What sort of information do cam grinders ask for when you want a custom grind?

[Tony D]

I recently related a story about my first exposure to Gene Berg Enterprises for a technical call. I got the man himself, the Guru, Gene Berg. When I asked about setting up ratio rocker arms his first response was 'Invoice Number'...

 

I didn't have one, because I was on a fishing expedition for free knowledge and information. I said I bought the parts secondhand from someone and didn't have an invoice.

 

'Sorry, without an invoice number the best I can do for you is recommend you buy our series of technical articles for $5 and figure it out on your own, we reserve our technical advice for our customers.' (This would be the pre-internet post equivalent of 'SEARCH THE ARCHIVES' or 'READ THE FAQ!'...)

 

Thought he was an arrogant old man as well. But I bought his technical articles, and indeed it told me everything I needed to know about setting them up. It also gave me the story about how other companies in SoCal were continually ripping off their designs and having them made as cheap knock offs in Taiwan. And how some actually mimeographed Berg Instructions (with their logos covered) and included them in the rip-off parts. He also in the technical articles differentiations in quality and WHY you should buy his parts---explaining their quality checks and how they design, select, and procure parts. And why it was important to keep your invoice numbers so they would be able to give you perpetual technical advice, and how you should transfer your invoice nubmers to anybody who buys the parts off you later so they could get the same free technical advice...for the lifetime of the part. It also explained in there how people were continually buying cheap rip-off parts, and when they couldn't get them to fit, or when the Big Superstore Coutner Monkeys couldn't tell them technical details about how to install, modify, or alter the part for their specific application they would call Berg Enterprises looking for answers. And to put it like Gene said "We will be damned if we help rip off artists and the people who patronize them undercut our superior products. If you buy it some place else, go THERE for advice on how to install it, don't bother calling us without an invoice number!"

 

Rockers from Berg were $105. Rockers from SCS were $39.

 

So I bought the SCS rockers, and using the Berg technical articles installed them perfectly, making sure to note all the pitfalls GEne spelled out quite clearly in his great technical sheets.

 

In less than 10,000 miles, the SCS rockers lost a swivel foot, and trashed my #2 intake valve. Pull the head, repair valve and buy a set of Berg Rockers.

 

65,000 miles later, they still function flawlessly.

 

Oh, and SCS? They were 'big'. A 'superstore' with a lot of volume. They are also bankrupt and long out of business, with a Mexican Cantina Girly Dance Parlor in their old building. Same for good old Johnnies Speed and Chrome. BIG volume seller, and bankrupt.

 

Berg? Gene passed away years ago, the counter is still manned by his trusty #2 man like it always was, and his wife Dee is still present. And they still sell the best damn VW performance parts in the business. They are not the 'least expensive' up front, but when you realize Berg Component Engines routinely run 4-5X the stock HP and run for 150,000+ miles on an engine that rarely goes 50K even on stock parts from Germany you start realizing that a $2000 crankshaft may be better than one that costs $850. Or pistons that go for $400 everywhere else may be worth the $200 extra they ask for theirs.

 

And in their catalog it clearly states on some items: "We reserve the right to restrict sales of this component to customers buying X, Y, & Z components at the same time." Wonder why they do that? I know why...

 

While all the rip off places have gone belly up (good luck on warranty there, kiddo!) Berg is still going strong and developing new items as the situation arises. Before you knock someone for not 'supporting' your request for free engineering courses, realize they are in business, and it gets OLD spoonfeeding hard-learned lessons to someone you know won't spend a nickel on your products, reimburse you for your time, or likely even say 'thank you for your time' after they have milked all your knowledge to then buy a cheap e-bay rip off of your product and install it. Put yourself in their shoes and realize what that feels like to know your on the phone with a time waster. A parasite. Someone looking for valuable information for free.

 

Keep that in mind...

Edited May 6, 2010 by Tony D

[josh817]

Basically reiterated what I had said. I think its best that we agree to disagree. I have my own opinions. I won't share them of course, because I feel like I'm just spinning my tires here and this thread has gone so far off topic that it unfortunately has no real value in my camshaft pursuit I guess you could call it.

 

As I said before, I don't like chatting on the phone until my welcome wears out. It doesn't wear out because I'm trying to cheat the person, it wears out because its like ok dude come on, are you going to buy or not. What if I call up Isky, talk for an hour, and then go with someone else because I changed my mind. Poor Isky just wasted that hour on the phone and didn't get any change in their pockets from a purchase. Right? Right.

 

Alrighty I think we have an agreement coming up with that statement.

