[Ineptitude01]

Okay, HybridZ. Time for a crazy idea. I've been thinking about the Laminova.

http://www.hi-flow.com/HPIC2.HTM

(Searching for 'Laminova' got me one result, and it wasn't even relevant to my idea. )

Talking to my buddy Sam about intercooling stuff, he and I agreed that air-water intercoolers were pretty neat. But then he showed me the Laminova design.

Sam's lucky, in this case, because he's got a WRX swapped Impreza, and Subaru boxer manifolds can just use these as a passthrough on top of the engine, where the stock throttle body sits, and instead of the TMIC.

But what about the L6? You can't use these inline, and making some kind of box to hold them would defeat the purpose of air water.

So I figured... What if you just chucked out the stock throttlebody and intake manifold, and used ITBs? As soon as you're using ITBs, you've basically decided that intake runners just aren't for you, anyways, and now you've got all that space freed up.

Since there's now no throttle body there, there's no need for a J-pipe of any kind. Since there's no FMIC, you don't need to run any other weird piping. So why not just dump the turbo straight up into a custom manifold box containing four Laminovas?

I drew a quick sketch of what I'm proposing. I saw another thread where someone was using ITBs with a turbo, but it seems to me that most people just let well enough alone when it comes to the throttlebody (or swap out for a bigger unit)



So I guess what I'm wondering is... am I totally nuts, or is there some merit to this idea?

I wish I could find evidence of this being done on an inline, non crossflow engine, but so far everything I've seen has been for V engines or boxers.

http://www.nsxprime....ad.php?t=125681

http://forums.bimmer...=1259403&page=5

What do you guys think? Doable on an L6?

[hughdogz]

Coolant can get pretty warm (~160 => 200 degrees F) so to use that Laminova, wouldn't that warm ambient air when not in boost?

Also, you need a good amount of surface area for heat transfer. I don't think four tubes are going to do it. Also, aluminum has twice the heat transfer coefficent of say brass.

Ideally, an intercooler can cool the intake charge down to ambient air temperature, but with a Laminova, you can only cool it down to engine coolant temperature.

I don't think it would be efficent enough, perhaps even deficient. Maybe I'm wrong, it wouldn't be the first time

[Edit: Okay, now that I read those links, it may be do-able. But you're still going to mount an aftercooler somewhere, and not use engine coolant, right?]

[WizardBlack]

Engine coolant temp is deficient to intake temp, even to a top-mounted subaru turbo motor.

[Ineptitude01]

Oops, I knew I forgot to mention something. Yes, this would be going to its own, *separate* radiator core, just like any air-water intercooler/aftercooler.

Using engine coolant would probably have the exact opposite effect from what you want.

Other enterprising solutions might take advantage of the transmission cooler in those automatic radiators we all have lying around...?

[hughdogz]

Right on. Hey, I had an idea of using an air conditioning evaporator integrated with an air-air intercooler. Neat idea, and someone mentioned some kind of Typhoon type-vehicle had one but they only produced a few of them.

Also, it would be nice to do a CFD of the design beforehand, since it looks as though the Laminova manifold in that link would create a significant pressure drop, more than say 1 psi for a good air-air IC.

By the way, what sketch program did you use to make the diagram? It's pretty neat.

[Ineptitude01]

The paint program is Adobe Flash, believe it or not. It looks so neat 'cause Flash vectorizes paint strokes.

Anyhow, I was thinking, as long as you're not going to use rubber hoses, you could go for the gold and use this stuff, or something similar.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Fluorinert

I know firsthand that it's amazing for electronics, but a CPU probably doesn't get as hot as a turbo's charge.

I bet that low boiling point would be a problem, but some similar flourocarbon based coolant might work well here?

I'm thinking about jumping into a 3D program later tonight and doing some more serious mockups. (I'll make sure and include the radiator core to avoid further confusion )

[trippintl0]

Why not use Freon? You've already got an A/C compressor from the factory. It's already got a condenser. Build the intake manifold around a small evaporator coil. Add a big accumulator so you don't slug the compressor when the turbo's not doing anything. Will it work? Who knows!

Although, I KNOW TonyD has mentioned using refrigeration for some sort of engine cooling or intercooling...

