Daeron
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Posts posted by Daeron
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to be honest, I was apparently grossly under-estimating your ambition and your confidence in your ingenuity.. Thats a very short way of trying to say a whole lot
I'll forget about the turbo point; why I hadn't had that beaten into my head at all yet is beyond me, it was mentioned above already. your points about any TBI system are taken and acknowledged.
The entire 16 valve versus DOHC question was basically wondering whether the additional CAM used most commonly to operate the extra pair of valves, or if it went hand in hand with the additional valves themselves. Basically, I was pointing out a nuance in the 4 valve/cylinder field, and asking if you had a clue whether it mattered which side an engine was on.
Don't underestimate the possibility of finding a GOOD TBI unit to install a pair of in place of SU carburetors on a stock manifold for an older engine, though! I agree completely with you regarding the rather feculent nature of the chevy TBI system, but I think VERY broadly outside the box on a number of things... I've given a world of thought to slapping a pair of the TBIs from my subaru onto one of my uncles roadsters and trying to make it work. With two runners per body, it would only take two injector drivers to run a hack-job at semi-sequential injection. There are only two possibilities regarding firing order: the first is, either of a pair will take turns, and if "carb" A is for cyl 1-2 and B is for 3-4, then you will always get a 2-4-1-3 order (ABAB; ) OR, they are synched, and you will always get a 2-4-3-1 (ABBA, essentially AABB) order. BUT.. like I said, you appear to consider tuned-port of reasonable importance.... so I will stop the
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Being the long-winded guy that I am, I REALLY appreciate it when someone points out the usefulness of my (sometimes pedantic) semantics. When someone talks to much, they usually have an empty skull. The individual who's skull isn't empty, often feels he is wasting words in over-explaining.
Thanks also for the better definition in the "void" I was groping through.
Subjects like English and History (you know, book-subjects) should be taught via internet forum. "It takes a village..." It couldn't be much worse than the results from the modern public schools in far too many cases, and anyone showing potential for real learning could be singled out and taught by people with PhDs.
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dunno, but the only tool it takes is a dremel, a few buffing wheels, and some compound.. the wheels could be purchased singly at home depot, or as part of a kit. polishing kits are cheap; at least, simple little polishing kits like the bare minimum you would need to get a valve cover done. It isn't anything like as serious or detailed as polishing a combustion chamber. I cant give yo specifics on what type of wheels to use, but they would be cloth.. one of these days, my brothers and I are going to get around to making a little bit of money off of polishing and selling some of the plethora of valve covers we have in the garage O parts.
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Naps Z's did come with efi on atleast 3 models. If it were a decent engine they would not have scrapped it for the better KA.
Were any of them tuned port injection? which cars?
Sean:
I was not aware of what you said about 4 valve engines. Was the data such that multi-valve engines, or multi-CAM engines were incriminating, or can you not reliably tell the difference? Eh, moot point.
The reason I brought up the 210 was not to suggest dropping an engine straight out of one of them into a Z, rather to suggest looking long and hard at how that engine was built (rod, stroke, bore lengths, compression ratios, even combustion chamber and piston shape if you can get it) and possibly build an L6, or an L4 to match that as close as possible, yet still retain enough POTENTIAL power for use when needed; as mentioned regarding motorcycles, power IS a safety feature once in a while.
Don't overlook the possibility of building an engine that makes more power than you ever plan on using: thats the potential beauty of turbocharging. Build a WEAK engine, and when you push the throttle down so far, suddenly it wakes up.. there HAS to be a way to delay turbo kick-in relative to throttle location.. wouldn't that simply be a crazy-strong wastegate spring?
Now is as good a time as any to throw in this mantra: highest MPG for any given engine is achieved when cruising at or around the torque peak. Horsepower being a function of torque, an engine that gets quickly (~2200-2500 RPM) to 100-120 ft-lbs and stays right about there will be PLENTY fast by the time its wrapped up to 6K, if you feel like it.
If memory serves, the HF CRX engine made a max of like, 85 horsepower... and about 105 ft-lbs of torque. The torque peaked at 2200 RPM.
If you seem to want to nix the 4 valve idea, then I am very prone to say find a NAPS-Z engine or an L20B and play with it. The L-series should be easy to find a weber manifold and get some ITB setups for, if nothing else.. if I am not mistaken most of the time when someone weberized a NAPS-Z engine they used a downdraft; that is the only reason I suggested TBI.
