Roll cage for 280z

[rx8ss]

thats really cheap for a cage, most shops quoted me at $500 for a 6 point SCCA/IMSA approved cage and with two contacts on the passenger and driver floorpans, and then the 4 others are in the back with the cross bars in the hatch area.

 

can anyone confirm that $500 is reasonable, (sorry to threadjack )

 

Keep in mind that those roll bars are not NHRA legal unless at least .118 thick to maintain the .095 wall thickness at the bends.

[Two80z4me]

.12 thick tubing, so should be? Im doing road racing and scca, so it doesn't necessarily have to be qualified for NHRA, but Im all for having a cage that will save my life, not just get me into an event, seen to many people roll there cars here and die.

[johnc]

Umm......EWS tubing?

 

If that's their own marketing term for ERW tubing then its not legal for any autocross and road racing sanctioning body. DOM is the requirement.

[Cable]

S&W already sells one for the 240. All you have to do is order it. Mine was $279.00 shipped for a 8 Point.

 

Thanks for at least replying.

 

How did you get it so cheap?

 

Thanks!!

[rx8ss]

That is their normal price. Shipping depends on what zone you are in.

 

http://www.swracecars.com/store/view-item-search.aspx?Search=11-5095

[Cable]

That is their normal price. Shipping depends on what zone you are in.

 

http://www.swracecars.com/store/view-item-search.aspx?Search=11-5095

 

I wonder why these two are priced so different....

 

http://www.swracecars.com/store/8-Point-Roll-Bar-OSCARItem_105=11-5095-DOM.aspx

[rx8ss]

The one I got is EWS tubing and the other is DOM.

 

 

NHRA page on roll bar/cages

 

http://www.nhraonline.com/contacts/tech_faq.html

Edited April 2, 2010 by rx8ss

[Apollyon12]

If that's their own marketing term for ERW tubing then its not legal for any autocross and road racing sanctioning body. DOM is the requirement.

 

 

Not to contradict your opinion of safty, which I totally agree with, but I was just looking at the 2010 SCCA Rules.

 

http://www.scca.org/documents/Solo_Rules/2010_scca_solo_rules.pdf

Apendix C - Solo Roll Bar Standards, starts on page 232 and it states in point #1 of section B:

 

1. The roll bar hoop and all braces must be of seamless ERW or DOM

mild steel tubing (SAE 1010, 1020, 1025) or equivalent, or alloy steel

tubing (SAE 4130). It is strongly recommended that roll bars not be

constructed of ERW due to quality and strength concerns.

 

This only applies to SCCA, so I don't know about any other racing, but is there some other reference that I am not seeing that restricts the use of ERW?

[johnc]

Not to contradict your opinion of safty, which I totally agree with, but I was just looking at the 2010 SCCA Rules.

 

http://www.scca.org/documents/Solo_Rules/2010_scca_solo_rules.pdf

Apendix C - Solo Roll Bar Standards, starts on page 232 and it states in point #1 of section B:

 

 

 

This only applies to SCCA, so I don't know about any other racing, but is there some other reference that I am not seeing that restricts the use of ERW?

 

I missed the ERW part in Appendix C. In the Solo2 world (since roll bars are not checked or stamped with a serial number) in practice you can make the roll bar out of anything and pass tech. SCCA Solo2 tech is pretty poor and the only thing that saves them is the low speeds at an autocross. IMHO, ERW in a safety structure is a bad idea.

 

The SCCA GCR specifically excludes ERW for any roll cage design.

[Apollyon12]

I see where it restricts the use of ERW in the SCCA General Competition Rules & Specifications (GCR). But that document is for club racing, NOT Solo I or II, and the section talking about roll bars/cages basicly states that you have to have a full cage, and a roll bar is not suffcient. So for Solo, if you have a roll bar, it must meet the requirements of Appendix C OR if you have a full cage (which some classes require) it must meet the GCR requirements.

 

Am I reading or interpreting that incorrectly?

Edited April 2, 2010 by Apollyon12

[sileightygx]

Not to contradict your opinion of safty, which I totally agree with, but I was just looking at the 2010 SCCA Rules.

 

http://www.scca.org/documents/Solo_Rules/2010_scca_solo_rules.pdf

Quote

 

1. The roll bar hoop and all braces must be of seamless ERW or DOM

mild steel tubing (SAE 1010, 1020, 1025) or equivalent, or alloy steel

tubing (SAE 4130). It is strongly recommended that roll bars not be

constructed of ERW due to quality and strength concerns.

 

 

it is even mentioned that they should not be constructed out of ERW for satefy reasons. why gamble with your life? if you are gonna get a cage, get one that will stand up to the worst case scenario you could possibly have. its just money anyways, your life is worth it. just my two cents..

[Two80z4me]

Now, $399 for an 8 pt cage from SWRacecar.com is reasonable, but now my question is, can you have a bolt in style cage WELDED in by a shop? It would seem to me that it would be just as easy as bolting in.

[Cable]

Now, $399 for an 8 pt cage from SWRacecar.com is reasonable, but now my question is, can you have a bolt in style cage WELDED in by a shop?

 

Sure.