[Xnke]

Ok, I just called up the Kamerari rep here in the US. I got exactly the same treatment, and I ASKED for a suggested cam profile, giving my cylinder head flow rates, valve sizes, bore and stroke. I told them I'd like to consider a 73 to 75 degree cam, although I was not familiar with the nomenclature and would be open to suggestions or an explanation of that method of sizing camshafts.

 

I was told "You don't have the engine to use a cam that big." Not "Well, you would be better served with XXX cam, those cams are too hot for that motor." or "We don't have a profile that will fit your needs." I was given no reasons why. I was given no suggestion as to what would be appropriate for my usage and other modifications.

 

I have called Isky before, and he was much more helpful. I know where my money will go in the future.

[josh817]

Ok, I just called up the Kamerari rep here in the US. I got exactly the same treatment, and I ASKED for a suggested cam profile, giving my cylinder head flow rates, valve sizes, bore and stroke. I told them I'd like to consider a 73 to 75 degree cam, although I was not familiar with the nomenclature and would be open to suggestions or an explanation of that method of sizing camshafts.

 

I was told "You don't have the engine to use a cam that big." Not "Well, you would be better served with XXX cam, those cams are too hot for that motor." or "We don't have a profile that will fit your needs." I was given no reasons why. I was given no suggestion as to what would be appropriate for my usage and other modifications.

 

I have called Isky before, and he was much more helpful. I know where my money will go in the future.

Thank you! Exactly! Another words, you can't buy it. I thought I was starting to think I was the only one who got that treatment for some weird reason. If anyone were hellbent on that cam, like I was before getting talked out of it, yes they would push to find an alternative way of getting that particular grind.

 

One thing to note though before I nonchalantly jump to conclusions, there are two other sources that I can think of that will sell Kameari stuff and that is RHDJapan and ZCCJDM. ZCCJDM I think I emailed and they responded in a much more customer friendly way, I was asking about some pistons for sale though on a different board that the ZCCJDM owner was on or something like that. He was still short of words, but I wouldn't expect more from anyone else. I think Tony and I are the only ones that type like an entire page, sucking up that bandwidth.

Edited May 7, 2010 by josh817

[woldson]

sigh..

[josh817]

sigh..

Why the sigh sir?

Edited May 7, 2010 by josh817

[Daeron]

This speaks to the other thing that I wanted to mention - I personally think that the fact that the vendor won't sell certain cams to "just anybody" is not at all a bad reflection on them. When you get into some of the more "extreme" profiles you really need to understand how everything in the valve train works together, how to make sure that your head is compatible, and understand how to make it compatible if it isn't already. If you are expecting to just buy a "kit" that bolts in, then you don't know enough to buy certain cams. On a 30-something year old head with completely unknown history there is no way in hell that you can put together a kit that will a guarantee a trouble free install.

 

For instance - let's say you want a .560" lift profile. That can be done, but not with stock valve guides and stem seals. Who do you think is going to get a bad rap when you install their cam and start destroying you valve stem seals because you didn't realize that you need proper clearance to the seal at max lift? In general I think it's good practice to limit your exposure with such products to people who can demonstrate that they understand what it will take to make it work properly. If all you do is whine about why they are being so arrogant, then you probably aren't that guy.

 

 

Josh--I think the sigh comes up for two reasons.

 

One, you seem to fail to grasp the point that Tim was trying to make in what I quoted: namely, that the radical cams you are looking at will only be sold to a customer when that customer approaches Kamerai and says "I have this engine, with these power goals in mind, this is what my prep work is, that is how the valvetrain is set up, what cam should I go for?" and the combination described matches what the cam was built for. In other words, you need to approach them NEEDING their cam to finish you off, not using their cam as a keystone. (Interesting Side idea: Keystone Kamshafts??)

 

the second reason, I will be blunt about: your self-serving attitude is overwhelming your sense of decency because of your injured pride on the "They won't sell me their camshaft?!?" issue. There is an attitude that is deemed healthy in the US; my dad calls it WIII-FM because he was made to attend a seminar run by an MBA once that used that metaphor. It is a radio station that Sucessful People listen to.. WIII-FM stands for What Is In It For Me?

 

When that attitude rules your life, you can pretty much punch out in my book; I have no respect for anyone who truly puts themselves ahead of all others, at all cost. I would like to think that ethic is present to some degree in most decent people. Josh, I think these guys are trying to find a nice way of saying you are being too much of a grab-ass.

 

No one is judging you on these grounds (at least, I am not; simply offering what I intend to be constructive criticism) but lets look at some Elecbrity Drama over the last few months.

 

What you are (were) proposing is not unlike Jay Leno taking the Tonight Show back. Is it wrong? Not really... is it right? No, probably not.

