Jump to content
HybridZ
seattlejester

seattlejester's 2jz swap info

Recommended Posts

So I've been thinking about this for a while with some of the recent excellent threads on doing this on a budget and my untimely demise of my 7mgte. I figured I would post my thoughts and findings so it may help with others.

 

Why swap the 2jz: similar to the reasoning behind why I went with the 7mgte, it has the intake on the driver side and exhaust on the passenger (cross flow), twin cam, 4 valves per cylinder, lots of aftermarket support, available in the US, smooth inline 6, higher displacement etc etc etc. I've had this argument with some, but bottom line is it is easier to do the exhaust on the toyota motors, it is easier to get parts (walk into the auto parts store, or get next day from toyota dealer to toyota dealer).

 

Why is the 2jz so reliable: The 2jz was, as I have been told, part of the Z series of engines, starting with the 1uz-fe. This was when toyota stepped up in-house machining and thus tolerances and such were much better controlled. Mistakes from the earlier 7m were rectified and an extensive racing program helped shine some insight into problem areas. 

 

Why is the 2jz so popular: The reason for its popularity was in part due to the old hot rod process. Start tearing the car down on Friday and by Sunday morning you could hit the drag strip with lots of added power. Given the reliable bottom end, bolting on a bigger turbo with injectors along with supporting mods meant you could up the power with minimal changes. Given the reliability of these motors that means that cores are not usually sought out as readily and given the high usage of this motor in applications other then the venerable supra (aristo, sc300, is300, gs300, etc etc) means that blocks are plentiful and cheap. While the Supra got the movie boost from the Fast and the Furious movies, a lot of other pedestrian cars escaped without the high markup that the Supras face while still being potent.

 

What different kinds of 2jzs are there: The 2jz blocks you will encounter will be mainly 4 kinds, the 2jz-ge, the 2jz-ge VVTI, the 2jz-gte, and the 2jz-gte VVTI. The VVTI is the variable valve train system and can be noted by a bulge on the intake side of the cam gear cover. The gte motors can be differentiated from the ge motors via their one piece spark plug cover, the lack of cross over intake and obviously the turbos. The oil pans that we want are going to be rear sump pans found in the SC300 and the NA and turbo Supras. There are some other differences between later versions and earlier versions as well as exported vs domestic models, strangely one of the seemingly few times it seems like the american market got a better model with exported 2jz-gte engines featuring higher output injectors and steel compressor wheels.

 

2jz-gte VVTI and 2jz-ge VVTI

2jvvti.jpg

2jzgte Non-VVTI

131-nonvvti1.JPG

 

VVTI vs non-VVTI: It will be up to you what you want to run, the VVTI system can help with spooling up the turbo a bit faster, but will require an ECU that is capable of managing the system. The plain old non VVTI is easier in the aspect that it does not have the system to deal with. The VVTI also runs at higher compression by raising the compression while maintaining the stroke. That means the pistons physically come closer to the valves to the point that the VVTI motors ARE interference motors. Non-VVTI motors ARE NOT interference motors. Additionally in NA spec, the non-VVTI rods are thicker and wider while the VVTI rods are thinner and skinnier

 

non-VVTI rods on the left, VVTI rods on the right

rod%20003.jpg

 

2jz-ge vs the 2jz-gte: If you plan on running a stock ECU, then you will run into limitations with the GE motors. They are dizzy driven and with the relatively high compression values of 10:1 you will run into issues with modest amounts of boost. This can of course be rectified with a programmable dizzy or electronically controlled ignition along with lowering the compression via a much thicker head gasket, but it will be up to the user to determine what they desire. Benefits of the 2jz-gte include a Forward Facing Intake Manifold, 440-550cc injectors, turbo manifolds, twin turbos, oil squirters, turbo feed and drain fittings, a fairly forgiving ECU, and personally a more aesthetically pleasing valve cover. The downfall is that they have movie status, and that depending on your location finding one at an affordable price may prove difficult, with many commanding prices of 3-4k right from the engine importer. Alternatively you can purchase the lowly 2jz-ge block usually with a warranty from an importer for under 1k or from a junkyard for below $500.

 

 

Still editing and will correct and add more info as needed!

Edited by seattlejester

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was originally headed this direction. The aristo 2JZ GTE are plentiful. In Quebec Canada you can pick one up with 50k miles or less complete with all accessories, wiring harness, maf etc, auto trans for 1500 Canadian. That's about $17 bucks US right? Hehe.

 

The manual transmission is the problem. Getrag 6speed are going for $3500-4000. The older 5 speed are fragile and people still want 1500+ for them.

 

Rear sump pan swap is required from the aristo engine. There are lots of expensive aftermarket pans but I had trouble finding an oem one for a fair price.

 

The turbo will hit the passenger side shock tower. Different manifold must be sourced.

 

On a positive note. Local guy dropped an aristo engine and auto trans in a 260z with a 70mm Chinese turbo and ran [email protected] car really needs a higher stall. 60ft (1.9-2.0) were terrible and the turbo was laggy but man when the boost came on it flew.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With the background out of the way I want to focus on the specifics of the 2jz-ge NA-T swap.

 

Acquiring the engine

As it sounds to do this swap we start off with an NA 2jz-ge engine. As mentioned earlier the desired engine will be from an SC300 or an NA MK4 supra. Personally the SC300 engine seems to be much easier to source and on my quick search yielded 4 engines below $1000.

 

For reference the four engines I found were as follows:

$900 - out of an sc300 86k miles from a japanese engine recycler, 30 day warranty

$650 - out of an sc300, 123k miles purchased from a wreckers, had new belts and accessories, but was converted to front sump, engine was running on AEM

$600 - out of an sc300, 173k miles, engine was running prior to pull

$200 - out of an sc300, unknown miles, missing crank pulley, unknown condition

 

I reached out to the second on the list, which is when I found out that it was a front sump, he said he could do $500 and deliver if I was interested since he misplaced the rear sump setup. He even referred me to the third engine on the list. Third engine was high mileage and the seller stated that they go over 400k miles regularly. While that may be true, using that to try and sell the engine didn't do it for me so I stayed with the second one. The last engine on the list turned up after I had setup the deal. I contacted the seller with thoughts that I could buy the engine, swap pans and sell the other engine to those who wanted a front sump (cressida, miata, bmw I think). The seller said that he had no info on the engine that it was left in his shop and that he was looking for a front sump and so wanted to sell it. I asked if he would be interested in trading for a front sump and thus my deal was set. Acquire engine number two and swap the pan for engine number four. 