[Apollyon12]

it is even mentioned that they should not be constructed out of ERW for satefy reasons. why gamble with your life? if you are gonna get a cage, get one that will stand up to the worst case scenario you could possibly have. its just money anyways, your life is worth it. just my two cents..

 

 

 

I totally agree with you. One should not skimp on safety.

 

But one should factor in the situation. What is being discussed is the rules for Autocross, so the situation will only ever involve a single car, max speeds around 60mph and safely designed courses. The worst case scenario will never be as "bad" as the worst case scenario for your morning drive to work.

 

The SCCA AX rules DO NOT REQUIRE a cage or roll bar for most classes (except all A Modified (AM), B Modified (BM), C Modified (CM), and F Modified (FM) vehicles and all open cars in Prepared Category, D Modified (DM) class, and E Modified (EM) class, which require a full cage fabricated to the GCR requirements). Remember that all cars (new ones anways, I don't know about Z's, 70's safety isn't the same as today) have rollover protection standards. Minimums that have to be met. So the SCCA has decided that for AX, additional protection, over and above what you need on you morning commute, is not required (except a helmet). Unlike Club racing (GCR) which requires all cars to have a full cage.

 

If you are willing to drive a Z car on the street without a roll bar or full cage, if you feel the as-designed safety measures are good enough, a roll bar could be made out of popsicle sticks. The only job it would be fulfilling is to provide correct mounting for a harness and looking cool. The improved roll-over protection would be IN ADDITION TO the cars corrent roll-over protection. This is ignoring the obvious safety concern of driving a car with a roll bar, or cage, without a helmet because of the likelyhood that your head will impact a bar in a crash.

 

So for the use that I personally have interest in a roll bar, the material that is used doesn't actually matter. It only has to pass tech at my local club. And I definitly agree with JohnC's statement, the cert is not going to be checked, nobody is going to care. Most places, a roll bar made of wood would pass tech if it was painted and a little effort to hide it was made.

 

 

 

But in the end, I definitely agree with you, there can be no skimping on safety if the situation warrents it. It is too easy to just do the minimum and have something which will not do the job you intend it to do. Rally drivers walk away from crashes beause the cages where not built by the lowest bidder. This is just where my thinking has taken me. If you want a harness, a racing seat and a harness bar is required. In a Z, a harness bar means a roll bar. The SCCA rules allow ERW tubing which, in addition to the cars current protection, will be more than adequate for any situation I see myself in. If I was doing any other racing or motorsport besides Autocross, that would be a different story (and different rules).

Edited April 2, 2010 by Apollyon12

[Apollyon12]

Now, $399 for an 8 pt cage from SWRacecar.com is reasonable, but now my question is, can you have a bolt in style cage WELDED in by a shop? It would seem to me that it would be just as easy as bolting in.

 

 

Each mounting plate shall be at least 0.080†thick if welded and 3/16†(0.188â€) thick if bolted. A minimum of 3 bolts per plate is required for bolted mounting plates.

 

Looks like the plates would be a little thicker than "required".

Edited April 2, 2010 by Apollyon12

[johnc]

I hear it all the time when I'm quoting prices for a roll cage. "Can you do it for less and still make the car pass Tech?" I reply, "Yes, I can build a minimum cage that will get you through tech. I can also build you a cage that will probably save your life in most any situation you're likely to encounter on a race track. Which do you want?"

 

A "to the rule minimum" roll cage would have had much more serious results in this example:

 

http://forums.hybridz.org/index.php?/topic/90004-why-there-are-roll-cage-rules/

[johnc]

Looks like the plates would be a little thicker than "required".

 

If you're welding in a bolt-in designed cage its important to increase the plating area. Extend the plates (by welding on additional plates) into rocker panels, strut towers, floor pans, bulkheads, etc. You might even weld plates to the chassis and then weld the bolt-in bar plates to the plates you just welded in. The idea is to spread the loads into a larger area and into adjacent panels.

[Two80z4me]

exactly, reinforcement and the spread of force over an area. Same thing as when you use a hammer on metal, you use a block of wood to give a dead blow instead of a sharp peircing force.

 

and mentioned above "autocross hits 60mph" up on the air force bases here in MT I hit 95mph coming out a sweeper according to my data recorder, regardless of driving by yourself on an auto-x track or on the road, having a cage that is properly built and installed will be an added comfort knowing that your safety isn't neglected. The world is full of stupid people, and stupid people with cars can be an issue anywhere you are, thats my idea anyway.

[rx8ss]

Very good information you all are bringing up. As for the 240 cage fitting in the 280. Not so much, what a pain. Pay the extra money on get one made for it. The main hoop is too narrow and had to strech it out to the width of the floor pan. The next problem was the the bar was in front of the back of the seat. To correct that one of two things had to happen, make me smaller and move the seat forward or tilt the bar back. Well I tilted the bar back to clear the seat. When I stretched the main hoop, the cross bar is now to short. I cut and added a piece in to lengthen it and I doubt that is leagle. The back braces had to go in a a angle to clear the strut towers, but that got them closer to the rear subframe. The door bars are straight and cause a tight fit for me, but doable. In the end I should have paid the money had a costom cage made at a fab shop.

[rx8ss]

Here are a few pics of the install.