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Looking for some VQ insight

vq30de vq30det 240z

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#1 luseboy

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Posted 20 July 2016 - 03:08 PM

So I started looking into engine swaps for my '73 240z.  I  have been leaning towards getting a front wheel drive vq30de and putting a 350z 6 speed behind it (using a 350z oil pan, clutch, flywheel, etc.). I know this won't make much power compared to a 350z vq35de but if I put a turbo on it down the road I'm sure it'll be more than enough power for me and it's a really cheap motor to pickup.  I've been thinking I want to try to get megasquirt to work as I like the flexibility and ability to change virtually anything. It seems, though, that there aren't too many people running megasquirt with a vq of any type, is there any reason for this in particular?  I know the vq35de is a very complicated motor electronically, but apparently the vq30de is much simpler.  I suppose it would be a whole lot easier to get it running with stock electronics, so I may go this route but does anyone know if the ecu needs to be messed with before you can get it to run without all of the associated security parts like with a vq35 swap? Sorry if this is all over the place, I'm just trying to get some rough ideas as I have only been able to do some reading around online.  I know a few people on here have done this swap and I have searched but I was hoping for a little clarification. 

 

Now my other questions revolve around the drivetrain aspect of the car.  I suppose I should ask this in the drivetrain section but I wanted to get an idea of what people are running as far as rear ends are concerned with their vq swaps.  I already have pretty upgraded stock suspension and have silvermine motors stage 4 rear brakes, so I'd like to retain as much of this as possible.  I like the idea of putting an R180 out of an Sti in as I can retain my brakes, control arms, coilovers, wheel stub axles, etc.  However, if I am running a vq30det or a vq35de, with possibly up to 300 ft/lbs of torque, am I likely to be breaking diffs or associated parts with the Sti R180, or has this been done?  I'd like something reasonably solid, even though I'm not gonna have LS1 torque and I won't be drag racing or drifting.  However, from time to time my left foot may slip off my clutch pedal while my right foot may accidentally be pushing down on the accelerator pedal, and I'd rather not blow up my diff when this accidentally happens... My plan currently is to get the Sti diff but use CV's, as at least one member on here has done.  I already have 280zxt outer axle flanges so this wouldn't be too hard to do, but I'm just not sure if this will be solid enough for this engine.  I'm just not sure if I should be planning to go for an R230 or Ford 8.8 or something. 

Hopefully this isn't too off in left field, I know it's much easier when there's more specific questions but if anyone has some general guidance for me on this that'd be awesome.

Thanks!



#2 dexter72

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Posted 20 July 2016 - 06:45 PM

You can use an R-200, it is a strong diff. Just hard to find the R200 3.70 Clutch pack rear diff..  Not sure if the R180 out of the Sti is positraction or not..  Check around for the Jdm turbo VQ. already is a rear drive engine.. For intake purposes...



#3 luseboy

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Posted 21 July 2016 - 12:58 AM

You can use an R-200, it is a strong diff. Just hard to find the R200 3.70 Clutch pack rear diff..  Not sure if the R180 out of the Sti is positraction or not..  Check around for the Jdm turbo VQ. already is a rear drive engine.. For intake purposes...

 

I like the idea of the R200 but the longnose with an lsd is very expensive usually and the shortnose is a very involved swap in which I may as well go for an R230 (unless I'm missing something), which makes it expensive and difficult to install. Not that I'm not up to the challenge, but if there's an option that is almost bolt in that would handle the power I think it would end up much more solid.  I'm not really looking to spend $4k on my rear diff, and if I fab up my own diff mount and such it'll still end up expensive and probably not as well made as it should be. The Sti diff is limited slip and is either viscuous or clutch type depending on year, it's the strongest R180 ever made as far as I know, I just don't know if that's gonna be enough for me.  I know no one could say for sure if that's the case but I'm curious about an educated guess from those with experience.  

 

As far as the JDM VQ30det goes, I was briefly looking at them and they seem to sell for about what a complete vq35de out of a 350z or g35 sells for, which makes more power and what not.  The VQ30de out of a maxima sells for like $350-$400, or what an L28 sold for a few years ago.  I would still need a full oil pan, and ya I would need to figure out the intake.  I can fab my own motor mounts (best friend is a certified TIG welder), so that makes this a pretty cheap swap for me, relatively speaking.  Plus down the road I could make new mounts and put in a vq35de and already have the transmission and all that in place.  



