2eighTZ4me Posted July 19, 2010 Share Posted July 19, 2010 Did a PDX event yesterday at Road Atlanta. 8 laps in, the cockpit just fills with smoke. I look in my rearview and see nothing but oil smoke. Limped it back to the paddock and I hear this rattling noise. Revved the motor slightly and shut it off, you could hear what sounds like a few BB's in the turbo as it's spooling down. GREAT!! At the time of its' demise, oil temp was at 220, coolant at 190, however I did notice after watching the video that my oil pressure was only around 20psi unless I spun it up to 4K RPM, and then it would spike to 40. When the turbo seals went, I lost pressure to the point where it was reading a goose egg on the gauge at idle. I have yet to pull the turbo and disassemble, so I don't know what I trashed - but something is definitely trashed. Pics will follow when I get it off and apart. OK - so, not to make the same mistake twice - I know others have used turbos on road race cars. I'm not so sure I have the right turbo or the proper setup, or whether the Big Guy upstairs just doesn't want me to run a turbo setup on the track. Turbo is a Garrett .60 trim ( I was told - bought it used). MS 1 running fuel only - AFR's were great all day - never got above 12:1 under boost. First - is it wise to use a turbo blanket for a high stress application? Is keeping all that heat in the turbo for extended periods of time a good thing? I have one currently. Second, I have a -10AN return line from the turbo to the pan. It was a tight fit, so the steel braid hosing has a slight kink in it, but not enough to collapse the hose and shut off flow. I have an EBay feeder line off a Y block with the proper restrictive orifice going to the turbo. It should have been getting oil - but not inundated with it.....it's only a -3AN feed line with a -10AN on the drain side. I can't imagine it would be an oil volume issue (but what do I know!) I was running about 18psi of boost, but I was babying the car and maybe hit a couple spikes of 18-20, but usually kept it half throttle and didn't go much past 10-15psi. I did notice on a couple laps that the car would lose power in the blink of an eye and then come back on. You could see the boost gauge go from 15 to 0-5 and then back to 15 almost instantaneously. Wondering if it's that cheap a$$ blow off valve I have? Sorry to ramble - basically looking for any hints from anyone that runs boost in a road race situation. Water cooled turbo? Less boost? Go back to N/A? Seems like every time I go to the track, I trash something, yet I double and triple check everything prior to going to the track (and everything runs/checks out fine on the street) but the past 3 times, I've come home on the trailer........ (And to add insult to injury, had one of the tires blowout on the trailer on the way home) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted July 19, 2010 Share Posted July 19, 2010 What oil pan? What oil pump? What oil cooler? What oil filter? Properly route all your oil lines so there are no kinks anywhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2eighTZ4me Posted July 19, 2010 Author Share Posted July 19, 2010 (edited) Arizona Z-Car pan Stock pump Oberg double sandwich external oil filter B&M 8x10 oil cooler -10AN lines plumbing the whole system, and also have the Mocal oil thermostat that you recommended. Oil temp never got above 220 - stayed pretty much constant at that temp once I got it up to temp. I watched the in-car video 3x last night and studied the gauges. The oil pressure was the only thing that concerned me. Running Rotella straight 30w oil. I'm ordering one of Walrich's external oil pressure adjusters today. There are no kinks in the lines anywhere. Everything routed cleanly. The only thing that has a slight kink is the return from the turbo to the pan. Edited July 19, 2010 by 2eighTZ4me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roger280zx Posted July 20, 2010 Share Posted July 20, 2010 Ouch! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgkurz Posted July 20, 2010 Share Posted July 20, 2010 (edited) FWIW, I have a similar setup as you but do not run an oil cooler. I have flogged my car at an 85deg track day for 30min at 26psi peak and the oil temp never went above 220degF. This is with Mobile1 15w50. On the street I run Mobile1 10w30. I mostly attribute the good oil temps to an excellent radiator and cooling system. I actually bought everything to put an oil cooler on my engine but chose not to install it because I never see dangerous temps. Just a thought but are you sure you need an oil cooler? The weight and complexity was not worth the trouble for me. -John Edited July 20, 2010 by jgkurz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted July 20, 2010 Share Posted July 20, 2010 Arizona Z-Car pan Stock pump Oberg double sandwich external oil filter B&M 8x10 oil cooler -10AN lines plumbing the whole system, and also have the Mocal oil thermostat that you recommended. Oil temp never got above 220 - stayed pretty much constant at that temp once I got it up to temp. I watched the in-car video 3x last night and studied the gauges. The oil pressure was the only thing that concerned me. Running Rotella straight 30w oil. I'm ordering one of Walrich's external oil pressure adjusters today. There are no kinks in the lines anywhere. Everything routed cleanly. The only thing that has a slight kink is the return from the turbo to the pan. It sounds like you had an oil starvation issue more then anything else. Did you see any oil pressure drop in right hand turns? I would also check the oil pump, oil pickup (for pinholes, leaks), and the pressure springs. I've seen oil pickup tubes with small rust pinholes near the flange which causes the pump to suck air. