What sort of information do cam grinders ask for when you want a custom grind?

[josh817]

Yep thats what I said, because I understand the whole "sell to people who you can depend on that won't screw you up" but I don't think that is the case here, as I explained.

 

You and I both know there is a clear difference from being famous and from being well known, enough to be a customer of these people. I said being published in some sort of media, whether it be an article about how your car won in some sort of prestigious race or maybe about how you did something unique with your car/motor. Obviously something that makes you stand out. Like I said you'd either have to get into some sort of media, or maybe at like a car show a dude from Japan or with connections to Japan sees your car, likes it, spreads the word.

 

I'll get back to this after my test soooo.... be right back!

[Tony D]

Kinda like having a 'proven track record'.... Don't be bitter you haven't done anything they feel is noteworthy, it's just the way it is. I think Alan is making some good points as well. There are a lot of things you simply misunderstand, and therefore place blame wrongly.

 

That is what I meant by you needing to grow up. Blaming someone without all the information is foolish. Usually that passes with experience and time. Mostly time.

[josh817]

I'm not going to talk about all this "exclusivity" stuff, as - in my experience - it doesn't really exist, but you really ought not to be putting such words as "scum" into the mouths of people whom I count as friends, and whom I KNOW don't think anything of the sort. You need to reign your emotions in a little and watch what you write.

 

Most of what you are complaining about seems to have been based on poor communication ( on both sides ) with a couple of USA-based "distributors" mixed with some exceptional misconception on your side. You appear to be bitter at being 'rejected', but you still don't seem to understand some very basic socio-economic truths...

 

First of all, I see you writing about $1400 for a 'GT Seat' and I wonder if you have even the most basic grasp on the economics behind that price? Have you paid no thought to the fact that it is hand made in Japan ( ie high labour rates for a limited-production, HAND MADE item ) and would need to be imported to the USA ( incurring fairly high transport charges, then taxes and import duties on top ) before any 'distributor' even started to think about making a margin on it? How much real-world profit do you think Kameari Japan has built into the price that they charge for retail in Japan, let alone what they might charge their 'distributor' for it ( you might well be surprised at normal Japanese retail profit margins )? You get a fairly poor exchange rate between the $US and JPY too, which you also don't seem to be taking into account. In fact it's the exact opposite of the situation you mentioned where your father was selling axles to the UK market for British cars ( they were importing them not just because they were good, but also because at $2US for each £1STG they were cheap too... ). That's just simple economics. Kameari parts are not extraordinarily or outrageously cheap FOR THE JAPANESE MARKET. If they were, they would not sell, and somebody else would fill the gap....

 

I also see you repeating endlessly the "$1300" price for a Kameari camshaft, apparently without you completely understanding what you actually get in that 'kit'. Are you quite sure that you don't need to investigate this point any more thoroughly? I think if you truly got your head around what you are talking about then you might be a little red faced. Mind you, with your quote about valve collets ( "never seen a problem with stock ones" ) I don't think there's much chance of you really understanding anything about Kameari's products any time soon.

 

A few days ago I was feeling a little sorry for you, and I thought you just needed a little guidance and a bit of a better perspective. I'm feeling very little sympathy now. This latest post is embarrassing. You're spending time and energy posting sarcasm and invective when you'd be well advised to spend that time and energy trying to understand both what it is you actually need and what it is you really want. ANY camshaft - no matter where it is from - is only one part of a jigsaw puzzle. I don't see much talk about all the other parts in that jigsaw puzzle, so I'm wondering what it is you are actually trying to build? Have you been asked about such details when you talked to these USA-based "distributors"?

 

One last suggestion: Get closer to source. Contact Mr Shigeo Mori at Kameari Engine Works in Japan ( their e-mail address is on their Japanese web site ) and ask him to quote you a shipped price for the camshaft you say that you wanted to buy. If you explain that you were not able to buy it through one of his USA-based 'distributors', then I think you might get a different - more positive - reaction from him. Have your credit card ready if he tells you that you can buy it direct from him. You need to put your money where your mouth is.