#4 BluDestiny

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Posted 21 July 2016 - 11:39 AM

The STI diff can handle about 300 ft/lbs of torque, although that's definitely the upper range according to what John C used to say. It's also been proven behind rebello L series all across the US, although how much time they spend racing or dropping the clutch who knows.  At that point the axles and stubs would be the weak link. 

 

The easiest direct bolt in solution is the R200 longnose LSD. 


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#5 luseboy

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Posted 21 July 2016 - 12:27 PM

The STI diff can handle about 300 ft/lbs of torque, although that's definitely the upper range according to what John C used to say. It's also been proven behind rebello L series all across the US, although how much time they spend racing or dropping the clutch who knows.  At that point the axles and stubs would be the weak link. 

 

The easiest direct bolt in solution is the R200 longnose LSD. 

 

It sounds like it can probably handle it but I would prefer something stronger.  I'm now looking into putting an lsd pumpkin for a shortnose r200 into a longnose r200 case, looks like it is doable.  



#6 seattlejester

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Posted 22 July 2016 - 10:07 AM

With what limited exchange I had with JohnC when I was pondering if the R180 STI was good enough for higher levels of power, he said with frequent changes it could be fine. His concern was that it would probably overheat and would need frequent changes to keep it happy. 

 

An R200 will handle the abuse, but then that is the diff that will handle the abuse not the axles and such. 

 

I put a short nose pumpkin into a long nose housing, there are a few people here who have and there is an excellent write up on the xenon site as it used to be done with non turbo Z31 cars quite often it seems. The problem is unless you find a clutch type you are going to need VLSD input axles which has proven to be quite difficult. If you do find a clutch type finding replacement clutch packs may prove difficult. Even if you find a diff with the correct inputs then you are sitting on the axle selection being limited. You can either hunt for a used set to rebuild, build a frankenstein axle, go full custom, or buy one of the aftermarket offerings from DSS or CFR. I found 280zx turbo adapters for cheap and went for those, not real CV's but they should handle some power and some angle. I would almost say that for the effort it might just be better to go with a TTT short nose mount kit or something of that nature, you will need a new drive shaft anyways so that takes a big part of the cost out of converting, and you can run 240sx or 300zx or gt-r axles shortened and resplined by TTT.



#7 Nismospek

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Posted 22 July 2016 - 04:27 PM

Most guys that go VQ35 do the wiring from Z fever which comes with an Osirus UPrev license. No need for megasquirt.

#8 luseboy

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Posted 22 July 2016 - 05:52 PM

With what limited exchange I had with JohnC when I was pondering if the R180 STI was good enough for higher levels of power, he said with frequent changes it could be fine. His concern was that it would probably overheat and would need frequent changes to keep it happy. 

 

An R200 will handle the abuse, but then that is the diff that will handle the abuse not the axles and such. 

 

I put a short nose pumpkin into a long nose housing, there are a few people here who have and there is an excellent write up on the xenon site as it used to be done with non turbo Z31 cars quite often it seems. The problem is unless you find a clutch type you are going to need VLSD input axles which has proven to be quite difficult. If you do find a clutch type finding replacement clutch packs may prove difficult. Even if you find a diff with the correct inputs then you are sitting on the axle selection being limited. You can either hunt for a used set to rebuild, build a frankenstein axle, go full custom, or buy one of the aftermarket offerings from DSS or CFR. I found 280zx turbo adapters for cheap and went for those, not real CV's but they should handle some power and some angle. I would almost say that for the effort it might just be better to go with a TTT short nose mount kit or something of that nature, you will need a new drive shaft anyways so that takes a big part of the cost out of converting, and you can run 240sx or 300zx or gt-r axles shortened and resplined by TTT.

 

 

Interesting, I wonder if I should just go the STI route but make a larger capacity finned cover work. I mean I won't be racing or drifting and after doing a little more research, I'd be surprised if I do make 300 ft/lbs, probably more like 250 or 275.  It would certainly be much easier, and I'd run it with the sti CV's with a shorter shaft like at least one member on here has done.  But I do like the idea of having piece of mind with the R200. 