 

You know me well enough to know I'm not trying to punch you in the gut here, so please bear that in mind. I understand your real motivations behind this whole posting are to expand your own understanding of the breathing characteristics of the engine, so that you could know yourself what that shape translates into... but honestly, I am going to wager that you might find best results if you learn Japanese.

[Xnke]

Daeron, I *did* ask for a suggested cam profile, and got a similar response.

 

Really, it think it is more that distributor than anything, and like Alan has said, he's never had any problems calling Mori-san at KEW in japan. I'd do so, but I don't speak japanese, and right now do not need to buy. It'd be bench racing at best.

[josh817]

Mmmm I like it when people put it clear a. I think maybe I didn't see Tim's post because I don't recall it until seeing your quote just now, or maybe it totally just left my mind. Personally speaking though, I still hold on the regards to if you make very few sales per year, you better cherish the opportunity to grab a customer whenever you can regardless of how I phrase my email or call.

 

When I see my father conduct business, as a man who doesn't necessarily have a huge booming shop with new customers flowing through all the time, he welcomes anyone. Yes sometimes we stumble over a few people who decide to have us do work and then say they can't pay, and those are the types that you avoid later on and just say "There isn't enough room in the shop, all the spots are taken right now". I remember a guy came in and very directly said he needed a broken wheel stud replaced. When you tried to talk to him about what model MG he had just to be good to him, he would have nothing of it. Not really a bad impression of him to us, but wasn't really polite either. Did we say "take your car somewhere else"? No, because that makes us look like a bunch of ingrates. As an automotive service man, its best you understand that your customer is your most valuable asset. It shouldn't matter if I wanted to spend $1300 to buy that cam, just to smack some guy outside the head with it like a bat. Its business, the distributor needs to focus on sales and getting that sale made (especially when you don't have that many sales of that product in the first place) rather than seeing if the dude is worthy of running that cam, examining his wording, and whether he will make a good home for this product. Its a car part, not a puppy adoption center, that's how it works.

 

I don't know if I fully understand what you mean by grab ass. I know I'm going around picking information and compiling it, is that what you mean? Or do you mean just the fact that I posted this thread? I definitely see what you mean by self-serving and getting blown away by being denied service. It sucks because first off there are people here saying I'm morally wrong for trying to solve my own problem, even though I can't even get my hands on the cam in the first place (already discussed above how phrasing shouldn't matter). Then of course you saw the clash between me liking to do my own work, get my own **** done, etc. clash with denial of service, which leads to me going ok I'll do it myself. Obviously, wrong approach if I'm looking to make an exact duplicate. My rage blinded me, because I didn't really care morally. Honestly, I still don't, because I believe they turned down business, turned away the profit, so I'm not hurting some guys family by making my own. If it was really such an outrageous deal, they need to find a new distributor that won't shoo business away. Of course I still think, if you don't serve me, I'll serve myself. I won't just sit here and go woe me, why are those Japanese so mean to me.

 

I appreciate you being a little more gentle with the criticism. I know Tony gets into what he is writing about but I seriously think you know... he scared everyone out of here, turned this into a moral discussion, got me to change my mind and just go with a different cam, yet it persists. Went I bit over the top. I didn't appreciate him pretty much pooping all over my parade, big time, and my parade wasn't copying someones cam profile either. I also didn't like how he comes up as I said before "on his high horse", being the big whig. It gets deeper then what we see just on the surface because one can quickly realize with the user title of Wiki and thousands of posts, the man is respected on this board, but that doesn't change my mindset if I think someone is wrong, not necessarily completely correct, or misleading. At some points in this thread I was getting the impression that the argument was either veering off or he was running out of things to accuse me for when he started attacking my examples and how in a clear example I said $275 for a cam sale, when the point was, as long as you are cheaper then the competition (that being less then $1300, maybe you sell for $1000).

 

Even after discussing with Dad (he's a critic of me too a lot of times testing my whit at the shop) and my brother in law who graduate with a manufacturing engineer degree and a masters in like manufacturing business/statistics, think that $1300 isn't to fit the price market nor are their actions when it comes to sales. I know when I argue that myself it kind of looks like here is some 19 year kid, arguing with a dude who has the "wise factor", you know that saying where like age trumps all. Older, wiser, more experienced. I understand that Tony likes to challenge resilient teens that think they are going to outdo him, as him and I talked about in some PM's where a kid who took statistics thought he knew everything and consequently more then Tony. However, this isn't the case. Going to seminars on manufacturing and markets and being older, isn't going to put you at a higher level then a person with a masters degree on the subject. Not to mention having support from my father on the situation too, which is good since he typically thinks I don't speak up enough when I disagree or have a different opinion. He himself who owns a shop, has done his fair share of endurance racing with SVRA and sprint racing with CVAR. As well as being friends and being commended by Kas Kastner on his work towards Triumph's, to the point that Kas wrote about his work in his book. You see, I too can write off big names too to show that I am not just some young gun Joe Shmoe who is disagreeing with the Bonneville Wiki Man. I think I'm riding just as high as Tony is, on the horse, however it never showed because I didn't flaunt this background until now.

