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Cylinder head sensor and MAP MS3

Rebello stroker

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#1 Conedodger

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 07:44 AM

So I've brought home my Rebello built 3.0 stroker motor and mounted it on the stand. I'm at the stage of selecting and installing sensors. I'm pretty much going with the GM style sensors sold through DIYAutotune but I've got a couple questions you guys may be able to clear up for me.
First, I'm using a E31 head that has been modified with big valves, P&P, and injector notches. The E31 never had a cylinder head sensor so I can't just put a compatible one in its place. I probably should have had Rebello drill and tap for one but that's what I get for planning as I go instead of following a well developed plan. Can you guys think of a solution? What have you done? Or have you done without?
Second, I'd like to have altitude compensation as I live at 4500' and regularly travel up to 9000' (I live off Mt. Rose Hwy) and down to sea level. I know at least one friend who used a second MAP sensor to sample for barometric pressure. I've also heard of MAP sensors that are monitoring both. What are your experiences? What have you done successfully?

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#2 jacky4566

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 11:26 AM

Why are you installing a CHT? It's not really necessary unless you are expecting crazy high head temperatures. Just keep the coolant under control.

 

If you are expecting big barometric pressure changes, especially on a high strung NA, then yes i would recommend a second sensor for baro correction. The map daddy upgrade is easy to install but just about any 5v sensor will work. 

 

What manifold are you using? My personal suggestion would be to go with a MAF. Bosch HFM5 are great sensors. This will compensate for Baro and IAT and should work better in high lift cam scenarios where you don't have very good idle vaccum. 



#3 Conedodger

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 11:52 AM

Actually, even the MAP isn't necessary I could run on TPS and I have in other cars but more data is good. So, if someone out there has managed CHT, tell me how you did it.

I'm using an extrude honed early non-EGR L28 intake. A TWM "Big Throat" throttle body.

MAF is planned. Thanks for the suggestion!

#4 Metro

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 12:36 PM

As Jacky mentioned, the MapDaddy MAP sensor is plug'n'play and will solve your barometric issues. 

 

Use a temperature sensor mounted in the thermostat housing, many people here have done that.

 

Running MS3 with with only Alpha-N to tune it is a mildly amusing to me. You have an expensive high resolution ECU, you should take full advantage of it!


Edited by Metro, 20 March 2017 - 12:36 PM.

1976 Datsun 280z L28et | MS2-Extra, wasted spark, Jenvey ITBs, t3/t04, Ford HPX MAF

2000 F250 Crew 4x4 7.3 PSD, Full Force 180cc/30% Injectors, PHP Chip, FRx, HPx, AFE Intake, Hutchmod, TransGo kit, 4" Lift, 35" Toyo M/Ts


#5 Conedodger

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 03:16 PM

My point was that I know I can run without the CHT. My example refers to that. Sorry I seem to be continuously misunderstood here...

#6 madkaw

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 06:10 PM

I agree with these guys that I wouldn't waste time with a CHT . The MS3 with temp sensor and Map daddy and baro correction thru the software and you'll be set. TPS should be used as a secondary load sensing . MAP would be much easier to start with
Steve,
9/71 240z. 2.4 -.40 over, balanced. E-88 Bigger SS valves, stage 2, 6x2 header, true dual exhaust. BW t-5 , STI LSD 3.90- Megasquirt 3 , N42 intake , 60mm TB , 270cc injectors

#7 jacky4566

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 06:33 AM

If you want CHT, Westach has a variety of Under Sparkplug Ring Type and Thread In Type Thermocouples. 

 

But really CHT is best used for Off-road, Diesel, Marine and small engines which can have cooling problems. 



#8 Conedodger

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 09:43 AM

Air cooled engines use CHT as well. Thanks for the help. I think I have a picture of which way I want to go.

#9 Chickenman

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 11:21 AM

Air cooled engines use CHT as well. Thanks for the help. I think I have a picture of which way I want to go.

 

That's because they have no Coolant to measure temperature with. I think we may have a terminology confusion here. I believe you mean a Coolant Temperature Sensor for the ECU. That's the normal GM part you mention. And the 280Z CTS is located in the Thermostat Housing.

 

You can use a 280Z lower thermostat housing and order the 12mm x 1.5 from GM.  It will screw into the stock location for the Nissan CTS.  The 280Z lower stat  is rather hideous though and several of the threaded bungs won't be used.

 

I'm switching mine out for an early 240Z lower stat  housing PN 11061-P0300 ( still available new from Nissan ) . ECU CTS sensor will go on the side where the threaded fitting is for the water inlet nipple. However you do have to do a modification. You have to TIG weld an extension bung onto the side. There is not enough clearance between the Thermostat and the probe on the sensor. So you have to space the sensor out about 1/2". 

 

I believe that DIY only carries the 3/8 NPT GM CTS sensor, which is a bit bulky.