I wouldn't knock it (TBI) about so badly for economy purposes though... Perched on top of a hot engine or exhaust, once the fuel is sprayed by the injector at twentysomething PSI into air moving at ridiculous speeds, pooling isn't SO horrible. Don't forget that ALOT of I-4s are crossflow heads, so the intake charge is kept alot cooler.
My old TBI subaru is capable of some respectable mileage numbers (1.8 boxer, OHC, tiny ports and manifold, 91 hp/108 ft-lb., up to almost 40 mpg reliably reported and beyond that reported with room for doubt) and I bet the firechicken's problem was the fact that it was a lunky, smog-era V8 more than the fact that it was just an "electronic carburetor" feeding it. My point is, the 5.0 TBI they put on the SBC (at least as it was found in my buddy's camaro) in the 80s is not a slow system, or a fast system... I've always considered it to be somewhat, half-fast.
Now, one last point.. what I mentioned about best MPG at torque peak should also influence your selection of transmissions/gearing. This, in my mind, is the best argument for sticking with an L-series or other nissan box.. much knowledge is had about them, much variety is available.* (If you do an L20B, then you can build the engine, stick it into your car as is with the tranny and rear end you have, dyno tune it, and FIND exactly where you want to put the gears, and THEN shop around for your gearbox of choice.
*AND, speaking of variety.. you could even theoretically DOWNsize the rear diff on this car to an R160, if you wanted to keep your eyes peeled for an older gen subaru with an LSD. The added traction from an LSD, plus the lighter and smaller rear axle... I am picturing a "no hole shots!" sticker on the horn button.
I have A LOT to say about this, because I have thought about it all a great deal and my family has discussed it as well. Honestly, the best hypermiler might just be turbo-diesel! If not an LD28, then what about a volkswagen?
Anyway, my point was not to remind myself of ANOTHER point to bring up, it was to apologize for my continual, long, rambling posts... but there is SO MUCH to discuss and I do so love typing my words for you all to read.Edit-- Irony is typing all that, reviewing it, adding a point or two, apologizing for its length, and then hitting a button that says "Quick Reply."
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ah, my bad... TBH, in my eyes that somewhat blurry photo WAS "polished" compared to the stock black finish... Its polished enough that its easier to picture than when the thing is black. I am betting its far more polished than it looks in the photo, too.. but yes, I suppose I meant "bare aluminum."
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that indicates further problems in the distributor, not vapor lock. Don't imagine you have problems and then spend money on pretty parts to "fix" them; that wastes money, time, effort, and makes you (and anyone you know) consider the car a money pit.
Problems do not (usually) cause pother problems in wholly unrelated areas to HAPPEN... it may bring attention to other issues (for instance, i fixed my timing belt alignment on one head of my subaru, apparently it was a tooth off, I had no idea.. the idle is so much smoother now, even though it was OK in the first place.. BUT, now it is apparent that I have a vacuum leak under load that I wasnt previously aware of.) but my point is, keep your attention focused on the problem area until you are certain that the problem is elsewhere. Does the timing advance on your dizzy function right? is your spark good and strong? (blue colored, not yellow) Does your shaft wobble at all? where did you check spark, coming out of the coil, or coming off the tip of a spark plug? did you really shoot the timing with a light, sitting there under the tree, or did you just say the timing was fine because the timing was fine before the car died?
Your distributor broke. The piece that broke is fortunately, an easily replaced "wear" part, but the piece that broke off fell into the distributor. To me, I would say that warrants running tests for any mechanical failure of the distributor possible. Get an FSM, and start reading now. If you read through all the procedures twice before you actually do them, it makes the work go faster.
good luck.
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heres a retouch I did in ten minutes in MSPaint:
and heres the original version of the photo, found a few posts above:
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same way you fly over a 20 mph speed hump at forty mph.. Polar Moment of Inertia. If you noticed, she was having immense difficulty with the clutch.. her car was bouncing as it hit that wall. Bound plus rebound plus interruption by a sharp blow from some standing stone.. equals rollover. I am going 40, take foot off the gas when i hit the speedbump, and immediately reapply as my front wheels are hitting the peak. bound, rebound, accelerate to bound once more rather than bounce.
All drivers should read chassis engineering books; learning how your suspension works is learning how to drive.
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unlikely... especially if the car didn't FAIL because of vapor lock in the first place. It failed because the tab broke off. how is this non-tech?
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this probably sounds silly, but I have never seen a turbo valve cover just polished before. Its BEAUTIFUL.
Maybe paint the "background" of the field within the rectangle red, paint the "background" of the upraised emboss that says Nissan blue, and leave the rest (letter surfaces and ridge/entire rest of cover) polished?