 

I'm lucky to have someone like you, Woldson, who would give me criticism and also show some of the good side of me, especially when I was doing my motor build thread. It keeps moral up, despite all the run ins I had which were caused by me just not knowing enough about these motors. Had to do the reading, and just figure things out myself when it came to trying to alternate parts and stuff which became a very annoying and worry some problem at the time when I was already in debt with my momma just for the engine. Tony gives out some very useful information and criticism. I find that a lot of times its harder to understand but thats because he types in that mystic, old wise person sort of way. As you guys previously stated, being the reason why I wasn't understanding the full picture. I view this as some little interwebs tizzy. Had a disagreement, hopefully I'm not like banned from speaking with Tony or receiving free advice. I took what he said personally at first but now I'm just like meh no big deal. To avoid rogue threads from occuring I think it requires more time, thinking, and better wording on my part. I actually see a pattern happening here with my posts on HybridZ, where if I post right away without like thinking a good 10 minutes at least over it, I find myself going back and editing, or being too late and something flared up.

 

LOL I can be an unintentional troll sometimes.

[Daeron]

Listen, Josh, I've learned a LOT of HARD effing lessons, and none of that learning has done me too much damned good in the end, but one thing I have learned to hold highest is this: dickheads push us farther than ANYTHING else. That is a lesson learned from (and taught to) four full blood brothers over thirty years (and counting.)

 

America has a bunch of problems, and a handful of those that are the most fundamental, cross all borders and divides between "types" of people. Tony and I are from very disparate types of people (about as broad as you can get and still both be white males) but we both seem to agree pretty closely regarding some of the issues regarding our own (American) problems with humility, mutual respect, and self respect. I say this based on some pretty deep private communications sent over the years... I have wanted to get to know this jerk who appeals to my intellect like no other jerk I;ve ever met. you gotta remember, I cut my teeth on zcar.com back when I was one of the little first generation of internet teenagers in lust with Z-car (a lifetime of experience notwithstanding) and knowing absolutely jack outside of what my dad (amateur) taught me, most of which was hearsay and false... (or at best, misled) I thought Tony was teh basement kitty!!!!!!!

 

The reason things went so incredibly amplified in criticizing you, was an attempt to communicate to you the depth of the real offense in even suggesting publicly duplicating this. Or if you prefer, publicly suggesting duplicating it.

 

I said grab-ass indicating what I call a "me-first" mentality that is widely championed (at least it has in my American Tale) here. Obviously everyone has to look out for Number One, but looking out for yourself doesn't mean putting others out of their own, and this thread really did kinda rapidly spiral out into pointless discussion that ALL really made you look bad; much worse than your intent was. I dig your intent; I understand it, share it, and I intend on shadowing your efforts, asking piercing questions, and growing every bit you do.. but this is software piracy. It is trade infringement, it is copying off someone else's paper.

 

But don't lose sight of the fact that the ONLY reason any of it came up is because your critics all know you fairly well, and we al respect you, and foremost, we all actually think you might heed the criticism. So few of those who might show ill tendencies (even here on hybridz) can even be talked to.. all they know is their own myopic viewpoint. You (and I would like to think, myself as well) can even be approached with this sort of character assessment and not completely flip out and get defensive; SOMEWHERE we've got to fight the fight to improve our society. It can only be the battles we choose to fight because we have a chance of winning.

 

The next step is to build a motor with a huge, hogged out head (intake AND EXHAUST, we always seem to undercut the exhaust compared to those guys over there) and set that mondo, 2 inch primary to 4 inch pipe to some crazy spouted muffler exhaust, and get a rebello cam into it, and hit that glass ceiling. Walk up to the Wako people with that longblock and that dyno chart in hand and they'll sell you the 75s and pay for the interpreter to make sure you understand how to use it.

