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fram oil filter failure


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#21 Brett6485

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 07:04 PM

Good point on Amsoil, I change my oil twice a year or every ten thousand miles, filter changes every 5k. It works out to be cheaper than doing mobil 1 every 3k by a nice bit and I trust it far better.
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#22 Careless

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 11:16 PM

Royal Purple 10W30 (non XPR/RP51), and WIX (Napa Gold) or Purolator Pure1 filters are and will be all I use on my Z31.

I ALWAYS advise people against using FRAM or Quake State filters.
I try to tell them to get Napa Gold filters, but do they listen? no.

WHY?

#1 Excuse: "It's too far for the nearest napa".

8 km is SOOOOO far for something that will prevent engine damage. Yet they fail to realize that if the engine goes, it will be the one thing stopping them from going to Wal-Mart or Canadian Tire to purchase that self-destructing FRAM.




Anyways... Stony, hate to see this stuff. I think you've probably been through more bull-crap with your engine than anyone else has on their entire car in most cases. Not to mention your chassis fiasco too.

Hang in there man. It will be worth it, and if you quit now... a lot of us will realize we're under a security blanket called "support" and "inspiration", and it can fly away at any one time!

#23 Careless

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 11:17 PM

The filter bypass would have done nothing for the engine except what already happened. It would have saved the filter, but a proper filter may have prevented the engine damage if the bypass was eliminated. It's a common deletion when building an engine IMO.


Can you elaborate on this?

None of the 3 books I've read indicate or show any way/reason to do so.

#24 Careless

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 11:33 PM

which the K&N oil filter number compared to a fram PH3682 (RB26 size from RBmotoring.com) would be this filter...if anyone could verify that would be perfect

http://www.knfilters...px?Prod=HP-2008


the R33 filter number is AY100-NS007

I read that KA24 filters and VG30DET filters are the same. I cannot verify. I will take a stab in the dark and say that the body and innards are the same except for the number of pleats in the filter element, causing the R33 filter to possibly flow as much or more than the VG engine counterpart.

I hope that helps somewhat in your search.

#25 mattyice

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 04:40 AM

the R33 filter number is AY100-NS007

I read that KA24 filters and VG30DET filters are the same. I cannot verify. I will take a stab in the dark and say that the body and innards are the same except for the number of pleats in the filter element, causing the R33 filter to possibly flow as much or more than the VG engine counterpart.

I hope that helps somewhat in your search.


yes that does help actually thank you :mrgreen:
71 240Z with RB26 Swap and build underway...completion for July 4th 2008

Rust bucket -> Purple bullet

#26 HowlerMonkey

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 05:02 AM

The filter bypass would have done nothing for the engine except what already happened. It would have saved the filter, but a proper filter may have prevented the engine damage if the bypass was eliminated. It's a common deletion when building an engine IMO.



The filter bypass would have kept the filter from falling apart when the particles from the failed bearing replacement clogged the filter causing a huge overpressure.........unless he had the filter bypass in the car......which is designed for this exact purpose.

#27 cheftrd

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 06:40 AM

The filter bypass would have kept the filter from falling apart when the particles from the failed bearing replacement clogged the filter causing a huge overpressure.........unless he had the filter bypass in the car......which is designed for this exact purpose.


I don't think it was bearing doodoo that caused the filter to fail in this case. I've seen engines in terrible shape with tons of junk in the pan, and the filter was still flowing like a champ. Most likely what happened here is the filter self destructed and sent part of itself into the #1 pin, clogging the oil feed.

With a bypass in place, you wouldn't realize it if you had a clogged filter (unless parts of it destroyed a bearing), and all the junk from your oil pan goes through the bypass and ruins the rest of the engine. All the engine builders I've takled to plug filter bypasses built into the engine. Many engines don't even have a filter bypass. I like 100% of the oil going through the filter, all the time. A low pressure warning light will tell you in the very, very rare event that a filter should clog. That and the filter will explode!

Anyway, run a good filter and you won't need to worry about it. :)
Matt Hutchens
MJR Performance
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#28 HowlerMonkey

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 09:14 AM

With a bypass in place, the filter would not have collapsed and sent the particles that caused the restriction that caused the collapse into the engine.