Stop trying to tempt me over to the dark side!!!!!!! I'll jump across when I am good and ready, and nothing is happening in the next few months any way!
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Clicky for a link to the Item Description of a 65 piece socket set, branded Pittsburgh Professional which seems certainly better than the "non-pro" label stuff. The price is $34 plus tax, on sale at my local store right now. This set is metrics only, the price was the same for a standard set. Each set comes in three plastic cases, 1/4", 3/8", and 1/2", three ratchets, a breaker bar in the 1/2 inch set, extensions in all sets, a 1/4" finger ratchet and nut driver handle....
Its a GREAT buy for a set of tools to leave in the car, or for someone on a super-budget needing a second set of tools at home/work/school. For thirty-six bucks with tax, I have a more inclusive socket set than I could get from home depot, or sears, for $130... considering the fact that I virtually NEVER use standards. The 1/2" set goes up to 28mm sockets, the two smaller sets include shallow and deep well sockets... Just click the link.
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okay, now, more pertinent to the discussion at hand, I would say that the most likely option is going to be 240SX engine and trans. I would call an older 200SX engine and trans the BEST option; possibly an early 80s pickup truck and 2wd trans. (unless you WANT 4wd??
)Why?
NAPS-Z engine, if you find a way to fuel inject it, WILL be your ultimate mileage nissan four banger.
Has nobody else here ever had a friend who saw their Z-car and told them about the PHENOMENAL mileage that they got out of this little old datsun 200sx that had a four cylinder, but eight spark plugs????
If all else fails, take a carbureted manifold for the engine, chop the intake flange off, machine it for injector bungs, and find another car's intake manifold to weld to it for a throttle body. Or use the downdraft carb manifold with a TBI injector throttle body from something.
Now, the KA... youve got DOHC, 4 valves per cylinder. thats mighty nice. They ARE all over the place with fivespeed transmissions bolted onto them. There IS a useable stock fuel injection system on it already, and even if you don't use that, or don't use it forever, having all those bits already made for that car could be seen as helping the project immensely, as far as "simplicity factor." I do not know what parts are available to increasing the VE, but with 4 valves it should be easier. I personally might even look into redesigning the internals somewhat (are there any other cranks for that motor? hmm...) but building the engine from a bare block up for this purpose would naturally be IDEAL. I REALLY like what ZR8ED brought up regarding the specifics that went into his engine build.
The VG30 SOHC is also widely available, and everything that could be said about the KA (except 4v heads) can be said about it.. but I wonder if the extra displacement is needed. De-stroker VG anyone?? To me, if it comes down to these two, the VG/KA question should be settled by close examination of available internals and manifolds to build your "ideal" VE longblock.
Personally, I suspect that VERY mildly turbocharging and fuel injecting an old L-series 1800 or 2 liter might even be better.. For that matter, leaving it NA and setting up a mikuni manifold with the Accurate Injection ITB kit might not be that bad either... After all, how many people get up to 30 mpg with our six cylinders??? Again, I think of the old 210s at 35 mpg in the 70s on craptachi carburetors. (Hitachi SU's are the exception to the craptachi carburetor rule)
To me, pulling an engine out of another make (unless the trans comes with it) is too much of a stretch... I suppose I have a certain Nissan brand loyalty that is far from universal here, but I just can't consider engines from other vehicles. There is something of a knowledge void there as well. Anyhow, your choices are varied, and it really depends on what you can, and are willing to do that is not "stock" to an engine for this project....
Can you FI a carb'ed motor?
Can you mix and match the trans?
Can you rebuild the whole motor?
Nissan gave us everything from 3.3 to 4.11 gearing for the rear pumpkin, so thats a given. You COULD use a truck transmission and find a rear diff to make it work. You need to examine the transmissions available for each engine, and decide how much you want that to impact the engine choice.. and then decide how crazy you are willing to go with the engine itself to make it work how you want it.
Just dont overlook the old L and Z series nissans... they made 35-40 mpg on carburetors, what can they do with real engine control?
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I typed alot of this up, and I realized I had used lots of capital letters and exclamation points. I'm not being argumentative in the slightest.. but I had coincidentally thought at great length about this matter last night while I was working, and so I had alot to say; John's point was just a great stepping off point for me to bring it up. The caps and !!!!s are only intended to elucidate my position a wee bit more, and attempt to type with a bit of a voice, if you catch my drift.. so I came up here and typed out a clarification at the outset, that this is NOT ranting in the slightest. I FULLY appreciate the complete definition of the term "driving for performance" and respect my masters in that regard.