 

 

 

Rear oil pan:

The 2jz came with 3 different oil pan locations. These are the front, mid, and rear sump. The front sump is pretty obvious, the mid sump is going to have a full pan somewhere in the middle, the rear sump is going to look similar except the lower pan is going to be notched favoring the rear. Be careful given that many 2jz-gte motors are sold with front sumps and people desire the rear sump for chassis with steerings racks up front some people will try to pedal the wrong pan or mislabel pans.

 

The 2jz also came with an upper and lower oil pan, with the upper pan being made out of aluminum and acting almost like a brace. For a complete swap the parts desired are, the upper oil pan, the lower oil pan, the baffle, the pickup tube, the oil dip stick, and potentially the oil level sender if desired. All these can be acquired new still, but at a price of $750 or more it would be preferable to buy an engine with the rear sump.

 

At the time of purchase two used sets were available online at ebay at about $300. Luckily I managed to work out a trade for most of the parts.

 

There are several 10mm bolts holding the lower steel pan on after removing tapping in a screw driver with a rubber mallet lifted the surface easily. With that removed you can remove the oil level sender with 4x10mm bolts, then the baffle with 2 or 3 10mm bolts. The oil pickup can also be removed with two 10mm nuts. Be careful you don't loose the gasket. With the pickup and baffle removed you have access to the 12 or 14mm bolts holding the upper oil pan to the block. After all the bolts are removed look for the special pry slots on the side near the rear of the block, sticking a flathead hear and twisting the block easily comes apart.

 

When applying the new pan you want to apply an adequate amount of silicone, but not too much. I've encountered it before, but here once again I encountered an overuse of silicone with large gobs protruding in towards the rotating assembly. Too much and you can clog up your pickup, if you are not sure how much is enough use a roller with adequate pressure! If you want to be precise the manual recommends a 2-3mm bead. Trust me even at that amount you will have plenty squeeze out so try not to go overboard. The exact route to take around the bolts are also located in the manual.

 

 

 

Turbo oil drain:

While the upper oil pan is physically off the block is an excellent time to drill out the location for the turbo oil drain. Thankfully all oil pans seem to come with the turbo drain flange cast into the aluminum. It is a simple matter of drilling the hole in the flange and introducing the drain fitting. A simple hole can be carefully drilled with the pan on the block and the engine flushed if inconvenient, but it is quite easy to take the pan off while the engine is on a stand and highly recommended for a clean install.

 

67A361BD-0A09-4958-8B76-8ECBC7960FB1_zps

 

Correction, with the upper oil pan off the engine is the ONLY time to drill out the location. Drilling out the aluminum sent an entire handful of aluminum everywhere. You might be able to do the old oil pan on the car trick with a thin steel oil pan, but with this aluminum oil pan you really want to consider taking it off the car.

 

9775F079-0CBE-4952-B73E-FF6AAD67B1C3_zps

 

Some stats, the holes for the bolts to secure a flange are 4.3mm wide and 15mm deep. That is native for a M5 tap, but highly recommended to just widen it out. I wanted to stay towards the metric spectrum although it will be AN fittings, so I decided to step up a little bit to a M6x1 bolt that way if I end up stripping it I can size up. I used my brain and thought to get a 25mm bolt as the flange was 10mm. Think about it, a tap will have a tip and won't make threads all the way to the bottom. I think I drilled the hole an additional 10-15mm just to get a couple threads in the top. You can drill all the way through into the pan, but then you have to consider teflon or sealing the bolt holes so I decided not to do that. With a couple washers I was able to tap the holes sufficiently to attach the AZ performance flange which has an integrated o-ring for sealing and a milled AN-10 Male fitting.

 

Alternatively:

You can purchase a block off plate with a 10AN fitting on it for the oil level sender from drift motion.

 

Turbo oil feed:

This is most easily taken from the driver side of the block via an IS300 pressure sending bolt. This bolt secures the oil filter adapter, but the IS300 has a hole and threads to intercept an oil pressure signal. You can either run a fitting straight off of the bolt or T the bolt for oil pressure and feed functions. The threading is for a 1/8 BSPT. While similar to a 1/8 NPT it is off by one thread per inch count. That means you will get maybe two threads in before the thread mismatch really binds up hard. Some people just crank a 1/8 NPT fitting in, I recommend buying an adapter so it can be removed without risking blowing out the threads or having to buy a new adapter bolt.

 

 

 

Headgasket:

Now would also be an excellent time to do an inspection of the head and swap the head gasket. There are a couple options here, but basically you want to avoid the 0.2mm stock head gasket. You can use the 2jzgte head gasket which is 1.3mm which will bring compression to around 9.2:1. Alternatively you can use a 2.4 or 2.5mm gasket from cometic or the supra store or other locations to bring it down to a very boost friendly 8.5:1. This will of course depend on if you went with a VVTI or non VVTI system as their compression values differ slightly. Also keep in mind lowering the compression via the head gasket will reduce the quench area as the head gasket spaces the combustion chamber apart. 

 

The stock head gasket leaves a lot of residue and what I assume to be compressed/burnt rubber. To make the surface adequate for sealing I chose to use a 120 grit bristle Roloc wheel from 3m. At $10 a wheel and $5 for the adapter to fit a die grinder it is far easier to scrape then using a razor blade scraper. 

 

There are heated arguments regarding copper spray. Cometic uses a rubber coating to assist with sealing on their gaskets, using copper spray which has acetone will lift the coating off allowing it to shift. Many have reportedly used the copper spray anyways to no ill effect. Personally after conversation with cometic, I have decided not to use the copper spray. I will update if it comes to bite me and I have to spray the surface down.