 

 

Also, I'm not sure if you quite understand that they price this camshaft only at this level specifically to filter out almost all of us from even thinking about it.. they don't want to deal with you, unless that price is of no importance to you in your quest. Dave Rebello sets his prices the same way, your dad does the same thing in his own way. (I used to work for a veterinarian who was much more adventurous than your average urban family vet when it comes to surgery.. he would willingly (and competently) perform ocular, abdominal and thoracic, and orthopedic surgeries that most local guys would refer to the one local specialist, but a handful of old school and/or nerdy vets did themselves. His price schedule was literally nothing more or less than a ten year old version of the local specialist's. My point is, he provided the people with a non board certified (AAHA approved but not blinged out to be a specialist ) and less expensive option; some took it, some paid the premium, and he proudly supported anyone who wanted to send it out to Dr. Roy. Sometimes you price for convenience, sometimes you price for exclusivity.

 

If you keep nagging them, they might push the price up to $1500.

Edited May 9, 2010 by Daeron

[Tony D]

"Personally speaking though, I still hold on the regards to if you make very few sales per year, you better cherish the opportunity to grab a customer whenever you can regardless of how I phrase my email or call"

 

From the Seller's Point of View: Not if the guy is an incompetent boob who will use your part in a misapplied way, then trash the results all around ruining your reputation.

 

Is this YOUR case Josh? Who knows? Would YOU take the chance at your reputation being smeared by just ONE incompetent person not getting the results they wanted and then started badmouthing the product you KNOW works IF APPLIED CORRECTLY?

 

OS Gikken sells their heads (reference the SEMA Thread) but you got to buck up $100,000K for the engine that goes under it as well. Why? Same reason: we put our name on it, we won't leave it to you to muck it up and blame us.

 

Be offended or don't, I don't care. You just don't get it, this is NOT a volume business, it's a reputation business. One joker out there can ruin it for your operation. Prudent conservatorship of a business knows when to refuse service. Not giving the store away enmasse to try to make a volume margin profit.

 

Sadly, your attitude is endemic of American-Educated Business Majors: Sell Sell Sell.Sell at all costs. Never consider some sales aren't worth the negatives they present.

In Japan, the model for doing business is different, and there is a reason there are shops around still doing this stuff 20+ years after the last engine went off the production line.

 

Selling is not a panacea. Ask GM / Chrysler what happens when you base your business cash flows on continued volume sales...

Edited May 9, 2010 by Tony D

[josh817]

I really think that if you built a dead motor, you and everyone else would understand that one piece of the motor (the cam) was not the killing factor. It was prevalent in ZRedBaron's motor when he made like 180hp on his first stroker but we understood it wasn't like... Schneider's fault for his cam or whatever he used.

 

Thread started out ratty, however in the first post, at the very end in bold large letters, questions were being asked which showed the roots of the thought process.

 

I think that the only way to fix the whole "don't ruin my product thing" is to become respectable like Tony, performing Bonneville runs. If I were in their shoes and so concerned about ruining my name (funny part is the distributor said "Who told you about the Wako 75s" as if, Americans weren't suppose to know the name in the first place, so what is there to ruin) I would only sell to well known and successful people to protect my work.

 

Oh well. Work must continue. I sent the head over to the machine shop to have them press out the old guides on Saturday. I need to purchase valves, springs, retainers, and camshaft sometime soon. At the very least I need to get valves because Rick our machine shop man is going to find some seats that will work with the big valves from another application. I don't know if we will choose to use a different motors guides or if I will just get regular Nissan ones and have them machined. I need to ask how our other machine shop dude performs flow bench tests. Is it done by hour, like dyno time, or what? I don't know. I have a plan in mind but I don't know if it is a scientifically stable mind set. I'm going to have to do more reading. Once I get far enough along in my build, I will make a thread on it with a zillion pictures and all.

[Tony D]

Yes, refusing to concede they may have a valuable point in their core market is just to way to go. After all, they only go where they were by selling selling selling worldwide, didn't they?

 

Oh, waitaminit, who is seeking out whom here?

 

Wonder why?

 

Bonneville doesn't come into this as much as you want it to, my example of the stock bodies car is simply being ignored either through ignorance, or the realization that a 0.465Cd car with 20+ sq ft frontal area might have a tad more HP than one would care to admit.

 

And yes, Mickey Thompson did so poorly based on his unrespectable performance at Bonneville. Great Example.

 

Remember,I'm not the one selling parts here. I have no interest in selling my parts. You can ask me for my profiles and I will tell you the same thing: Bugger Off.

 

I guess that makes me a bad guy too. Or maybe it means I'm interested in somthing more than money with the things I do mechanically on the car.

 

There is more to life than money.

[woldson]

There is more to life than money.

 

Amen to that!!

 

Josh, you still gots some living to do, file this one in the back, it may make sense later.

 

TonyD, lead a horse to water......

[Tony D]

Yep, even borewater take a while to cook off the soda...

