and instead of going through all the trouble of swapping a P90 Cam and new valvetrain, why don't you just get a P90 head for your flat top motor?

 

Did you read my threads or are you just looking for quick answers?

 

6 Shooter is running a P90 head on a Flat Top Block [he says so in the N/A to Turbo thread] and I've been having great success with my F54/P79.

 

You're on a budget here, I would work on the engine control first, and the long block last.

 

Go find Gixxer Squid's thread about blowing up his brand new motor due to timing.

 

I turbo'd my 80,000 mile F54/P79 motor because A: I have a standalone on a conservative tune and B: I have another L28 and L28ET sitting in my shop. There is NO reason why you should dump alot of money into the motor if you are going to skimp out on other stuff.

 

I'm not trying to be harsh, I just want to save you some heartburn and stress later on.

 

My advice: Find a P90, just throw it in there with some ARP head studs, a new head gasket, and see where that takes you.

 

Good luck!!

[WreZ]

thanks again guys!

 

Woldson, i was planning on setting this all up slowly and adding what pieces i could to the car right now to save downtime (like megasquirt/wideband/gauges etc) at least thats what i think you meant when you said turbo slowly. i'm kind of flip flopping on getting some turbo pistons because to be frank ever since i saw FlatBlack's car was running flat tops it was kind of like a revalation to me,(someone using flat top pistons *gasp* i've never heard of such a thing!) and as far as dished pistons go i've heard the ring lands on turbo pistons are lower than plain dished tops from early Z's would it matter which one i get for my needs (i suppose piston heat needs is more like it).I'm not even going to touch the exhaust liners because quiet frankly i've heard both sides of the story (positive and negative). I was just wondering about the cam (to be honest don't know much about these cams) because the turbo cam would have less valve overlap but apparently it doesn't matter so cool, another thing i don't have to buy!

 

Flat black,

 

yes i have read your NA to turbo and your Flatblack build up threads, and they have been an enournous source of information, just thought i'd add that.

 

This weekend i'm looking into a guy nearby who apparently has a 82 turbo Z and only wants to sell the motor (what a coincidence, i just want a motor!) so we'll see how that goes. thanks again guys

[FlatBlack]

Hey now, I don't want any credit for that. If anyone, I'd say Mike [Mikeatrpi] was the first to get there. I did nearly all of the same things he did, down to tapping the oil pan for the turbo return.

 

Here's the thread: [it's a good thread, read it if you have time]

http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=127833&highlight=mikeatrpi

 

I'm even using his MegaSquirt fuel and spark maps for my car. He did all the hard work of getting the base tune down and it's been awesome having a conservative tune I can start modifying to fit my tastes.

 

Wait.... Exhaust liners??? What head do you have again?? IIRC the N42 was the only head that had them.

 

I have an L28ET at the shop, if everything goes well I probably will just keep the flat tops and swap on the P90 if I ever blow a head gasket or do something.

 

Couple of questions - Is this your Daily Driver, and do you have a garage or space to work on it?

 

I'd advise against doing something like this to your DD, but it's your car I would definitely keep a spare motor laying around though, for safety.

[cygnusx1]

As far as the rrfpr goes, if you get a good one like a begi, it works very well. Its onset is adjustable so yu can get a pretty decent afr curve. Mine was very consistent and I was able to run pig rich at 15psi boost if I needed to. On stock turbo injectors.

 

It certainly would be a great idea, however to follow in Mike and flatblack's footsteps if you are converting from N/A.

[WreZ]

Alright just got back from a two hour drive with my friend in his pontiac solstice gxp, so whatever motivation i had to build this thing just got multiplied by a thousand percent:mrgreen:

 

cygnusx1, looking back on your first reply you said that the stock injectors could handle the extra fuel but i always was under the impresion that running more fuel pressure through the injectors (especially with an rrfpr)would work but would cause excessive wear on the injectors and was more a bandaid than anything (confirm or deny?). and actually while i'm talking about cygnusx1 i just looked up the rrfpr i was planning on using and guess what, its a begi so i guess we're on the same page there.

 

huh so i guess mike had the original idea (well i'm sure lots of people had thought about it), guess i'll have to steal some ideas off him too (bookmarks thread). I know a guy nearby me who has a wrecked early model z (77 if i'm not mistaken) so dished pistons are always an option if you guys think my engine will become a pinging monster with this setup.

 

Also one more thing about ignition, everyone is pretty adamant about EDIS but thats probably the subject i've reserched the least so if someone could point me in the direction of a helpful thread i'd appreciate it and yes i did read braap's (aka dr blows my brain to bits) thread on EDIS but for some reason i can't really explain i could never really figure out how it applied to running in megasquirt i thought it was all just a standalone system(don't know why but i feel like i'm gonna get yelled at for that)

 

so ya i think i know enough to at least get a ballpark idea where i'm at as far as cost (once i triple it that is)and what parts to get and what not to get. The only HUGE thing for me is garage space, since i moved to college my engineering teacher has let me use one of the spare spots in the engineering garage to change my oil and such but asking him if i could do an entire turbo conversion in there is kind of iffy (or maybe he'll be enthused and offer to help who knows). So now i think its just a matter of finding reliable garage space and saving up my cash some more, hopefully i'll be getting some overtime this week.