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted July 21, 2010 Share Posted July 21, 2010 Two Words of Advice: Canton Accusump Swore I'd never Autocross my Turbo Shark Car without this! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayolives Posted July 21, 2010 Share Posted July 21, 2010 First - is it wise to use a turbo blanket for a high stress application? I spoke with a Garrett tech. person about using a wrap or blanket and was told that the it was ok and would not hurt the turbo in any way. I wrapped my L6 turbo, in my track car, to prorect it from the exhaust heat. I would GUESS that it lowers the oil temp. I stress "GUESS" because I didn't actually check the before and after temps. Second, Do I have an oil volume issue. If your line are kinked, replace it. The sizes you are running are good. Third, lose of power under boost A number of things can cause a stumble, including, but not limited to, you ignition system, bov, fuel flow, etc. Your bov could be a good place to start looking for what causes it. Turbos on track cars can be "quirky" but after you get the bugs worked out, they can really help to make power. Discovering how and where to properly apply throttle with your right foot, and to be able to keep the turbo spooling is the key to running a turbo track car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2eighTZ4me Posted August 4, 2010 Author Share Posted August 4, 2010 Update - Turbo shaft is broken clean in two. Apparently, the compressor housing is gone too. A race got knocked about. The guy that examined the turbo ( a turbo "expert") said that a "turbulent air mass" caused enough pressure differential between the turbine and compressor sides that the force snapped the shaft in two. No bluing - no oil starvation. Seals still in great shape - however, now I have a worthless paper weight. I have to ask you turbo experts - what in the hell could cause enough pressure differential to break the shaft? Is this the compressor surge that folks are talking about? I read the sticky but still can't get my arms totally around the concept. I have a cheap BOV ( and a brand new Tial MVS wastegate with a .5 bar spring) and I suspect that it (BOV) may be releasing boost under accel. How else could my boost gauge be going from 15psi to 5psi and then immediately back to 15psi in the blink of an eye? Throttle input was constant. Wastegate was set to 18psi and did not even come into the picture at that point. It did the 15 > 5 > 15psi thing at least 10x on the way around the track. It's not a fuel issue. I can rule that out with empirical evidence from my wideband, and the fact that I just rectified the fuel issue prior to this track event and now have a cockpit gauge. Running MS I for fuel only and a MAPDaddy II MAP sensor. I figure either the BOV is releasing boost when it's not supposed to, or the boost controller (GM style - bought from DIY AutoTune about 2 months ago) is acting funky. Something is causing boost dropouts. So - now I'm shopping for a new T04E unit. Just f***** great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zmanco Posted August 4, 2010 Share Posted August 4, 2010 (edited) Is this the boost control valve you're using? What's controlling it? I didn't think MSnS could manage BC. That might be the source of the boost fluctuations you saw, at least i wouldn't rule it out without checking further. I thought I saw a T04E for sale either here or on ebay last week - might be worth checking out, although buying another used turbo might not be such a good idea if you don't know the seller. I feel your pain and frustration - hopefully with a little time it will lose its edge. Edited August 4, 2010 by Zmanco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2eighTZ4me Posted August 4, 2010 Author Share Posted August 4, 2010 Yes Daniel - that's the exact boost controller. I had my MS modified by Matt at DIY to handle boost control. Works great from what I can tell. I just didn't dial it back enough before the track day to get the wastegate to come on. Yeah - I saw the turbo - it needs a rebuild. I will not by any turbo that "needs a rebuild" Did that once (actually the guy said it had no shaft play and was great) opened it up and the compressor wheel had dug a groove in the compressor housing from too much "shaft play". There were several fins shaved down on the compressor wheel as well from the grinding. Never again... I need a cheap T04E turbo at this point - one that I can bolt on and run. Anybody have any EBay suggestions? I keep plugging in T04E turbo and EBay keeps shooting back T3/T04E turbos. I don't have that funky bolt pattern that the hybrids have - mine is a straight 3" dump with a V-band clamp. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zmanco Posted August 4, 2010 Share Posted August 4, 2010 You might try searching for just TO4 turbo. I found the one I mentioned here in the for sale forum, but it needs a rebuild .... Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.