[josh817]

I'm mentioning Bonneville because didn't you go? What was the youtube video you had. You know, I'm trying to be really moderate and swell with you by showing you some respect and acknowledging you have a lot more track/salt flat time then I do and you know a lot of big namers who have helped you over the years. Don't turn it around on me, Tony. Come on. The whole point of the statement was Wako and others are purposely set outside of the common market and like you guys are saying, high priced, because they probably know the only people who will seek them out are ones that are big into Z cars like you, Tony.

 

Lol it appears I screwed up the flow of things by writing about these people, so now its that much closer to not being a "secluded" society. Drats.

 

Hey... Its mothers day! What are we doing on here?!

Edited May 9, 2010 by josh817

[Tony D]

In Japan those places are simply names in the telephone book. Okamura tells me I was VERY close to Kameari's office when I was in my exclusion-hell of the Kawagoe Dai-Ichi Hotel over last Thanksgiving.

 

They are advertizing in the USA due to migrant population and demand. They have their price, and they don't make bones about it. That's the way it is in Japan.

 

If you want to deal with the Japanese, you have to start acting like them. They don't know me from Adam, but I know how to properly introduce myself in a respectful and culturally proper way when there.

 

It's like anything else: Deal with an Intermediary (Distributor) and you will get a bad taste in your mouth. That is what my JOB entails, going all over Asia putting out reputational fires caused by Distributors who handle our product. It's what I've done since 1994 as a matter of fact. Unless you are dealing with them DIRECTLY you takes your chances.

 

And you never answered the question asked: if you were in their shoes, knowing your reputation in a new emerging market could be totally TRASHED by ONE young guy who's quick to fly to the internet and blab how terribly this or that product performed....would YOU sell to him? Or would you sell to someone you have a relationship with, who knows to come to you directly for support and assistance/guidance.

 

You are doing this crap all 'lone wolf' and they know it. You have no credibility with them, you are, frankly a BIG risk to sell to, and by not selling to you the payoff likely will be less damage than if they DID sell to you and something went wrong that you blamed on them.

 

Trust me, I SEE THIS EVERY DAY WHERE I WORK! Someone blames our product for being crap. Then I get there, and write up a 23 page report on items that are contained and spelled out in OUR INSTALLATION MANUAL which were NOT FOLLOWED.

 

So then who's fault is it? Our 'piece of crap product' or the idiot who installed it wrong? End result is the same, a lot of people saying our stuff doesn't work---but it's not our fault we have idiots for customers sometimes (or that our customers hire idiot engineering companies to incompetently handle our installations!)

 

You are not entitled to buy something if you have the money. It is the sellers perogative to not sell to you, not answer your questions, and to generally be an ass if he so chooses. But you haven't talked to the horses' mouth....have you? But a piece of advice here: Build up a reputation built on SUCCESS first. Till you have a proven track record, there is more potential downside to dealing with you than upside!

 

Remember the guys who ran early Competition Datsuns with the most success weren't guys with teenagers running the show, they were established racing teams with proven track records!

 

Hell, I've talked with people on the phone who wouldn't give me the time of day. I gave them a list of things to go check out....and next thing you know I'm having hour long telephone conversations with people I've only read about in magazines.

 

If you think getting the cold shoulder is a big deal, it has to be because your young. I'm 45 and people still give me the cold shoulder...but I can back up what I'm proposing to do with a proven track record. You don't command respect simply by existing. Nobody does. You EARN respect by your actions and track record. If you have none, don't be surprised when nobody takes you seriously, or gives you any second look. It's the way it is. Better learn to deal with it. Another bit of advice: whining about how terrible they are for not giving you the time of day doesn't glean any alms from them later on, either!

[josh817]

The only way your reputation would make it to Japan is if you're pretty big, I'd say big enough to get in some sort of media that would be published over there. That's a bold thing to ask for, just to be able to by a product. I haven't expanded on other products, however, $165 for a timing chain, $1400 for a "GT Seat", $60 for valve collets (never seen a problem with stock ones), etc. Are these priced so high, to exclude the lower budget scums of American society like myself? Is a seat going to give them a bad rep? What about a timing chain? Maybe valve collets? I'm going to have to pull this out for a second here:

 

Now that thats out of my system, lets compare to another vehicle I'm having a hard time understanding, the BMW 1602/2002.

$690 for a Schrick 316º or 336º camshaft

$85/ea for billet rocker arm (you need 8)

 

I think its a bit more then priced for the market and keeping out cheapo's. I understand the whole thing, price high to prevent the biggest is the best people but there is a point that you have to say yah right. Schneider will sell their biggest profile all day fora 5th of the price, thats what draws the people, however is Schneider's reputation horrible? No... ok well maybe its not the best in the Z car world. What about Isky? You keep talking about Ron, must think highly of him, does he have to charge $1300 to be the best? No one here seems to think that. Oh and he sounds like a nice enough dude to talk you down to a profile that would work better for your intended setup.