While it is possible, I have been using that exact filter and fram filters on my nissans for over 20 years and never seen a failed fram filter since I started in 1979.

#29 mattyice

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 09:44 AM

this is a nissan motor of a different kind though, the RB26 with the Tomei pump has a much higher increased pressure and flow rate over a standard nissan, with a built motor like stony's proper filtration and flow through the filter play a huge role in it...the bypass would only of caused more problems then good in this case i feel

moral of the story like everyone is trying to say is that fram filters (besides their race filters) have no place being in a ultra high performance high modified engine, and i think thats something we can all agree on
71 240Z with RB26 Swap and build underway...completion for July 4th 2008

Rust bucket -> Purple bullet

#30 Careless

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 09:58 AM

I guess when you have no bypass, a high pressure oil pump for an RB (which, lets be honest... costs $1000+).... buying one of those 250 dollar Tru-Filters with the wire mesh screen and drainable housing really make sense, no?

#31 stony

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 10:43 AM

I don't think it was bearing doodoo that caused the filter to fail in this case. I've seen engines in terrible shape with tons of junk in the pan, and the filter was still flowing like a champ. Most likely what happened here is the filter self destructed and sent part of itself into the #1 pin, clogging the oil feed.

With a bypass in place, you wouldn't realize it if you had a clogged filter (unless parts of it destroyed a bearing), and all the junk from your oil pan goes through the bypass and ruins the rest of the engine. All the engine builders I've takled to plug filter bypasses built into the engine. Many engines don't even have a filter bypass. I like 100% of the oil going through the filter, all the time. A low pressure warning light will tell you in the very, very rare event that a filter should clog. That and the filter will explode!

Anyway, run a good filter and you won't need to worry about it. :)


I would agree this is the most likely scenerio that happened.... For the record before anyone starts Why did you sheap out on a filter crap... it wasnt that at all. To tell you the truth i wasnt aware that were such crap filters on the market. This is not going to turn into a pissing match about what filter i should have used. Closed end of story... DONT USE FRAM!!! I'm going to sticky this so people can read the info on the filters. thanks for all the advice guys.

5.3 truck motor, BTR stage 2 cam, BWs480, custom intercooler, AEM Infinity, 2 speed powerglide, Fully built Ford 8.8, 4:56 gears/spool, 4 link suspension.


#32 dr_hunt

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 12:11 PM

Can you elaborate on this?

None of the 3 books I've read indicate or show any way/reason to do so.



If the filter plugs as was the case for stony the filter bypass opens and you have the same crap now running throught your engine. Had the filter bypass been blocked and he had a good filter, likely the crap would not have entered the engine.

I never ever run a filter bypass on any motor I build. I want a supply of clean oil going through the engine.
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I think I have just the right amount of excessive HP!! But I guess there is always room for more!

#33 cheftrd

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Posted 05 May 2008 - 07:45 AM

OK. This is pretty recent. To start off, I can't say the failure is 100% the filters fault... Sometimes you have customers that just go beyond the limits of common sense. This is a simple case of not listening to what the builder (with 20 years of engine and car building experience) is telling you. When you drop a 500hp SR20 into a Mazda Miata that came with a 1.6 liter, 120hp engine, there are going to be a few quid pro quo's. One area I take great care in is very detailed instructions to owners of cars like this on exactly what you can and can not do with the car.

Relavent to this discussion:

#1. The cooling capacity of this system is about 300 sustained hp. It's a Miata. It has limited frontal area and therefore, limited airflow to the radiator, etc... On the "high power" setting, this is a short-burst system. Quarter mile drag race is fine, but it needs to cool down between bursts.

#2. Don't use the orange filter from the base service station. Although I've never had a problem with them, there's just too much stuff floating around out there to completely discard.

Car comes in with a low idle and not-so-good idle vacuum... What happened?

"Well, I know you said not to do it, but there was this pack of bikes on the express way and we battled for about 15 to 20 miles. It got real hot and started spewing coolant, so I eased off."