 

Alan T.

1: The argument has gotten out of order to such extent that extreme exaggeration and sarcasm is being put to use. Takes two to tango as my mother always says, don't hold the shield up for Tony. He can hold his own ground plus putting the fault all over on my side of the table wouldn't be fair in the first place, however once again my mother would always say life is unfair and continue the punishment. Don't forget, I was being accused for bashing American engineering and stuff in this thread, somehow. Before you start shouting at me, read everything and address all issues.

 

2: I totally agree with the communication thing that you and Tony talk about. Admittedly, I have a hard time translating the message in some of Tony's posts and it has caused some problems here. Some big face palm moments and such. And yes, I am very bitter about being rejected. When I did my little write up with all the pictures, later on a found a link to it on the Japanese dudes blog, laughing at us/me. One thing that makes me rage the most is seeing someone laugh at me because I can't do what he's done and I praise what he is able to achieve. Its not because of money, its not because of the lack of skill (well for my case that may be true but for a lot of people here in the states), its because you can't get a hold of it, if you go through certain distributors. I definitely agree with you that if you call them up directly chances are they will sell. The fact that you have a lousy distributor here in the first place means you need to get rid of them.

 

3: Kameari seats were priced with shipping in mind. Seats probably weren't the best example, however the other things such as collets and chain, still a dumb price. Collets can be stronger and lightweight, however they don't advertise light weight and if they seriously were something special weight wise, they would of jumped on the chance to list it out on the "what makes this cool" section. Stronger, lightweight, and adjusting the installed spring height are the only contributing factors that can make you go woohoo about collets. Its really quite a simple part... don't make it sound like there is some overly complicated role it plays within the motor and that I'm skipping over it all. Agreeably parts are priced for the Japanese market, which would work along side with "the go fast parts are exclusive and priced accordingly".

 

4: The $1300 was for Wako, its $1100 for Kameari. Wako, was camshaft only. The distributor I talked to, was one of Wako, however Xnke took care of the Kameari one. Quit talking to me like I'm ignorant.

 

So for like the 3rd or 4th attempt to stop the madness, can we atleast agree to disagree? Can the statement "the go fast parts are exclusive and priced accordingly" not be good enough?

 

If not, what exactly is the agenda?

[woldson]

I smell a rat.

 

 

Seems like whomever may be feeding your self indulgent side may want to step forward and not be such a chickens...

 

 

Your sharp josh, however, too much has changed to go unnoticed.

 

Your rep was still intacked, however, your choices now can have lasting affects, think long and hard.

[Xnke]

Yep, Rat here. I did call Kameari, and did get the aforementioned treatment. I'm not worried about it, because while if they had made a suggestion as to what cam would be appropriate, and quoted me a price, I very likely would have seriously considered it. I do have enough cash set aside that if they had said 800 or 1200 or whatever price, then I COULD have whipped out the card and read out the numbers. I really don't want to spend that money though, as it's my only backup for if TSHTF.

 

Do I need such a cam? No. I don't. Is my car going to be a full time road racer? No, it's not.

 

BUT, as Tony has said, knowing when to NOT make the sale is just as important as when to make a sale. If I am not going to be a profitable customer, then don't sell to me, no matter how much money I offer. I'm a no-name, no-background customer, asking for a pretty steep cam, but also asking for a suggestion of a smaller one. I'm giving the appearance of a waffler. The distributor, I'm sure, picked that up.

 

I saw him turning me down as a potential customer. He saw me as a garage engine rebuilder who doesn't really know what he wants and probably won't be satisfied with what he gets.

 

And yeah, Alan is right on the kameari kit...you get a lot of stuff for 1100$. PLUS you get the support of KEW when things aren't quite perfect. KEW tech support alone is worth 1100$ to me...

[josh817]

I smell a rat.

 

 

Seems like whomever may be feeding your self indulgent side may want to step forward and not be such a chickens...

 

 

Your sharp josh, however, too much has changed to go unnoticed.