 

That whole Japanese cultural spirit crap isn't buying anything in my books. I understand its far different then our society, a lot of the times for the better, with the whole respect and honor thing but let me be the first to scream hypocrisy. The distributor I talked to was Japanese himself, not and American sitting at a desk. This man had well known buddies back in Japan, he knows all the Z car shops, etc. Wheres MY respect, where is HIS honor? Can't be found. I bet you the only way you would find it is if you were Japanese yourself, or like we discussed, a bad ass in Z car society. Just how big a bad ass does it take? I haven't a clue.

 

When you look at the Apple Ipod, the video ones, lol they're probably going to be extinct soon with all the iphones. Anyway, I saw an article once where they priced out all the parts in the ipod, showed where to buy them, came to like under $150 for parts. When these things were selling for $400, was I paying for labor? Doubt it. Was Apple trying to protect their company name by pricing high? Doubt it. Actually the answer is just because the demand was high, therefore they knew they could get away with it. Get away with what? Gouging. I don't blame these companies for gouging, they probably don't make many annual sales with their prices and honor codes. If the product is of good quality, which it undoubtedly is, then as a customer you shouldn't run into problems which make you purchase another of the product. It does bring customers back in to buy other products though, so thats good, but once they have everything they want sales will drop off.

 

At Dad's shop, he can sell you a lot of cool stuff, for instance one piece axles that he designed. They went for A LOT of money, subsequently the only people who bought were serious racers or guys throwing in more powerful motors into a Spitfire (or anything else that may break an axle). Did he treat his customers like a boob? No. Dad would be an example of playing the proper role of a company like Kameari. He designed a lot of cool stuff, not surprising at all that a lot of it made its way to England. The axles made their way to England for the Brits who were running the fuel inject motors and who still thrash those British cars around. He answered questions with open arms and still does... sometimes too open! Eventually the demand died off. All the hard core guys purchased their axles, they weren't breaking anymore so no need to buy new ones, and that was that. It got to the point where he couldn't market them anymore so he gave the plans to Summers Brothers.

 

I say let them sulk in their probable low sales. They won't be having my purchase, so that probably puts them at like 99 cam sales per year (exaggeration! don't pounce!) When it comes down to being sustainable, you have to think outside of the box. That means drop your Samurai Japanese culture and innovate your thinking so you can spread to another market. As long as they are in their own little boxed off world of Japan, which only has X amount of L engine owners, I don't think any major expansion will occur. Sales are low, prices are high, you probably don't need a ton of sales to make a profit. Being prideful and overzealous of yourself and your culture to where it actually hurts your sales, is silly. "Yah but they also have Europe and Australia, they're super respectable and have honor", biggest market for Z's was..? That's where you need to be emphasizing after your Japan market.

 

Lets not forget the intentions of Nissan when they first came to America. Affordability was a big thing! The Toyota 2000GT was retardedly priced before the Z was introduced, sales were not great. What about all that Japanese prestige?! They went from selling affordable go fast vehicles to ridiculously priced parts? Talk about some change. Not to mention, if copying someone elses design (of course not exactly, that would be infringement) is such a big honor code breaker then can we please back the truck up to Hitachi/Mikuni carbs, the design of the Roadster and the Z, as well as the motor. Honor must not have been a big deal, when trying to build one of the most successful automobile company in the world. Then again, I guess you could always say these shops never want to be that big. I wouldn't blame them though. They probably share the same mind set as my father. I over heard him say the other day ago that the biggest complement he had was when a customer said they loved his shop because it reminded them of the old shops back in the 50's and 60's where people would come over on Saturday and talk cars, drink beer, etc. Like a mini car show every Saturday, its great.

 

As far as outrageous pricing and piss poor distributor service from some, agree to disagree, and I'll agree to make the simple statement "prices are high because its an exclusive go fast product".

 

 

PS:

And you never answered the question asked: if you were in their shoes, knowing your reputation in a new emerging market could be totally TRASHED by ONE young guy who's quick to fly to the internet and blab how terribly this or that product performed....would YOU sell to him? Or would you sell to someone you have a relationship with, who knows to come to you directly for support and assistance/guidance.

I think that the only way to fix the whole "don't ruin my product thing" is to become respectable like Tony, performing Bonneville runs. If I were in their shoes and so concerned about ruining my name (funny part is the distributor said "Who told you about the Wako 75s" as if, Americans weren't suppose to know the name in the first place, so what is there to ruin) I would only sell to well known and successful people to protect my work.