 

 

 

Rebuild:

Now the question comes, with the head off and the block stripped what is stopping you from a refresh? It all comes down to what you are comfortable with and what you desire. It is true, these engines can handle a fair amount of abuse and have fairly long life expectancies. A rebuild from my local shop costs around $1000 (400 for head rebuild, 250 for short block assembly, 100 for deglaze, 100 for wash, 150 or so for fitting new rings, 100 for preliminary clean freeze plug removal and freeze plug installation) if you bring it to them and assemble it yourself. On the flip side engines with good compression may last for quite a while, so it depends on if you are the type of person who is a "while I am at it" or if you are the type of person who is "don't fix it if it ain't broke" of course there is merit to do while it is out and in pieces, but to each their own. 

 

After pulling the head, my 123k motor had factory cross hatching that was still intact, no visible cracks on the mating surface, pistons that cleaned up very easily which said this motor still had a lot of life left in it.

 

I found a lot of hard rust like buildup on the exhaust valves, given I was going with a legitimate turbo I did not want to shoot these hard bits at the exhaust wheel so I opted for a head rebuild. Head rebuild by a familiar shop in my area cost about $700. It is usually about $500, but they wanted to use better quality valve stem seals then the ones I supplied and had to buy 24 new shims at ~$5 a piece after machining the valves and changing the angle of the valve seats to hold more boost. If you are very cheap you can probably have a shop just do a valve regrind and clean for around $400. I opted for the extra services for my absolute end game.

Edited by seattlejester

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yea I was tempted to look north for an import especially with the strong US dollar or I guess the falling Canadian dollar, but organizing transport seemed a bit tedious.

 

I am planning on covering transmission and turbo options in a later post. I've done quite a bit of thinking and searching, so somethings I may have come across may be new to some who haven't kept a pulse on the new things coming into play.

 

I'm pretty sure I've seen a few twin turbo setups on S30 cars, I guess it depends on how you mount the engine to some degree. Will hopefully cover that in some good detail in a little while as well.

Edited by seattlejester

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Engine mounts:

Now this is a fairly specific affair putting a Toyota 2jz into a Datsun S30, but as testament to how ubiquitous the swap is there are several swap kits. 3 off the shelf kits exist that I am familiar with. Tech2 has a complete kit including drive shaft and trans mount, Betamotorsports had a cross member that used the factory toyota mounts with a cross member welded into the Z chassis which the jig has been purchased by a member here although I am not sure he is still producing them (interesting fact, I actually thought of purchasing the jig at one point when johnc offered it for sale, but had just moved into a smaller work space and decided against it RIP john), and third is the CX racing mount which is just an adapter piece that bolts to the factory cross member and leans back towards the factory holes on the toyota motor and another mount to fit to 73+ transmission tunnels. Of course there is always an option to build one yourself and if you are handy with a welder, have access to a die grinder and a drill or better yet a plasma cutter and a drill press is a matter of a couple hours.

 

However due to my limited space my option is to modify a pre made mount for my use. Since I personally already have a drive shaft built and the R154 transmission mounted I don't need a full kit, and as the cross member is not available and since I actually had a similar design to the CX racing kit for my 7m, I feel comfortable purchasing that one and modifying it as needed to fit up to my R154. The CX racing kit comes in two varieties just the engine mount version for ~300 and another one with the trans mount for ~400. The trans mount looks like it is designed to bolt into the 73 and later trans mount which means that the transmission is going to hang a bit lower. Given my preference for having exhaust and transmissions tucked up in the tunnel and the modification no doubt required, I am choosing to keep my mount and modify the engine mount to adapt to my location.

 

For the CX kit it ends up mounting the engine quite a bit forward and pushes the engine quite a bit to the passenger side. On contact they said it was to avoid the steering column and make room for the intake. As of now, the steering column clears fine in my modified setup so that is not a consideration for moving the engine over. On my setup as well I plan on having the turbo quite close to the passenger shock tower so leaning it over on that side would have been doubly bad so I centered the engine. This requires a spacer for the passenger side and the driver side tabs to be moved back, down, and to the side. 

 

 

 

Transmission

This may be getting ahead of the game, but it is important to consider as it may determine other things down stream. There are several standard transmission options and then several odd transmission options. Once again thanks to the ubiquitous use of the swap we have a lot of contenders here.

 

Your standard options are from the toyota range:

A341E: The standard automatic transmission that comes with the 2jz can be acquired fairly cheaply and can be made to work with some modification. It is fairly svelte and can handle a decent amount of HP, but it will loose more power through the transmission and modifications will need to be made like an external cooler and such to keep the transmission happy.

 

W58: The standard manual transmission that came on the Sc300 is the W58. These are smaller 5-speed transmissions and can handle some power for a small amount of time, but is generally considered not adequate for higher horsepower applications.

 

R154: The larger R154 came standard on the 1jzgte equpped Mk3 supra, and as the 2jz shares the same bell housing pattern and bolt hole size as the 1jz, can be adapter to use the R154 with a 1jz bellhousing and 1jz flywheel. There are a few weaknesses to this transmission such as the thrust washer breaking and weaker shift forks. Not to mention this is a massive transmission, you will need to cut out the trans tunnel mount in later cars 73 and later. These are suffering from a supply shortage, although they came on the Mk3 supra, being the affordable strong transmission option for 2jz swaps means that their supply has been quickly diminishing. These are fairly hard to find for under $1000 and rebuilds can be time consuming and costly.

 

V160 and V161: This 6-speed was jointly developed with the famous Getrag and is said to handle a ludicrous amount of power with several 1000hp cars running them reliably. At a cost of 3k+ this is probably not going to be on the list for many individuals. This came standard on the twin turbo MK4 manual cars and I believe the last year of the NA supra also was given this transmission.

 

As mentioned given the status of the 2jz it has been used in several swaps on several makes meaning quite a few off the shelf adapters are available for use.