[cygnusx1]

Excessive wear to injectors from more fuel pressure? That's a longshot. Besides, the fuel pressure is stock unless you are at boost. You don't boost for very long. Yes, it is bandaid, in this day and age. Proper long term solution is more expensive/involved...other option is that you can pick up larger injectors and:

 

A)tweak the factory AFM to compensate leaner for when you are NOT on boost 95% of the time. (gambling on a mystery AFR curve) <---applies to an FMU as well but with an FMU, when you are off boost, the fuel curves remain stock so it drives like a factory car.

 

B)Get a standalone system and tune properly. (ideal)

 

 

 

The FMU is to avoid steps A and B for either:

 

A)Cost

B)Simplicity....lol.

 

 

 

 

EDIS (module, coilpack, 36-1 toothwheel, and sensor) will run your car without Megasquirt at a preset, fixed, ignition timing. In order to control the timing curve, there are two wires (sheilded) that go from EDIS to MS and then MS can simply control EDIS via full timing maps that you create. The spark is HUGE from the EDIS. It's really a nice setup.

 

 

 

 

I don't think Mike had the original idea to Turbo an N/A L series motor. That is ancient history. However, technology changes and MikeATRPI is one of the most recent to do it here at HybridZ and has the most up to date experience.

 

 

I think there are threads and plenty of people running 8-9 compression Z motors with turbos around here. It works. It's just that you are always one step closer to detonation. General rule is that you get more power by lowering compression and raising boost than vice versa.

 

 

Great questions by the way.

[FlatBlack]

Alright just got back from a two hour drive with my friend in his pontiac solstice gxp, so whatever motivation i had to build this thing just got multiplied by a thousand percent:mrgreen:

 

cygnusx1, looking back on your first reply you said that the stock injectors could handle the extra fuel but i always was under the impresion that running more fuel pressure through the injectors (especially with an rrfpr)would work but would cause excessive wear on the injectors and was more a bandaid than anything (confirm or deny?). and actually while i'm talking about cygnusx1 i just looked up the rrfpr i was planning on using and guess what, its a begi so i guess we're on the same page there.

 

huh so i guess mike had the original idea (well i'm sure lots of people had thought about it), guess i'll have to steal some ideas off him too (bookmarks thread). I know a guy nearby me who has a wrecked early model z (77 if i'm not mistaken) so dished pistons are always an option if you guys think my engine will become a pinging monster with this setup.

 

Also one more thing about ignition, everyone is pretty adamant about EDIS but thats probably the subject i've reserched the least so if someone could point me in the direction of a helpful thread i'd appreciate it and yes i did read braap's (aka dr blows my brain to bits) thread on EDIS but for some reason i can't really explain i could never really figure out how it applied to running in megasquirt i thought it was all just a standalone system(don't know why but i feel like i'm gonna get yelled at for that)

 

so ya i think i know enough to at least get a ballpark idea where i'm at as far as cost (once i triple it that is)and what parts to get and what not to get. The only HUGE thing for me is garage space, since i moved to college my engineering teacher has let me use one of the spare spots in the engineering garage to change my oil and such but asking him if i could do an entire turbo conversion in there is kind of iffy (or maybe he'll be enthused and offer to help who knows). So now i think its just a matter of finding reliable garage space and saving up my cash some more, hopefully i'll be getting some overtime this week.

 

Yes, definitely figure out the garage space before you do ANYTHING.

 

I have a dedicated slot in a huge garage for Flatty [complete with compressed air running the length of the shop ], and instead of a week like I expected the swap to take [Had the motor out in ONE hour and the rest of it hooked up in the next two days], it took me 3 months. It will most likely take longer than you expect.

 

I have this theory.... No evidence to back it up but hearsay... but it's a magical word dealing with the shape of the combustion chamber when they hit TDC, regarding the Flat Tops that I dare not say.

 

Don't think your F54/P79 as a handicap if you have a stand alone.

 

ABOUT the EDIS business. I'm not sure you are understanding that very well. A custom ignition system will be controlled with a stand alone. Mr. B and Mr. R are quite fond of Wolf [Please don't strike me down guys ] but you can use MS for EDIS as well. Go search the MS or Wolf forum if you want to learn more. My buddy TrumpetRhapsody is running EDIS on MSII and [as far as I know] it's running great.

 

I am running a 83 ZXT CAS Dizzy with spark generated through MS, but most think that it is not the best setup.

 

If you are going stand alone you should upgrade your injectors. I am running 8 lbs. due to a loose bolt on my wastegate [i'd fix it if I didn't like 8 lbs ] and I am already getting over 100 Duty Cycle on my 260cc L28ET injectors. I thought I had 30# Cobra injectors but got screwed over on an ebay deal. I have 35# injectors [~380cc] sitting at my buddy's shop that will go in as soon as I fix my wideband/reset issues.