 

Also, did this man make whatever camshaft company look bad? Are they never going to sell to him again, after he posted in his blog about a cam breaking? Who's at fault? Who will be blamed? Seems to contradict with whats being said in this thread, but that's ok because I'll buy from Isky. If it does happen to break, I'll buy another from him, because it won't cost me $2600 total. Either they're a bunch of boobs who really do worry about their reputation being soiled by people who can't afford their products, or the whole reputation thing is partially/fully incorrect logic. I guarantee you, they sold to that guy again. "Yah they did because he didn't point the fault at them", neither would I if I snapped a camshaft or rounded off lobes, I'd probably just think back to ":[ Did I forget to add a bottle of ZDDP to my oil 1000 miles ago?" or whatever lol.

Edited May 12, 2010 by josh817

[HS30-H]

I haven't expanded on other products, however, $165 for a timing chain, $1400 for a "GT Seat", $60 for valve collets (never seen a problem with stock ones), etc. Are these priced so high, to exclude the lower budget scums of American society like myself?

 

I'm not going to talk about all this "exclusivity" stuff, as - in my experience - it doesn't really exist, but you really ought not to be putting such words as "scum" into the mouths of people whom I count as friends, and whom I KNOW don't think anything of the sort. You need to reign your emotions in a little and watch what you write.

 

Most of what you are complaining about seems to have been based on poor communication ( on both sides ) with a couple of USA-based "distributors" mixed with some exceptional misconception on your side. You appear to be bitter at being 'rejected', but you still don't seem to understand some very basic socio-economic truths...

 

First of all, I see you writing about $1400 for a 'GT Seat' and I wonder if you have even the most basic grasp on the economics behind that price? Have you paid no thought to the fact that it is hand made in Japan ( ie high labour rates for a limited-production, HAND MADE item ) and would need to be imported to the USA ( incurring fairly high transport charges, then taxes and import duties on top ) before any 'distributor' even started to think about making a margin on it? How much real-world profit do you think Kameari Japan has built into the price that they charge for retail in Japan, let alone what they might charge their 'distributor' for it ( you might well be surprised at normal Japanese retail profit margins )? You get a fairly poor exchange rate between the $US and JPY too, which you also don't seem to be taking into account. In fact it's the exact opposite of the situation you mentioned where your father was selling axles to the UK market for British cars ( they were importing them not just because they were good, but also because at $2US for each £1STG they were cheap too... ). That's just simple economics. Kameari parts are not extraordinarily or outrageously cheap FOR THE JAPANESE MARKET. If they were, they would not sell, and somebody else would fill the gap....

 

I also see you repeating endlessly the "$1300" price for a Kameari camshaft, apparently without you completely understanding what you actually get in that 'kit'. Are you quite sure that you don't need to investigate this point any more thoroughly? I think if you truly got your head around what you are talking about then you might be a little red faced. Mind you, with your quote about valve collets ( "never seen a problem with stock ones" ) I don't think there's much chance of you really understanding anything about Kameari's products any time soon.

 

A few days ago I was feeling a little sorry for you, and I thought you just needed a little guidance and a bit of a better perspective. I'm feeling very little sympathy now. This latest post is embarrassing. You're spending time and energy posting sarcasm and invective when you'd be well advised to spend that time and energy trying to understand both what it is you actually need and what it is you really want. ANY camshaft - no matter where it is from - is only one part of a jigsaw puzzle. I don't see much talk about all the other parts in that jigsaw puzzle, so I'm wondering what it is you are actually trying to build? Have you been asked about such details when you talked to these USA-based "distributors"?

 

One last suggestion: Get closer to source. Contact Mr Shigeo Mori at Kameari Engine Works in Japan ( their e-mail address is on their Japanese web site ) and ask him to quote you a shipped price for the camshaft you say that you wanted to buy. If you explain that you were not able to buy it through one of his USA-based 'distributors', then I think you might get a different - more positive - reaction from him. Have your credit card ready if he tells you that you can buy it direct from him. You need to put your money where your mouth is.

 

Alan T.

[Tony D]

Oh, I just wanted to make sure I read it right, so then, with your latest quote you REITERATED that you said the following:

 

"I would only sell to well known and successful people to protect my work."

 

Who was it mentioning hipocrasy in this thread again?

 

"You have to be big enough to be published in some of their magazines"---you mean like feature articles, or simply one of the many recurrent faces in feature articles? I guess I'm famous there then. I didn't realize it was so hard.

 

Josh, you really need to grow up.