[mulcibre]

the laminova cores actually have a fairly ridiculous internal surface area, using refrigerant would really work quite well.

Ineptitude and I were discussing the potentially ridiculous proposition of a refrigerated manifold.

Think on this though, your factory AC system is just cooling down ambient temp air, and not at nearly the rate a turbo moves it either.

I suspect that a really large condenser would be necessary for extended sessions, and a more robust pump.

I like the idea about the accumulator, I'm not overly knowledgeable about phase change cooling systems though.

The original plan was to fit a large exchanger in the front bumper area. The Z's especially have lots of space up there for some serious cooling units. Just insulate the line running to the IC cores, and bam, instant close-to-ambient temps. The only complicated part of setting this up would be getting the laminova core manifold fabbed in the first place.

The subaru's front end is tighter than well... use your imagination. It's gonna take some creative trimming to fit a large exchanger up there.

[Ineptitude01]

Haha, yo, Sam.

Here to make fun of people without DOHC AVCS heads?

Anyways, guys, refrigerant would be secondary to the design actually working. Thankfully, I nuked my windows partition, so I won't be up until 3AM rendering the concept.

I'll fix it tomorrow, but for the time being, I'd love more feedback, maybe somebody's used these on a supercharged V8, or knows someone who has?

I'd even like to hear about people's air-water intercooler experiences, what size core got what results, that kind of thing.

And if it gets to that point, knowing someone with a CNC machine in the Bay Area... well, if wishes were horses, right?

[HowlerMonkey]

A while back, I wanted to supercool the air and enclosed an a/c evaporator....actually many since more than a few had the vanes vibrating an insane amount and one actually had the vanes fold over from the velocity of the air coming in from the turbo.

They just aren't made for crazy velocity and you can guarantee that some types would lose vanes or other parts.

I guess one could swap velocity for volume further upstream of it and get around possible evaporator core damage but I'm not sure if that would be enough and you would have to add more volume to the "column" or pressurized air causing longer lag times.

I used a double pole brakelight switch (cruise control cars have them) and energized the compressor clutch through the brakes to use the A/C system to cool the core.

I eventually used a maxima or stanza a/c clutch sensor/controller from the climate control system that would keep the clutch from being energized at crazy rpms.

It worked OK but is pretty much only good for a road racing track car where the brakes are used often since the compressor's loading while engaged will negate any HP rewards if it runs during acceleration.

Sadly, the extra weight and the fact that most road racing classes don't allow turbochargers means it was more just playing around but......if you only plan to blast the road course for fun in non-sanctioned "arrive and drive" events....it might be fun.

The mustang guys are always selling air/water intercooler systems when they swap out the supercharger on thier late model cobra for a turbo system but it might require a bit of work to fit it to a different application.

Air/water intercooling works pretty well on the car I am doing some custom parts for......we'll find out october 11th when it competes in the standing mile competition at the "dade collier training and transition airfield" or "everglades jetport" which is a huge airport in the everglades that was intended for the concorde (which later landed an miami anyway).

If anybody is interested in seeing an event like this, now might be the time because the super high speeds and lack of sanctioning body tell me someone will crack up pretty badly eventually and these events will disappear shortly.

The car is in the center video at the bottom of the page.

http://www.milemarker-1.com/

[mulcibre]

the laminova cores are extruded aluminum, and are highly resistant to pulsations of the intake tract. There is a kit available for the NSX that fits four of those babies right under the blower, and they have had no issues.

[HowlerMonkey]

Also a good screen to keep foreign objects out of the engine.

The one on the car I'm working on is good for around 2000hp.

[johnc]

A few questions:

1. How much is this setup with the refrigeration unit going to weigh?
2. How much power will the refrigeration unit require?
3. Will the power increase from a cooler intake charge make up for the additional weight and power drain?
4. Will that additional complexity of the system affect reliability (leaks, maintenance, etc.)?
5. What happens if the refrigerant leaks into the intake manifold at, let's say, 6,500 rpm with 20 psi of boost?

[Ineptitude01]

Holy moly, that refrigerant system sounds complicated. I've always shied away from things that steal power to make power (low comp pistons being the obvious exception ).