Your odd options:

T56: Use behind a lot of late model american V8's these can be adapted with a bell housing and other bits. Given that a lot of people like this transmission and is a popular swap for a lot of cars including american V8's these tend to stay high in price

 

GM auto: several GM automatic transmission will bolt to a 2jz using an adapter housing. Popular for drag racing and such these transmissions can hold quite a bit of power and can be had either very cheaply or you can find ones from vendors that are built to handle high hp abuse for a tidy sum.

 

CD009: The late model 350z transmission has become more popular. Collins adapter makes a fairly comprehensive swap kit to get this transmission behind the 2jz with an adapter plate. A shifter relocator will have to be used. These transmissions seem to be in that special twilight area where you can find them very affordably or not usually under $1000 at the moment.

 

BMW ZF or Getrag: A seemingly new swap to the field at least for the US. Collins adapter is offering a kit to swap one of these in fairly pain free. Asking a friend the listed transmissions especially the ZF ones can be had for cheap and can hold quite a bit of power. These kits have been around in europe for a while as the 2jz is a popular swap to replace BMW inline 6's of the E30, E36, E46 era, now available through Collins adapter. One such transmission is available locally for a meager sum of $400

 

AR5: Most recognizably used in the pontiac solstice and saturn sky, these transmissions are apparently a derivative of the R154 with the kinks worked out. Supposedly these can handle just as much power, these can also be found in later model Chevy S10's in the RWD manual variety. These will need an adapter for the rear output shaft to a more traditional setup, most likely a shifter relocator, and some modifications for the bearing retainer and input shaft. 

 

For me personally I have an R154. I already have a driveshaft and a trans mount bespoke to this installed and I even have a shifter relocator kit waiting to go in. While some thoughts have crossed my mind and I do have some reservations regarding my transmission I think I will stick with it for now at least to get the car on the road. Boring, I'm sorry, but the benefit of going from toyota driveline to toyota driveline. 

 

Clutch:

Crankwalk seems to be a thing with aftermarket pressure plates. Although this has been documented on automatics as well which is more of a confounding variable.

 

It seems advice is to stay away from ACT pressure plates as the pressure required to push or pull depending on transmission seems to cause wear on the floating thrust bearings that this motor has.

 

General advice seems to be use good oil and to go with a clutch switch delete, start the car in neutral, then clutch it into gear. 

Edited by seattlejester

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks, still a work in progress still need to add all the photos and such.

 

I would really like to hear feedback on how the rebuilt tranny feels. My plan is to eventually send it down to drift motion to have it rebuilt along with their shift fork upgrades and all the marlin crawler upgrades, but I have heard that it feels no different and still notchy which would be a little sad given the price.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've driven a mk3 Supra with and without the MC upgrades done on a R154. The upgrades help hold power and make downshifts a bit easier. However, that long throw and notchy shifting of an 80's transmission remains. I ended up selling the stock R154 for $1200 and picked up a CD009 trans for $200 and the adapter plate and for $400.

Edited by Geno750

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks, still a work in progress still need to add all the photos and such.

 

I would really like to hear feedback on how the rebuilt tranny feels. My plan is to eventually send it down to drift motion to have it rebuilt along with their shift fork upgrades and all the marlin crawler upgrades, but I have heard that it feels no different and still notchy which would be a little sad given the price.

I have never sampled the R154 or my rebuilt one, just knew I definitely could not afford the Getrag V160 as the only ones available at the time were in the $4000 range and I was not aware of the CD009 option then. I did get a good deal on the R154 and barely used Spec dual disc clutch. It will be some time before the reassembly of this build as I subscribe to the "Fix, replace while I'm at it" progam.  

 

I've driven a mk3 Supra with and without the MC upgrades done on a R154. The upgrades help hold power and make downshifts a bit easier. However, that long throw and notchy shifting of an 80's transmission remains. I ended up selling the stock R154 for $1200 and picked up a CD009 trans for $200 and the adapter plate and for $400.

 

 

This is good to know and now has me pondering options.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would like to put in my 2 cents here.

I went with a 1JZ because I got the ENTIRE swap for 2400 us currency. Thats 1jz gte non vvti, w58 etc.

I got it through a local shop in the vancouver, bc area who bought it from an importer. Reason why I did this was for warranty purpose. THe shop has a good reputation and was very easy to deal with!

 

In hindsight..I should have ponied up the extra $1000 for the 2JZ swap...but Its in the car an running ludicrously well!

 

ECM:

I scrapped the stock toyota control because of a couple reasons:

 

Plastic connectors were worn and brittle;

aging wiring harness, custom cutting and splicing would be needed

Control was overcomplicated from the factory (its got some nice features but I didn't need them for what I wanted)

Chipping the stock computer is difficult; i did not want band aid piggy back control

 

 

So I went with a super easy to use/start Microtech EFI.  I fabricated a brand new harness custom to the Datsun engine bay, got a used ecm and was all in for $1200. 

The car starts, idles and runs marvelously with GOBS of power!

 

Radiator

I went with Champion Radiators 3 row for $200...It is THICK, bolts right up to factory mounts and uses toyota factory hoses with NO issues!!! I am super happy with it

http://www.championradiators.com/Datsun-280z-radiator-1975-1978

 

Mounts

I also went with CX racing for mounts. It was cheap, it works and have no issues

 

Intercooler

I went with CX racing again for this. I got their intercooler kit with piping..It fits like a glove! Super happy with this product for the value!

 

 

 

Just my experience... I am just over the border if you want to take a look at what I did. Its running at the moment but the interior is in 1 million pieces lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My story is a bit like yours. I got a 1JZ non vvti for $600. It was a MK3 1JZ though, and came with the 5 speed ecu and harness, no flywheel or transmission. I sold the harness and ECU after successful removal from the engine with 0 damaged connectors for $550. Sold the stock turbos for $150, so the engine was -$100 to start. However I got a deal on a 2JZGTE vvti head, and will probably bolt that onto my bottom end and enjoy the increased flow and better torque of vvti. Just means buying another turbo manifold.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've heard that it can be buttery smooth after a rebuild, but that is just one persons opinion. I actually didn't think it shifted terribly with the long stock shifter. I switched to a beech performance short shifter just so I wasn't hitting the center console and it is crisp, but notchy. Still grinds a bit going into reverse.