Anylisis: Hot head makes for great detonation and burned pistons. I thought that was the end of it. However, tear down revealed that a piece of the plastic bypass valve in the orange filter (that's right) went into the oil galley post-filter and clogged the galley to the head. You can imagine the damage without my having to elaborate. I say it might not be 100% the filters fault because I can't even imagine what the oil temp was to make the plastic brittle enough to break off. A friends shop did the tear down and will do the rebuild and any further maintenance on the car. This was the last straw. If you don't give any credence to what I'm telling you about your car, I don't want to work on it. Although in retrospect, it could also be said to be my fault for building it in the first place, knowing the customers character and what not...

Here's an excerpt from one of out conversations:

Him: Dude I need more power.
Me: Why?
Him: These guys I know with GT-R's are beating me.
Me: You drive a Miata.
Him: Yea, but I gotta beat those guys.
Me: Get a different car.
Him: I like the Miata.
Me: It's gonna' cost a lot of money to do something like that.
Him: Then you'll do it...

Me = Sucka

Anyway, that's the Fram filter horror story.

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Matt Hutchens
MJR Performance
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#34 Careless

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 05:36 AM

Those customers are easy pickins'.

even if you don't want to do that sorta stuff... if they ask for it... :hs:

#35 Careless

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 05:37 AM

If the filter plugs as was the case for stony the filter bypass opens and you have the same crap now running throught your engine. Had the filter bypass been blocked and he had a good filter, likely the crap would not have entered the engine.

I never ever run a filter bypass on any motor I build. I want a supply of clean oil going through the engine.


i'll look into how to block it on an RB, but what should i be looking for? :hs:

#36 cheftrd

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Posted 07 May 2008 - 04:01 PM

i'll look into how to block it on an RB, but what should i be looking for? :hs:



Most oil filters (including the FRAM) have a built-in bypass, so the point is actually pretty moot... This is the reason I say the filter didn't collapse due to debris from the bearing; it's impossible. To be fair to Fram, they do have a metal inner liner, where many of the past problems people had were because of the plastic liner.
Matt Hutchens
MJR Performance
Japan

#37 HowlerMonkey

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Posted 09 May 2008 - 05:35 AM

http://www.fram.com/...mDisclaimer.pdf

I know it's harsh but it's there in writing and the fact that they don't offer a filter for that application in the high performance catalog means it's best to buy another brand.

#38 PanzerAce

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Posted 09 May 2008 - 06:08 PM

I'm going to give a big +1 to AMSOIL. I got my Z in january, with the last oil change having been ten thousand miles ago, right after the PO installed the Rebello....six YEARS ago. The oil didn't even look like it needed to be changed when I replaced it.

fwiw, I'm running an AMSOIL dual filter bypass system.
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#39 m4xwellmurd3r

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Posted 10 May 2008 - 05:52 AM

Yeah, I refuse to put a fram filter on my Z (the regular kind that is) but I would trust an HP1 filter. my dad has run that type on his racing VW for...i don't know...ever since he built the thing. so it should be coming close to 8 years now. Never had a single problem with them. BUT I think I'll go with Napa Gold/Wix from now on ^_^

After spending time looking at the situation rationally, I decided that owning a fuel burning engine that has a rated life of about 3 miles would be a stupid move. So this afternoon I sent my pal a check for $1350.

signature?
you mean you want my signature? what are ya, identity thieves? jk.
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#40 stony

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Posted 12 June 2008 - 01:17 PM

read that KA24 filters and VG30DET filters are the same. I cannot verify. I will take a stab in the dark and say that the body and innards are the same except for the number of pleats in the filter element, causing the R33 filter to possibly flow as much or more than the VG engine counterpart.


Hey I just happened to stumble across this info. I plugged the Part# of the filter i have in the schmucks search engine and came up with these oil filters.

Look thru the list... which one would you buy???

http://www.partsamer...Type=1&PTSet=A#

5.3 truck motor, BTR stage 2 cam, BWs480, custom intercooler, AEM Infinity, 2 speed powerglide, Fully built Ford 8.8, 4:56 gears/spool, 4 link suspension.





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