 

So I take it you used a vlsd pumpkin in your case? Are the 280zx adapters for the diff side or the companion flange side? I already have 280zx turbo companion flanges so if I can just use the axles out of a 280zx turbo that would be nice since I already have one piece of the puzzle.  Although I believe these companion flanges are 25 spline whereas I have 280z 27 spline stub axles that have been re drilled (by modern motorsports when they were still around) to 5 lug, so I'd still have to get that figured out. 

 

I'm assuming if I can find a clsd it'd be really expensive?  I also found a post on here about making a frankenstein axle out of a pathfinder front axle with some different ends on one side, can't quite remember the specifics. I'm not at all opposed to running a frankenstein axle as long as it doesn't cost a ton of money.  Additionally, according to another post, the Kaaz 1.5- or 2- way pumpkin for converting an s13 to lsd from open will work with 280z r200 diff stub axles and halfshafts.  I wouldn't mind running halfshafts for the time being and then upgrading to CV's later on down the road.  



#9 luseboy

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Posted 22 July 2016 - 06:01 PM

Most guys that go VQ35 do the wiring from Z fever which comes with an Osirus UPrev license. No need for megasquirt.

 

Interesting, I went to Z fever's website (maybe a different Z fever?) where they have a page about swapping the VQ35de into a 240sx and they say they use a standalone system from AEM, and chuck the stock ecu.  I just don't know if the VQ30de is different since it came in the '95-'99 maxima.  I guess I was hoping someone would know about this. 



#10 seattlejester

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Posted 22 July 2016 - 07:41 PM

JohnC suggested I go for it since I already had it. I decided the price for what it was going to cost ($500 for adapters then $900 for CV axles) I could probably do better without worrying about the diff being the weakest link. I also paid $250 or so for a really lightly used well documented CLSD STI diff which I flipped for $450 or something like that, which made my R200 swap pretty cheap, and it seemed a bit backward to step down to an R180 when I was already running an R200.

 

A longnose R200 CLSD is pretty expensive. They used to go for about 300, now I don't think you can find any under 600. VLSD are fairly rare in the long nose so those kind of depend on if the axles come with them. Shortnose R200 VLSD are really cheap in comparison drifters go through lots of them and pull lots of them as spares so they are usually pretty easy to get a hold of. CLSD I'm not sure which cars that came in, but those are also fairly readily available.

 

Yup I pulled a VLSD from a J30 in the junkyard for $100 or so, then got a Z31 turbo housing from a parts recycler for $115 I think to swap in. To do this swap you either need a diff housing from a Z31 (they are the only ones that came with a 12mm ring gear, or you have to buy sleeves to shrink the holes in the center section down to 10mm if you are using the housing from a z or 280zx car.

 

i ran 280zx turbo companion flanges with the driver side being a 280zx turbo axle with some grinding to fit the snap ring. The passenger side needed a frankenstein axle which I adapted to the VLSD input from the diff I took it from, and then back to the turbo 280zx. Not a bolt in affair. Going to have to get real dirty and even my little axle required welding and even then I'm not sure if it is happy. There is a thread on here where they go over making a frankenstein axle using an AMC axle and tripod gears. Even then I'm not sure how much power a tripod setup will be happy putting down vs an actual cv joint.



#11 luseboy

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Posted 25 July 2016 - 06:23 PM

JohnC suggested I go for it since I already had it. I decided the price for what it was going to cost ($500 for adapters then $900 for CV axles) I could probably do better without worrying about the diff being the weakest link. I also paid $250 or so for a really lightly used well documented CLSD STI diff which I flipped for $450 or something like that, which made my R200 swap pretty cheap, and it seemed a bit backward to step down to an R180 when I was already running an R200.

 

A longnose R200 CLSD is pretty expensive. They used to go for about 300, now I don't think you can find any under 600. VLSD are fairly rare in the long nose so those kind of depend on if the axles come with them. Shortnose R200 VLSD are really cheap in comparison drifters go through lots of them and pull lots of them as spares so they are usually pretty easy to get a hold of. CLSD I'm not sure which cars that came in, but those are also fairly readily available.