 

Greeko: thanks for the input always nice to see how others went their routes and why. 

 

Gen750: Yea I've been keeping an eye out for a 2jzgte head, I am a sucker for valve covers and FFIM which that comes with, factoring in the price of those two pieces alone almost pays for itself, combine that with the higher flow injectors and it is a pretty even score. Haven't had any luck sourcing one though.

 

Just as a general notice, if anyone wants to further add or expand please feel free, I'll try and edit posts to reflect tidbits that may flow better. Just copy the format of BOLD for the categories and Bold and italicized for sub categories for easy recognition and navigation. Also please only add information that is easily verifiable, with part numbers, prices etc etc etc. I would like this to be a useable reference. I have a butt load of pictures and will have part numbers to add to each section as I go through the process of ordering parts. This was originally more of a reference for myself and how I decided things, but if we can crowd source for more info that could prove to be even more useful.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Work in progress on this post need to work it out but don't want to type this up again

 

Turbo manifold:

There are several options here as well going for a fully custom fabricated tubular twin scroll manifold to a fairly simple cast open port log manifold. Of course there are ebay options or other knock off/chinese options available. It is actually frightening how much power some of these kits are making fairly reliably. The line between you get what you pay for is starting to blur for me, but the downfall is that you never know when the line will blur one way or the other for a knockoff manifold and if and when it does your aftermarket support will be non existent. I went through three ebay headers on another car and finally went back to factory. I can't imagine they would last all that much longer when they have to support a heavy turbo and the pressures associated with them.

 

They key here is that you have to order for your head. The 2jz-gte and the 2jz-ge unfortunately do no share the same exhaust pattern thus you will be limited to the NA selection.

 

It will be up to you to decide how crazy you want to go here. Keep in mind that the turbo will sit awfully close to the passenger strut tower. That means you either want a manifold that will put the turbo rearward, upward, way forward etc. Having it smack in the middle and far out is going to be problematic. Also note that if you have a manifold that puts it too far rearward you are going to run into problems with routing the exhaust towards the trans tunnel.

 

If you were really on a budget and didn't need the hood I think I noticed you could flip the stock manifolds and do a front mount turbo. 

 

Personally, ebay/knockoff was off the list for me, while tempting I just felt like it wasn't going to last. I don't think I need the boost response nor the precision from a twin scroll equal length manifold, so I could easily decide to use the cast stainless steel manifold with a lifetime warranty against cracking from treadstone. Even better I found one used from a forum member so it was a no brainer.

 

 

 

Intake manifold:

This isn't really a required part and you can clear the hood even with the cross over manifold, but I don't like picking up the intercooler piping on the same side and aesthetically it bothers me. The benefit of a front facing manifold are easier piping for intercooler, a chance to clean up all the boost/reference lines, and easier access to spark plugs.

 

You have a couple options here:

D tube with a flange: simplest option you can actually buy the D-tube and a cap and make it yourself or you can find one pre-made. Downfall here is that these usually bolt to the lower intake runner on the stock manifold that means there is always a possibility that you can loose hardware into your engine.

 

Stand alone aluminum manifold: these while being similar in design can vary in price from $500-$2500. These are straight replacements and will bolt onto the head. I have the cheaper one of these on my 7m. When I first started the car up it idled at 3000 rpm with the throttle body closed. I took it to a machine shop and it was found that the manifold flange was extremely warped, I believe he said he had to do 2 or 3 runs on the belt sander to even it out.

 

2jz-gte JDM intake: apparently it is possible to bolt with some minor modification a specific JDM 2jz-gte intake to the lower runners. This locates the intake much higher then the engine which might be problematic with how the hood is shaped, thus I am not sure this is a good fit.

 

Custom: Usually requires some use of the lower intake manifold but other then that it is pretty much fair game as to the shape. A competent welder with aluminum should be able to make one for you for a relatively good price.

 

Personally I went with the XS manifold to bolt to the lower intake runners. Dexter has them on his car and looks like it works without problems. He blazed the trail here on this application and I am just following. While I was tempted to do a stand alone aluminum manifold at $500 or more on top of the price of the D tube, I couldn't justify it. I may end up turning this into somewhat of a custom affair though and weld the D tube onto the lower intake runner to do away with the bolts and such. Time will tell.

 

 

Turbo selection:

This one is really going to be a doozy, I'll try and summarize it or provide more real world examples at a later date. Really it is up to the end user to decide, I will try and give a couple of general bits of information and more specific to the 2jz NA-T side of things. First off is some terminology. You have your compressor side which compresses the intake air. This side is connected via a shaft to a turbine or hot side which is bolted to the turbo manifold. Passing exhaust gasses spin the turbine/hot side and the shaft transfers this motion to the cold/compressor side.

 

Cold Side:

The amount of air that a turbo will ultimately flow is determined by the speed that the center assembly moves and the size of the compressor side turbine. The thing is that while a small turbo might flow a lot of air if you spin it faster and faster once it dips out of its efficiency range the turbo will start heating up the air that it is compressing as well as start wearing out prematurely. These stats can be found via compressor maps as to the flow characterisitics at what pressure ratio how much flow is generated. Ideally you would want to be close to the max efficiency of the turbo at several rpm ranges. Being off the center island means a compromise of sorts it may mean that while you are in low boost the turbo is efficient, but at high boost you start moving off the center island. Ideally you want a proper sized turbo that will get you to your power levels with a little room above if needed.

 

Hot side:

This is the driven side the exhaust gasses are routed through this side and spin the turbine. As you can imagine this means quite a few things. A common number you see associated with hot sides is A/R without going into too much specifics this basically is the area ratio or the size of the housing in relation to the cross sectional area. A smaller A/R means that the turbo will spool up faster the housing is physically smaller and thus the gas being directed to it have more velocity, but on the flip side that small opening at the top end becomes a restriction you risk choking the turbo with the size restriction limiting the speed it can spin at. Ideally you want to spool up quickly while being able to hit your max targeted boost number. 0.63+ is recommended on an S256sx that spools around 3k RPM. Going up above 1.00 is not recommended as that will most likely make a very peaky turbo that will take a long time to spool and have very limited use.