 

I'm glad you bookmarked Mike's page, he is doing a very conservative swap and is probably a lot more responsible than me [i have other motors and another Z if something terrible happens].

 

I'm glad you're looking into this, I have really grown to love the Flat Top F54 and I'm probably going to pick up anther Flat Top short Block to add to the arsenal. If everything goes well I'll rebuild that short block and throw the P90 on top.

[woldson]

My p79's have exhaust liners.

 

Great stuff guys.

 

I will be building a flat top/p90 with no intercooler and meth injection, edis and standalone......someday.

 

Me gots lots of parts, money just gose to family.

 

I do have a rusty zx in my driveway now for my build, probaly going to give my nice zx to wifey, she loves it so.

[280zx 2by2]

so yeah, feels good to finally have the plans coming together, my friend has been hanging his supercharged Pontiac Fiero in my face so it would be nice to show him up!

what's with Fiero and 280zx guys being buddies? must be something about the 80's

 

just glad my friend didn't sc his lol

[WreZ]

what's with Fiero and 280zx guys being buddies? must be something about the 80's

 

just glad my friend didn't sc his lol

 

yeah he beats me on the straightaways but i took him to the track this weekend and killed him in the corners (aint rear engine understeer a bitch)

 

also lol @ woldson for having the most posts concerning methanol injection in recorded history(not a bad thing just something i've begun to notice:mrgreen:)

 

ok so i think for ignition i'm pretty set on using EDIS with MSnS triggered by the 36-1 crank sensor. I know somebody on these forums sells trigger wheels and mounting kits for Z's on this site can someone tell me his name so i can maybe send an order his way in the future.

 

 

I have this theory.... No evidence to back it up but hearsay... but it's a magical word dealing with the shape of the combustion chamber when they hit TDC, regarding the Flat Tops that I dare not say.

ah yes the Q word, or so i think

 

Also if any of the flat top turbo guys could tell me if running the p79 cam hampers performance any? once again not sure about the Z cam specifics, i do know the turbo cam would have less valve overlap but i don't know if its that different from the NA cam as far as drivability/performance goes

 

i know cygnusx1 said that the stock injectors could handle more power demands but i was thinking of running slightly larger injectors just as insurance, good/bad?

 

i'm thinking for garage space i'll just park the car at my parents house (few hours away) work on the car on weekends and holidays and just drive my old bug around or talk to some of the classic z car owners around here if they're interested in helping.

 

thanks again for the replies guys, you're really helping me out here!

[woldson]

http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=141036&highlight=wrenchrat

 

 

It's weird, and your probably correct.

 

Their are many threads concerning detonation problems, very in depth and intriguing, yet meth injection is spoke of rarely.

And when mentioned it just kinda gets pushed aside.

 

Not much of a problem just strange.

 

The link posted speaks well to how effective it can be.

 

 

For your goals, you will not see too much of a differnce in cams. Somewhere I had a chart showing cams of all the different engines, there was not that much diffence in the specs. (at least nothing that jumped out at you)

[Guest Rolling Parts]

yet meth injection is spoke of rarely.

And when mentioned it just kinda gets pushed aside.

 

It works; the downsides are that water/methanol are corrosive to aluminum. It's more corrosive at higher temperatures. Streaming it above aluminum pistons at high temperatures is fine for the life of a race engine or a WWII piston engine but you may want an expected life of a street car engine to last a bit longer than 30 hours.

[woldson]

True, however, since the methanol is only exposed to aluminum in vapor form during run cycles (spirited, not cruising) I would have a tendency to believe it would be very minimal. If not unmentionable.

 

When I do my build I will be doing ceramic coating as well.

 

This is for a meth injection kit, not running meth or ethanol 100%. IE injected with a regular running engine with gas.

 

You can use windshield fuild, for a roughly a 49/51 mix.

 

http://forums.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?t=966584

[FlatBlack]

 

ah yes the Q word, or so i think

 

Also if any of the flat top turbo guys could tell me if running the p79 cam hampers performance any? once again not sure about the Z cam specifics, i do know the turbo cam would have less valve overlap but i don't know if its that different from the NA cam as far as drivability/performance goes

 

i know cygnusx1 said that the stock injectors could handle more power demands but i was thinking of running slightly larger injectors just as insurance, good/bad?

 

i'm thinking for garage space i'll just park the car at my parents house (few hours away) work on the car on weekends and holidays and just drive my old bug around or talk to some of the classic z car owners around here if they're interested in helping.

 

thanks again for the replies guys, you're really helping me out here!

 

IMO - Don't buy slightly larger injectors. Get big ones. Alot of people are running Supra Turbo 7M 440cc injectors, I'm going to be running 35# [380cc] Ford SVO injectors soon. You do not want to max out your injectors, I'm on 8 lbs boost and I'm already getting over 100 Duty Cycle on the 260cc injectors.

 

About the P79 vs. P90 - I don't know, haha. I own a L28ET [with a P90A] but I've never used it. I'm most likely going to swap over to the P90A if I need to replace a head gasket or when I rebuild a short block, but I'm happy with the P79 for now.