 

Yup I pulled a VLSD from a J30 in the junkyard for $100 or so, then got a Z31 turbo housing from a parts recycler for $115 I think to swap in. To do this swap you either need a diff housing from a Z31 (they are the only ones that came with a 12mm ring gear, or you have to buy sleeves to shrink the holes in the center section down to 10mm if you are using the housing from a z or 280zx car.

 

i ran 280zx turbo companion flanges with the driver side being a 280zx turbo axle with some grinding to fit the snap ring. The passenger side needed a frankenstein axle which I adapted to the VLSD input from the diff I took it from, and then back to the turbo 280zx. Not a bolt in affair. Going to have to get real dirty and even my little axle required welding and even then I'm not sure if it is happy. There is a thread on here where they go over making a frankenstein axle using an AMC axle and tripod gears. Even then I'm not sure how much power a tripod setup will be happy putting down vs an actual cv joint.

 

Interesting, sounds like there's a reason I'm not finding an easy solution for my rear end set up: there's a million options and considerations.  I guess what's important for me is that I have something that will hold up, has a limited slip function of some sort (aggressive would be nice but anything is better than open), and something that isn't unobtainably expensive or lands me with a set up that is really expensive or nearly impossible to fix should something go wrong.  I really appreciate your insight, I think I'm gonna need to give this whole thing a lot more thought and try and figure out what I want to do.  



#12 duragg

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Posted 27 July 2016 - 11:58 AM

Mine was a Z-Fever type wiring setup with Osiris Uprev pre-installed.  Just connect power and ground.

It starts, idles, accelerates and runs flawlessly and with Osiris you can tweak anything you need.

 

Many aftermarket ECU setups just never seem to get all the run&drive stuff dialed in like a factory ECU does.

 

Hard to beat.  Unless you want to spend a mega-lifetime researching mega-forums.

TJ


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1973 S30 (Gutted & caged NASA ST3) 2252lbs (dry & vacant) / VQ35HR/ 4.375 CLSD R200 / GC-Koni doubles / 275 R7s / Safety is a priority.


#13 luseboy

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Posted 27 July 2016 - 01:19 PM

Mine was a Z-Fever type wiring setup with Osiris Uprev pre-installed.  Just connect power and ground.

It starts, idles, accelerates and runs flawlessly and with Osiris you can tweak anything you need.

 

Many aftermarket ECU setups just never seem to get all the run&drive stuff dialed in like a factory ECU does.

 

Hard to beat.  Unless you want to spend a mega-lifetime researching mega-forums.

TJ

 

That sounds too easy, and almost certainly my best bet.  Did you send your ecu off or did you buy the engine that way already? I definitely don't want to spend days on end tuning and trying to get it running right. 



#14 duragg

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Posted 30 July 2016 - 09:15 PM

I contracted with Jim at Turbo Toys.
They sent me a video of the Vq35hr with modified harness and OSIRIS starting, and revving on a pallet with everything I needed (gas pedal, Trans, everything).

The Trans was damaged in shipping and he sent another one right away.

No brainer.

Edited by duragg, 30 July 2016 - 09:16 PM.

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1973 S30 (Gutted & caged NASA ST3) 2252lbs (dry & vacant) / VQ35HR/ 4.375 CLSD R200 / GC-Koni doubles / 275 R7s / Safety is a priority.


#15 Leon

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Posted 31 July 2016 - 08:35 AM

Austin, Works Motorsports does UpRev/Osiris tuning, FYI. You can get a modified harness and flashed ECU as TJ mentions and then bring it to Works for a final tune once the car is ready.



#16 luseboy

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Posted 31 July 2016 - 09:08 AM

I contracted with Jim at Turbo Toys.
They sent me a video of the Vq35hr with modified harness and OSIRIS starting, and revving on a pallet with everything I needed (gas pedal, Trans, everything).

The Trans was damaged in shipping and he sent another one right away.

No brainer.

Definitely sounds like a great way to do it! What are you running for a diff/axles? I'm sure that you're running more power than I ever would be able to safely do with the vq30, even with a turbo on it. 

 

Austin, Works Motorsports does UpRev/Osiris tuning, FYI. You can get a modified harness and flashed ECU as TJ mentions and then bring it to Works for a final tune once the car is ready.

Ah that could be very useful, I'm sure trying to get it tuned right on my own would be quite a learning curve.  







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