 

So the main point is to be wary of recommendations people offer when browsing supra forums. You have to understand that their cars are much heavier, built with much higher rated components (diff/axle/transmission) and that they can cope with some of the downfalls of a large turbo. You also have to note that strangely enough a lot of people run bandaids on their setups, tricking stock ECU's with larger injectors and throttle bodies and such. A lot of people will also size turbos for future goals which given the stout bottom end can mean some really ludicrous numbers so beware. 

 

For our chassis a large turbo is likely to hit harder and have a much higher chance of breaking some of our weaker components such as the stub axles or the axles so we want to size appropriately for our uses. A pretty good option is to actually look for recommendations on the L28ET for 350-400hp or so. The 2jz is slightly higher displacement which will mean it spools a little faster with the same A/R, or that it might choke a little bit more up top if the A/R is too small, so stepping up slightly will be fine. A 60 trim turbo will output way more then a stock chassis will need anyone recommendations of a turbo larger then that should be taken with caution.

 

Some turbos that seem like a good fit for 300-400hp with room to grow

Garrett T04E 57trim

Garrett GT3071R GT3076R (55mm inducer wheel)

Borg Warner S257SX-E

Borg Warner S256SX

 

As can be seen a 55-57mm inducer wheel will be fairly adequate for my personal goals, my friend has an S256sx on his 2.8L BMW motor and can't bleed enough exhaust through his 40mm waste gate to keep boost levels below 300hp. 

 

I'll go into sizing later as this already seems verbose.

 

A note as to why turbo's cost as much as they do:

Building a turbo is a fairly involved process to get the housings for both the cold and hot side, requiring casting and cores for most turbos. Then precision balancing comes into play on the rotating assembly which spin at very high speed. The downfall with the knockoff offerings are the lack of quality control and frankly plain old oversight. Problems range from thin shaft material causing the rotating assembly to snap. Poorly machined surfaces which can cause premature bearing wear, and even drastic issues like glueing the compressor housing to the center assembly or flat out housings separating due to poor material composition. A turbo builder remarked that the demo pieces presented to him were great, but when they made a surprise visit to the factory in china they found much lower quality material was being used. They had them destroy these low quality housings on the spot, but a factory could easily divert these to another seller to be resold on knock off turbos. 

 

Ebay Turbo's:

This is bound to come up, and having looked into what is available here are my thoughts on the matter.

For some sellers it does not matter for them what they sell. There have been reports of people who have taken apart large T4 size turbos and find small T25 size shafts connecting the impeller these would essentially work until they saw load and the shaft would shear almost instantly. Other reports of weak cast material for the compressor and turbine housing means fractures are only a matter of time. Other reports find that the balance is off or the seals are leaking. Those are reports from no name ebay turbos.

However, it seems like if you do your searching you can find some of these turbo's and expect some life expectancy out of them. VS racing and CX racing are two companies that have embraced the Ebay Turbo and in some cases making decent power out of them fairly reliably. What you should expect is that life expectancy will be really low, factor in about 10,000 miles before they need inspection or replacement. Given the price of some of these turbo's that may be an easy choice for someone to make. Keep in mind the downfalls: a really blown seal can ignite and cause a run away situation, a sudden loss of boost pressure can cause a massive rich condition, and a blown housing can cause incorrect signals to the o2 sensor which can lean out the injectors. If those situations are acceptable trade offs for saving 1/2 the price of the turbo it will be up to the purchaser to decide.

 

 

Turbo add ons:

To combat the problem of boost thresholds being high with a big turbo, but a lack of bottom end with a small turbo, Toyota opted to go with a sequential turbo setup from the factory. This system closes off one turbo while under a certain boost threshold funneling all the gas to one turbine (acting as a small A/R) and when it gets to a certain pressure it opens the second turbo essentially doubling the capacity allowing the now more abundant gasses to spin both turbos. While this works it does mean a more complicated system with two turbos two sets of oil lines, two water lines and so on. Given modern non water cooled turbos and things such as twin scroll and ball bearings as well as quick spool valves you can get very responsive single turbos that still deliver on the top end.

 

Quick spool valve:

A common item in the supra community is the quick spool valve with an open setup. It basically behaves like the old sequential setup, but instead of shutting down a second turbo it shuts off half of the exhaust flow to the turbo. Thus the same theory applies, more speed through the smaller opening equals quicker spool, at a certain point the valve is then opened and the top end can be maintained. Thus with items like these people who run 2jz's tend to run fairly large sized turbos, much more then any sane person really needs in our cars.

 

Waste gate:

On the flip side is that these large turbos can build a large amount of boost. The key here is that as your engine speeds up it consumes more air so to maintain this boost pressure the turbo must move more CFM, this is easy as the more air consumed the more exhaust gets put out to spin the turbine, but this relation is not linear! That means if all the exhaust is put through the hot side you will see boost levels climb until the turbine is maxed out or things start to wear and break. The waste gate serves to bleed off exhaust thus diverting some of the gas that has to flow through the turbine thus controlling boost. Turbo sizing is important here. If you pick a large turbo, but decide to run low amounts of boost a lot of exhaust gas has to be diverted through the waste gate. Even large waste gates cannot deal with excess exhaust, which means a second one may have to be added. At $300ish a pop it is not worth it. Size your turbo correctly for your application to avoid this. An incorrectly sized waste gate (as in too small) will cause boost creep as even with the waste gate fully open it cannot divert enough exhaust to slow down the turbine speed.

 

Your main options are going to be Tial and Turbosmart. Other brands exist, but as far as I am concerned these are going to be safe reliable bets with good customer service. 