 

Your rep was still intacked, however, your choices now can have lasting affects, think long and hard.

What to you mean Woldson? I'm aware I keep drilling myself deeper by I'm not going to just stop posting in my own thread. The agreement grounds I set out, are more then favorable, I don't think its something too far to accept. So my question is, if those "terms" can't be accepted, what exactly is the agenda here? What will it take to end the conversation? My little reputation I have on here may end up being tattered but for the last week I've been trying to end this. Even if it does become tattered, its ok because this is simply 2 different views on a subject. If its going to hinder people from seeing the full me when I do another build thread (working on it), then oh well. I'm not going to let the intrawebs - a series of connected tubes - get me down. Just have to keep chugging along.

Edited May 13, 2010 by josh817

[woldson]

So my question is, if those "terms" can't be accepted, what exactly is the agenda here?

 

 

That is only yours to know.

 

 

 

What will it take to end the conversation?

 

You and the power you hold.

 

 

 

 

 

Both comments need deep consideration.

 

This conversation is well past its due, the reason (I believe) that it has held on so long is due to varying dynamics.

 

 

Capitulation is in order, you may not believe this, but, respect, wisdom on your part will grow.

 

You think that the fight is somewhere out their or here, you are wrong.

 

This is the last I can say on this subject at this time. You grow up, or stay in the same "BOX" that those "others" are slave too.

 

Believe me or don't, remember, it is your life, live it the way you want, just don't expect everyone else to agree. The sward is yours now, it up to you to die by it.

 

This thread is here for you. It lasted this long, for you. TonyD did not lay down the heat, for you. My comments and concern are for you.

 

Think about it for a day or so. I, as well as others will be waiting for a thoughtful, considerate response, because of you.

 

Give it time!

[josh817]

Yah thats the problem, I don't understand like... which way I'm suppose to be swaying here. The agenda, what is expected of me to end this, I suspect is similar to what you're saying "I, as well as others will be waiting for a thoughtful, considerate response, because of you." Am I suppose to write up a surrender terms? I don't think so, I still hold my opinion, like you said, its highly debatable. It seems like the situation is fairly delicate so I'm trying to type accordingly, I'm just not getting. Is it like an apology that you want? That's not going to happen, I'm still not forfeiting my opinion. I forfeited a lot in this thread, you guys swooned me over to "the other side". When I say my opinion, its that I think prices are steep.

[Tony D]

It's not highly debatable, just wrong. You won't concede that, because you have an inability to see it from the other side. That is the basic problem with your attitude.

 

You can lone-wolf this shite all you want. You will have a LONG AND HARD road, and in 20 years you will have probably 1/2 the knowledge of someone like me, who instead of holding to my Texas guns and standing firm, took a stance that perhaps I DON'T know it all about business, L-engines, or the way the world works.

 

I gained the knowledge I did not through some superior mental capacity or inherent ability. I gained it the Japanese way: I shut my mouth, spent a LOT of time quietly observing, and showing reverence to the people who were MAKING THE POWER. When I deigned to ask, due to my humility, they answered.

 

You will gain a LOT more knowledge shutting your mouth, supressing your Texas Ego, and simply LISTENING to what is being said by people instead of going off half cocked and pissed off that you think you have been wronged.

 

The way to gain knowledge is to be around people who have it, and get it from them. If you think you will learn this on the outside....good luck!

 

"Its not because of money, its not because of the lack of skill (well for my case that may be true but for a lot of people here in the states), its because you can't get a hold of it, if you go through certain distributors. "

 

And making excuses like that is part of your problem. Alan isn't holding a flag for me, he's parallell to me making similar comments. As the Japanese say: "The Same, But Different"

 

If you fail to grasp that concept, you will never understand Japanese thought, nor will you understand how they work their system.