My original interest for the laminova was the idea that you could potentially get it working on kind of a passive setup. Little radiator core, coolant lines, electric pump, etc. Low impact, hopefully high efficiency?

Using something that absorbs heat more readily than water or antifreeze would help a bunch too. I guess that's the original idea of the refrigerant loop, because honestly, what better than refrigerant to cool something down?

I'd CAD up a layout and fitment, but all my free 3D time is currently going to a different Datsun oriented project... Something I think you guys are gonna like... Provided, that is, that you like 240Zs, or even Datsuns in general.

[HowlerMonkey]

I'll see what the intake air temps are on the data acquisition system for this air/water system we have on the twin turbo ford GT when we run the "florida mile" next weekend.

From our dyno runs, it was amazingly effective at lowering intake air temps dramatically.

[mulcibre]

check out frozenboost.com too for ideas

I'm switching to standalone EM and rigging an AWIC setup on my WRX motor, gonna try for 1.1 bar on pump gas and PnP stock turbo. Will let you know how the AWIC does against a stock flamethrower

The big deal with AWIC setup is that the water can soak up heat during a boost pull, then release the heat while you enter the next corner. As may have been mentioned, a peculiar trait of the setup is that the intercooler itself will release heat from the system when you're not under boost.

I think the real question is, is the laminova style intercooler's efficiency enough better than traditional AWIC designs to make it worth the extra cost and complexity?

As for refrigerant (AC) based systems, I think that is a big time case of diminishing returns. The laminova setup is already reducing temps almost back to ambient, the work required to get more energy out of that pressurized air is gonna be hard to get back with more spark advance and more boost.

[dan5138]

I think some sort of fluid to air setup would be the best bet, and would have a small impact on weight. Since the the coolant for this system would be running trough part of the intake mani anyway, why not use fuel?

As far as I know your gas should be about the same temp, or sligtly lower than the outside ambient air temperature. after passing through the manifold the fuel would go to the injectors, warm fuel atomizes better than cold fuel so this would have some added benefits. You might have to get a bit better fuel pump, but you won't have the added wieght of water, resivoir tank, pump and all the extras that go along with it,

[mulcibre]

dan5138 said:

I think some sort of fluid to air setup would be the best bet, and would have a small impact on weight. Since the the coolant for this system would be running trough part of the intake mani anyway, why not use fuel?

As far as I know your gas should be about the same temp, or sligtly lower than the outside ambient air temperature. after passing through the manifold the fuel would go to the injectors, warm fuel atomizes better than cold fuel so this would have some added benefits. You might have to get a bit better fuel pump, but you won't have the added wieght of water, resivoir tank, pump and all the extras that go along with it,

I found this:

http://adsabs.harvar...abe..symp..193W

excerpt,
"Fuel temperatures are varied from -20 C to +50 C. Over this range of temperature, the overall effect of an increase in fuel temperature is to reduce the mean drop size and broaden the distribution of drop sizes in the spray. Generally, it is found that the influence of fuel temperature on mean drop size is far more pronounced for diesel oil than for gasoline."

OK, so thats NASA

[frank280zx]

Intigiung idea..!!
But apart from the cost and added weight factor, if it would be the way to go wouldnt you see it on rally and track cars more ?
I think the most effective way to (temporary) cool down the airtemp would be a cryo bar!

[dan5138]

mulcibre said:

I found this:

http://adsabs.harvar...abe..symp..193W

excerpt,
"Fuel temperatures are varied from -20 C to +50 C. Over this range of temperature, the overall effect of an increase in fuel temperature is to reduce the mean drop size and broaden the distribution of drop sizes in the spray. Generally, it is found that the influence of fuel temperature on mean drop size is far more pronounced for diesel oil than for gasoline."

OK, so thats NASA

In plain english: raising your fuel temperature achieves slightly better atomization with gasoline. However manifold pressure has a much greater effect. Under boost it is more difficult for the fuel to atomize than it is in an NA engine.

On another note, I would make the manifold itself out of some sort of composite material so it doesn't heat soak. However the laminar tubes / fins would remain aluminum.

The whole goal here is to completely replace a FMIC, while having the same amount of effect on the intake charge. I think it is totally feasible, and with a little R&D could be more compact and possibly lighter than a traditional FMIC setup.