 

Be wary of knock off waste gates, these control aspects of your turbo. Best case scenario they break open and the turbo never gets up to desired pressure. Worse case scenario they break closed and all the exhaust diverts to your turbo which if you oversized it or your map can't compensate for a boost spike means at best a blown off coupler at worse destroying your turbo and engine.

Edited by seattlejester

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've heard that it can be buttery smooth after a rebuild, but that is just one persons opinion. I actually didn't think it shifted terribly with the long stock shifter. I switched to a beech performance short shifter just so I wasn't hitting the center console and it is crisp, but notchy. Still grinds a bit going into reverse.

 

Greeko: thanks for the input always nice to see how others went their routes and why. 

 

Gen750: Yea I've been keeping an eye out for a 2jzgte head, I am a sucker for valve covers and FFIM which that comes with, factoring in the price of those two pieces alone almost pays for itself, combine that with the higher flow injectors and it is a pretty even score. Haven't had any luck sourcing one though.

 

Just as a general notice, if anyone wants to further add or expand please feel free, I'll try and edit posts to reflect tidbits that may flow better. Just copy the format of BOLD for the categories and Bold and italicized for sub categories for easy recognition and navigation. Also please only add information that is easily verifiable, with part numbers, prices etc etc etc. I would like this to be a useable reference. I have a butt load of pictures and will have part numbers to add to each section as I go through the process of ordering parts. This was originally more of a reference for myself and how I decided things, but if we can crowd source for more info that could prove to be even more useful.

 

 

Honestly if you're thinking of going 2JZGTE head, you could buy the entire engine for about $1500, especially given your proximity to Canada where the dollar is strong. Buy the entire engine and sell the bits you don't need.

 

Also on QSV's, they are currently mostly found on the cast manifolds for 2JZ (can google spa cast 2jz) and they would more than likely put a turbo in the middle of our passenger side shock tower. A true twinscroll manifold with twinscroll turbo would have better transient response as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The cheapest one I can find near me is $2500, problem is space for me. I don't have a lot of it. I have to play tetris as it is now to even have room for the engine stand and crane, the things i would do if I only had the room...more of a passing thought, I am already committed to the ge engine and head as parts have already been ordered.

 

Right QSV's are found usually on open manifolds feeding twin scroll housing'd turbo chargers. It depends really on how the manifold is located and the size of the manifold, the flange itself is only about 1/2 an inch or so from what I can tell. We will have to see how things go, with my 7m with the stock cast manifold I had quite a bit of room, although that was a fairly small sized turbo. Hopefully the big parts will be ordered in the next week or so, and then I can figure out how much room I have to play with.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah that's the key, small sized turbo. Using a QSV usually means bigger turbo. It's definitely a balancing act. I also know exactly what you mean about playing Tetris for space.

 

ky0IZqW.jpg

 

Moving everything from one body to another is a giant time sink.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Minor considerations, again work in progress.

 

EGR:

 

So it is a simple system, dirty up the incoming air to reduce emissions. Problem is that it is fairly bulky, and when changing to a FFIM the port no longer faces a correct direction. It also introduces an absolutely massive amount of carbon and grime into the intake tract which in turn makes its way to the head and combustion chamber. Really they need to have implemented a catch can system, but hind sight I suppose.

 

The premise is exhaust is routed back behind the cylinder head, cooled by a the EGR cooler, then passed through the side of the head and up to the intake port.

 

In the 7m, the common practice is to block off the EGR cooler port in the back of the head. Thus preventing the hot gas from entering the cooler and needlessly heating up the rear.

 

The same manufacturer who makes the block off plate for the rear in the 7m and a former forum member ARZ, strangely only makes it for the side leaving the exhaust gasses to pool on the 2jz. I am not sure as to why thechange. Dexter72 has followed the 7m mantra and drilled out the port that introduces the exhaust in the EGR cooler and blocked it with a pipe thread plug. I believe I will be using a block off plate with copper gasket material.

 

Heater core bypass:

Despite the weather being miserable most of the year, I have survived without a heater. Without a radio or comfortable seats this car isn't really useful for me in the colder months, so it was not a challenge. The engine has provisions to hook up heat via the rear of the head and a conveniently supplied pipe on the passenger side, but for the moment I do not have plans to use it.

 

Two schools of thought are present here. 

School A: says to loop the coolant like we do on the L series. That allows for another passage to cool off the rear of the head if my circulation path is correct.

School B: says to block it off at the head and at the water pump. This ends up looking much cleaner, and as far as I have noticed had no problem when I did this on my 7m. Also using the FSM a user found that the stock heater valve does essentially the same thing, it does not bypass coolant through the heater core even if the heat is not on, it in fact blocks it via a valve until heat is asked for.

 

Personally I do want to put in a universal heater as 280zex did to make my car more functional at least in clearing up the windshield and thus I plan on going with School A so that I can clip the hose and run a universal heater core when the time comes. For now the plan will be to employ a gates # 19193 hose to loop the system.

 

Oil Pump and FMS:

So from what people say you have to use toyota seals for the cam, FMS and RMS. I bought a kit from an after market vendor so I will be comparing the size of the seals to see if there is a difference, experience tells me there may not be, but I will save my judgement till the seals arrive. Those 4 seals cost $70 from toyota, my entire gasket set from the aftermarket vendor cost $70 (valve stem seals, valve gasket seals, spark cover valley seals, all intake, exhaust seals, water pump seal, o-rings, head gasket etc etc etc). 

 

The reason for this obsession seems to stem not only from the time consuming nature of getting at the seal, but also the tendency for the seal to pop out. The timing belt pulley sits right in front of it, but in theory the seal could move forward enough to be destroyed by friction if it interacts with the pulley. The theory behind this seems to be sludgey oil or poor vacuum source for the crank vent causes excess oil pressure/crank case pressure causing the seal to fail. The solutions include a modification to the factory oil pump via a larger relief hole and some porting as well as some more extreme versions calling for screw heads to capture the seal from any movement.

 

One thing I notice is that the FSM calls for MP grease both on the outside and inside of the seal. Looking at other makes and using some logic I think I will be using a form in place gasket on the outside of the seal cementing and holding it in place, while employing the MP grease on the inside for lubrication against the crank. 