 

I just spend $200+ getting my distributors puking drunk here in Hiroshima, and at the end of the night we all understand each other much better. Thought they still distrust me because they think I speak far more Japanese than I really do... But because I ACT more like they do than I 'should' as a Gaijin, it fuels that paranoia that I know more than I'm letting on to knowing. A very uncomfortable position to be in as an asian dealing with a westerner. I'm not supposed to be like that. They are. How did I get this way.

 

I can tell you this much: It wasn't from getting P.O. because my ego couldn't handle the fact that someone picked me up as a wannabe at this point in my endeavors and ignored me. Perhaps listening and observing is more in order than demanding service and attention...

 

I feel this is all falling on deaf ears, like Woldson is alluding to... but I have to try.

[josh817]

-When it comes to price, there isn't a right and wrong, its objective. It would be easier to call me flat out cheap and its just me complaining that the price seems ridiculous to me. That would be my highly debatable opinion.

 

-Lol don't revert to what state I'm residing in. Believe it or not, I hate Texas. The only thing I like would be the lax gun laws but I don't even shoot. If I had a choice I'd move to Massachusetts or Rhode Island.

 

-How exactly do you think I can shut up and listen, to dudes in Japan? I don't go to Japan, I don't speak Japanese. How does this work? I'm not being sarcastic either. I think it would be fantastic to watch how its done.

 

 

Anyway yah, if you want me to sit down - shut up - and listen, I can do that too. Its the only way to end the madness!

Edited May 13, 2010 by josh817

[woldson]

Mass or RI, huh.

 

 

Teehee... snicker snicker.

Edited May 13, 2010 by woldson

[josh817]

Mass or RI, huh.

 

 

Teehee... snicker snicker.

Because of family, Woldson! Have some in RI and NJ, not going to NJ, probably won't do RI, don't mind Mass. though. Actually, I don't mind any of the states, I just like the north east, can't stand the midwest, wouldn't mind the west coast. I don't know anything about moving, but I think its safe to say I'd have to have a reason to go there. Reason as in like, job offer, I would think. Wherever the profession takes me I suppose.

Edited May 13, 2010 by josh817

[Tony D]

"If I had a choice I'd move to Massachusetts or Rhode Island."

 

You are not helping your case.

 

Your last reply of "-How exactly do you think I can shut up and listen, to dudes in Japan? I don't go to Japan, I don't speak Japanese. How does this work? I'm not being sarcastic either. I think it would be fantastic to watch how its done."

 

Shows just how much you have to learn---if it's not right in front of your face, you can't see it, and even then you will need it pointed out to you. And even after that has happened, you will argue ad naseaum about it.

 

Nobody is as blind as those who WON'T see.

 

It's been all said before: "Sigh" & "You don't get it."

 

You win, you're in a dearth, deserted and alone. There you go, you have crowned yourself Lone Wolf. I'm sure in 20 years you will be someone who will expound on all the things 'you' discovered simply because from your viewpoint that is what happened.

 

The arrogance of making a statement like that will never occur to a person such as yourself. YOU discovered it. NOBODY else ever knew it before.

 

It's like guys making those statements about a Flat-Head Ford. All you can do is laugh. Good luck, you will need it!

[josh817]

I don't understand, it was a serious question, why must you hammer me like that? The last sentence was "I think it would be fantastic to watch how its done." I'm eager to learn and yes I know I have a thing for "just print it out in large bold letters" instead of similes, analogies, and allusions.

 

Don't you see that I'm just trying to give in so it can stop? Me making a statement on where I want to live, in a relaxed manner, doesn't show you that I'm losing the will to discuss/argue/whatever you want to call it? I'm not going to make up excuses here but I have one last exam to take this year (in 4 hours), my senses may not be very astute as far as coming up with ideas is concerned right now. You know you word this stuff in a way that is difficult for young guns to understand. You and Woldson have both said it before, it comes with age, so whats your problem Tony?

 

But seriously, I want you to answer the question because I really do want to see what its all like. I'm going to take a wild guess and say you learned by speaking to them, having meetings, going there for yourself, etc. I don't do any of those. Maybe I could look into getting my hands on some Z magazines from over there and that sort of thing I suppose.