 

Here is a picture of the later style 12mm x 1.5 GM CTS. I would recommend ordering a genuine Delphi or GM part as I've found many of the aftermarket brands ( Standard, Wells, BW ) have considerable variance from the GM resistance specifications. Delphi or original GM sensors may cost a bit more, but they are dead nuts on accuracy wise. The GM part number is 12608814. Delphi is TS10076 

 

31yDO50fWlL.jpg


Edited by Chickenman, 21 March 2017 - 11:24 AM.


#10 Conedodger

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 05:54 PM

Thanks!

#11 Conedodger

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 09:44 AM

Any idea where I can purchase the extension bung to TIG weld?

#12 madkaw

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 10:39 AM

On my P79 head I was considering drilling into coolant passage between 5&6 and tapping it for the sensor
Steve,
9/71 240z. 2.4 -.40 over, balanced. E-88 Bigger SS valves, stage 2, 6x2 header, true dual exhaust. BW t-5 , STI LSD 3.90- Megasquirt 3 , N42 intake , 60mm TB , 270cc injectors

#13 Conedodger

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 12:23 PM

Any idea where I can purchase the extension bung to TIG weld?


I am able to find 3/8" NPT bungs easily. Not so much 12mm...

#14 Chickenman

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 03:01 PM

I am able to find 3/8" NPT bungs easily. Not so much 12mm...

 

As a matter of fact I have some aluminium bungs coming from E-Bay. You will have to re-tap, but at under $4 a piece that should be no issue. I'll look up the links and get back to you. You'll also have to trim them to length in a Lathe... but again. No big deal.

 

I ordered a couple of different sizes as thye were so cheap and I can use them for other things. 

 

Edit: Here's the 1/8 NPT bungs. Resize and Tap to 12mm x 1.5

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/300780558748

 

Here's the 1/4" NPT bungs. Resize and Tap to 12mm x 1.5

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/300758706938

 

s-l500.jpg


Edited by Chickenman, 23 March 2017 - 03:07 PM.


#15 Chickenman

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 03:08 PM

^ Slow boat from China... but the shipping is free. At least to Canada it is....



#16 Conedodger

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 03:46 PM

Oh cool!

#17 Conedodger

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 02:59 PM

Why are you installing a CHT? It's not really necessary unless you are expecting crazy high head temperatures. Just keep the coolant under control.
 
If you are expecting big barometric pressure changes, especially on a high strung NA, then yes i would recommend a second sensor for baro correction. The map daddy upgrade is easy to install but just about any 5v sensor will work. 
 
What manifold are you using? My personal suggestion would be to go with a MAF. Bosch HFM5 are great sensors. This will compensate for Baro and IAT and should work better in high lift cam scenarios where you don't have very good idle vaccum.


I like your suggestion to use the Bosch HFM 5 MAF. I spent today trying to buy one. Autozone and ORielly's were no help because if you can't tell them what car it's off of, they can't "replace" it. They have no concept of using a part like this on a Datsun Z as they never came with it. Summit was better. They made a valiant effort to find one. But they also don't really go by HFM5.
Any idea what cars they were used on? My wife's BMW seems to have one that looks suspiciously like it, but she gave me stink eye when I tried to find the part number...

#18 Chickenman

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 09:38 PM

Pretty sure a lot of VW and Audi have what you are looking for. Late 1990's to mid 2000 model years. Golf with a VR6 comes with a 3" MAF housing. VW/Audi 1.8T are a 2.75" housing. 1.8T guys upgrade to the VR6 MAF housing and Guys pull 400+ HP out of them no problem.

 

Audi/VW 1.8Turbo = 2.75 OD / 2.5" ID 

 

Audi TT 225/Audi S3/ VW Golf & Jetta VR6 OBD-II = 3" Outer diameter / 2.75" Inner Diameter

 

S4 MAF = 3.25" outer diameter / 3" inner Diameter

 

 

Edit: You can find the housings at the JY or E-Bay. The MAF's tend to last forever, unless the PO used a K&N style and over oiled it. 


Edited by Chickenman, 03 April 2017 - 09:46 PM.


#19 Chickenman

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 09:53 PM

You may want to check this out:

 

https://www.ecstunin...Intake/Sensors/



#20 Conedodger

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Posted 04 April 2017 - 05:01 PM

Yes, I have to get over to the pick and pull. The I.D. On my throttle body is 60mm. So I need a housing that will match up either nose to nose with the housing, or be adaptable with silicone tubing. Otherwise, my youngest it at Columbia in New York in a design program and we discussed him designing a housing and 3D printing it.
I love the suggestion to use the Bosch HFM5. Three sensors in one. MAF, IAT, and barometric pressure. Add a MAP sensor and a TPS along with coolant temp and I should be good to go.

Now if I could get Dave Rebello to advise me on the injectors I'd be almost there... what have you guys with 3.0 liter motors done? Dave usually gets back to me within a week when I ask emailed questions. It's only been a couple of days so...





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