 

Additionally I will be routing the crank vent to a catch can which will then draw from the intake pipe feeding the turbo for constant vacuum. 

 

3 seals acquired.

First is the stock toyota seal NOK BH4513F, this is the factory toyota seal it has a depth of 6.4mm

 

Second turns out my engine had the upgraded NOK BH4513E seal, this is the one that has the teeth marks. In theory this helps keep the seal a little taller so away from the drain hole, it is 6.6mm depth and 7mm at the teeth, while it has more depth and more sealing area, if you follow the manual and seat it flush with the pump you will end up pushing it in further which defeats the goal of the teeth

 

Third is a Lok 46631, this came in a generic kit, it measures 6.2mm depth

 

The oil drain hole starts at ~5.2mm inside the orifice and extends down to 10.2mm or so, making it seem like a 5mm hole. If one were to push in the seal a little too much it can easily be seen how that would end up blocking off quite a bit of the hole as it already is blocking off 1.X mm depending on your seal if you push it in to the recommended point. Also one needs to make sure that the grease and FIPG go on the seal with no room for excess to be swiped under the seal as a small glob could plug the drain hole in no time flat.

Edited by seattlejester

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not sure if it'll be much help to you since you're doing the 2j na-t but this guys build on youtube helped me answer some questions.

When i upgrade turbo's later later down the line, im pretty sure i will rematch this. He did a 1jz vvti in a 240sx.

 

Check it out if you have time.

 

https://youtu.be/pFC6y3Vn5IM

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I did see his series, I didn't realize he had updated it recently. Thanks for that.

 

Prepost edit: Goodness gracious though, DO NOT use as much RTV as he did I don't know why people do that, these are almost completely flat surfaces when you tighten the bolts they will have an absolutely minuscule amount of space between the surface the TSRM says to use a 2-3mm bead for the oil pan surface that is 1/10th of an inch, all that RTV has to go somewhere and if it ends up in your pan it will absolutely clog your pickup eventually. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I did see his series, I didn't realize he had updated it recently. Thanks for that.

 

Prepost edit: Goodness gracious though, DO NOT use as much RTV as he did I don't know why people do that, these are almost completely flat surfaces when you tighten the bolts they will have an absolutely minuscule amount of space between the surface the TSRM says to use a 2-3mm bead for the oil pan surface that is 1/10th of an inch, all that RTV has to go somewhere and if it ends up in your pan it will absolutely clog your pickup eventually. 

Hahaha i said the same thing. He uses like half a the tube on one side it looked like. 

And here i was thinking i used too much on mine when i switched from front to rear oil sump lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Water pump:

There are three water pumps you will encounter from what I have found. One is the JDM spec 2jzgte water pump. This has some additional bits I believe to drive a little radiator fan that is offset from the main fan. It is advised to swap this for a USDM model.

 

In the USDM spec you will find the VVTI and non-VVTI pump. The VVTI pump has a smaller diameter for the center of the pulley and M6 size studs, non-VVTI has a a larger diameter for the center of the pulley and M8 size studs.

 

FF1BB161-E7A1-48B5-B0E7-4CD7F67D3BC7_zps

VVTI on top, Non VVTI on bottom

 

The pumps are composed of two main sections the front which contains the pulley and the impeller, and the back which contains the thermostat and bolts to the block. When replacing the front pump make sure you are buying for the correct pump body, the bolt holes will not line up for the most part.

 

When replacing the water pump there are 5 replacement pieces that should be replaced. The thermostat, two o-rings on the water pipe, one o-ring for the flange to the head, and one o-ring for the pump body to the engine block. Using hand soap for the o-rings is a nice trick to get them to slip in without ripping or smashing the o-rings on the thermostat and water pipe.

 

B02CA3BF-3A5A-4CE4-982D-5EBAA28D18E0_zps

Image of thermostat, water pipe o-ring (second one is in the connecting neck not visible), and the connecting neck o-ring on the flange.

Edited by seattlejester

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

ECU:

 

Ultimately depends on your goals, budget, and what you are comfortable with. The function of the ECU is to control when fuel is injected and how much fuel is injected at certain parameters. Given the sensors required most ECUs will also control spark. Some people have fairly reliable setups with running piggy back units and signal modifiers, however this is really a bandaid, tricking the ECU to supply the desired voltage. 

 

Stock: The stock ECU has a bit of room built in. I haven't messed around with it much nor have I looked into it, but on many turbo cars the factory sets the AFR values fairly conservatively as well as timing values. Hopping up the car on the stock ECU you are just playing in that safety margin. 

 

SAFCI/II: These are signal interceptor/manipulators. It basically intercepts a signal that the ECU uses to determine how much fuel to add and modifies it allowing the stock ECU to run bigger injectors at idle and add enough fuel under boost. These units usually do not do anything with spark and timing. The 2jz-gte apparently has a pretty mild timing curve and can use this system for a modest boost up, but it is really a poor way to accomplish the goal, a lot of shops won't even tune on these as it involves using a directional pad and tons of time just moving values up and down.

 

VPC: Another signal interceptor/manipulator. This one is a bit more advanced as it comes with two different sensors to bias the input. Still a fairly poor way to accomplish a goal. This one is adjusted with knobs.

 

Megasquirt: More of a DIY ECU setup. You can buy a board for as cheap as $250 and assemble it yourself or use a company like DIY autotune to buy a preassembled board along with all the accessories you will need. This is a genuine engine controller, capable of controlling spark, running maps, idle control, and lots of other features.

 

SDS:

 

AEM:

 

ECUmasters:

 

Additionally you can buy an older setup if that is something you are willing to do. The 7mgte is also a 3L Turbo Inline 6. The CPS will bolt to the head and the ECU doesn't need to know if this is a 7mgte or a 2jzgte. I imagine the same could be true for other 6 cylinder setups. Running the Z31 V6 ECU on the S30 L6 has been a fairly long staple for example. With enough thought the world really is your oyster.

Edited by seattlejester

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


×