 

Tell me what you think. I'll be sleeping in a tent Friday-Sunday at the track. I'll be done with school, meaning more time to ponder on life, universe, and everything else.

[Tony D]

It's already been said, you missed it.

But nobody deleted anything. Start over, read without the attitude, absorb.

 

Learning comes from within, to learn from others you must know yourself.

Edited May 14, 2010 by Tony D

[Daeron]

This is NOT a passive-aggressive message to you Josh, but the key is quoted here, and the REALLY important bit is boldened.

 

I gained the knowledge I did not through some superior mental capacity or inherent ability. I gained it the Japanese way: I shut my mouth, spent a LOT of time quietly observing, and showing reverence to the people who were MAKING THE POWER. When I deigned to ask, due to my humility, they answered.

 

I know this one the friggin hard way. I (believe it or not) am a TALKER. I talk WAY too much. About everything. In grimacing detail. I am the guy who it is hard to hang up the telephone with; the guy who can't leave your house and can't take the hint when you are trying to leave his. (Those last two, just a little bit.)

 

Because of this fact, I get alot of people who simply gloss over anything I ever have to say, and so they never realize what value much of what I say holds to them. (Personally my philosophy is, I says what I says, you takes from it, whadevah you wants.) I am TERRIBLE at first impressions because I run on. The levels at which this has effected me are sublime and I will NOT go into them here, besides to say that even good ideas, insightful questions and helpful comments ALL have their times when they ought to stay trapped in your head.

 

 

 

How does any of this abstract, ethical philosophizing bear on this thread whatsoever?? I think we can agree to the statement that "You must have said something wrong to these distributors to give them an insufficient impression of your intent/ability." If we can agree to that (the italic being the key) then the best way to ever avoid saying something wrong is not to say anything. Obviously you have to communicate, but lets face it.. you are enthusiastic and full of ideas, most of which will likely fail, and you haven't tried much of those ideas yet. You also seem to enjoy talking a bit, and are certainly not the type to post short and sweet style here on hybridZ; your ideas and discussions are further ranging than "What heat range plugs do you guys all run?" I am wagering heavily that somehow or another, the wordiness of your nature somehow got the better of you. (I had a similar vibe regarding myself when Les Cannaday came to buy my uncles BRE Roadster.. I kinda wanted to make sure any impression I made was a positive one, and when he left I got the feeling that he felt I didn't know jack. Honestly I could almost hear him thinking "typical ignorant east coasties..." Not trying to bash Les, just telling a story. If I hadn't brought up a certain point that I was simply curious about his knowledge of, I think things would have ended on a better note as far as his opinion of me.)

 

I don't know if you get where I am coming from or if you think i'm just quacking away, but this is definitely the most bizarre and in certain ways, rule-breaking thread ever NOT toolshedded here.... But to me, it ties into the concept of "The same, but different." I have no clue what subtle cultrual context that may have in Japan, but the depths of that statement have rung true since before I could have phrased it like that. The phrase "Rules are made to be broken" ties into "the same, but different" in my eye; most of the time, a hyper-critical flame-fest of a thread gets shut down in short order.

 

Rarely has there been a thread here more repeatedly critical of a member (speaking sheer number of posts against the guy before locking) that was not shut down much earlier. Rules say this sort of thing is not to be; BUT this thread is the same, but different.

 

We respect and like you Josh, and are trying desperately to point out a flaw of elf-centeredness that we (at least I, and I am pretty sure Tony) see FAR FAR too much of. It isn't easy to accept constructive criticism, and your not having lost your cool has been impressive.

 

I'm posting this; if I go back and try to proof-read I will second guess it sixty million times. I hope it is all coherent.

[Tony D]

"and your not having lost your cool has been impressive."

 

I don't know if I'd go so far as to make that statement...

 

But three people get it, hopefully some day the important one will. I won't hold my breath.

Time to book my return flight. Okamura says next time I'm in Saitiama, he will take me by some car places...

 

Alan knows where.