You've never driven on a race track at 10/10ths for 45 minutes. Get your competition license and do a Spec Racer Ford rental at the next local SCCA event or rent a shifter kart and run a 30 minute heat race.Nor was I able to achieve anywhere NEAR the best fuel economy!! I HAVE driven 10/10ths for minute long autocross courses, so I DO have a taste of what the difference is between street and track.. not to mention that I honestly concentrate on driving as much or more than anyone in a family of racers (they've told me that when riding with me behind the wheel) so, just to make it clear, I am not completely BSing on dropping the term "performance driving" around. (just a smidge of the BS)
The point I had intended to make (I actually realized this might get missed last night while I was at work) was that the aggressive, get-there mentality involved in PUSHING the car is FUN, and a natural instinct for any predator-type critter (ie, humans.) It is instant gratification from utmost concentration. Certainly, racecar driving requires a massive amount of control and discipline!! Its not SHEER instant gratification, because if you drive like that, you get more acquainted with walls then you do with turns. It IS a matter of instant gratification nevertheless.
Driving for economy's sake, on the other hand, is slow, pedestrian, takes longer to achieve a goal that you know could potentially be achieved quicker.. I am leaving lack of "fun" out of its list of detriments but we all know its there.. In the long run, driving for economy is about Delayed gratification: paying less at the pump/saving the whales/having a blue sky instead of a brown one (how can anybody cope with living in LA? sorry) All of the benefits of economical driving take time and investment to show up.
Generally speaking, it is much more difficult, and requires more self-discipline, and self control, to delay gratification.
THAT is the sense in which I meant economy driving takes more effort than driving for performance. Because, the fact of the matter is, PERFECT FLAT throttle control, keeping it RIGHT on the edge of stoich (slightly lean) and responding to every dip and bump and curve in the road, is hard as hell even in South Florida! My ground is FLAT! NO horizon, so one might think that super-economy was possible, because all I need to deal with is turns, and a few short bridges and canals. (the canal banks are, as a rule, about 10-15 feet higher than ambient elevation.. most of which is somewhere from 10-40 feet above mean sea level. Twenty miles from the shore.) In reality, all that my "super-economy" driving should take is me functioning as a constant human cruise control, but thats INCREDIBLY hard to do, both functionally and mentally.
Now, at the same time, I know that even driving at the ragged edge of performance is also a balancing act with economy driving, too.. so is Pizza delivering, at $4/gallon in the town where I work. Seriously, this neighborhood has the most self-centered and ignorant, unskilled drivers in a tri-county area where that problem is rampant... so I am always pushing towards the front of various packs of slow-dogs, dealing with jerks who want to fly past me, etc..... all the while, trying to save gas, yet still get my pizza there in time to make decent cash. (side note: this job sucks. Bad. summertime is going to be a season of change for me.) I am about the exact opposite of a race driver when at work: trying to save gas, yet still get there before EVERYONE else at ALL costs. My point is, I DO understand that racers are often racing to get there before everyone else at all costs, yet still trying to save gas.
Whew!!! I didn't mean to turn into a preacher like that, so I am sorry. Now, back to reading the rest of the thread!
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adding a 90 degree bend would just hurt the airflow into the engine anyhow. One thing you COULD do, I suppose (someone else please support me or shoot me down on this one) would be to machine the flange of the stock intake manifold at a slight angle to raise the log of the plenum up a bit from the stock position. There wouldn't be much of an angle you could machine before reaching a limit of "wise-ness," so you couldn't change a whole lot by way of hood clearance.. but it might work/be worth it?
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I hate to whine... so I am not going to. I already have two different complete 1975 wiring schematics, so it can't be THAT big of a deal, but.......
a LOT of the differences between the 75 and 76 model years were covered in the Body Electrical chapter.. which is sadly unavailable to the fine gentlman that managed to obtain the rest of it for us. Vacuum routing information and other things I know are different (although I havent taken the time to actually look at any of that compared to my 76 manual) but the BE chapter is really the keystone.
I HATE to say this, because I don't want to complain at ALL!!! My reaction is still purely one of
<---thisand not
<---this but I had to let anyone else know that there *is* a wee disappointment in that one missing chapter, AND that they can contact me and I will email them the pdfs. I haven't confirmed it to match my 75 in any particular way, but I trusted the sources from which I got them, AND they match. One appears to be a straight FSM scan, and the other looks like an ALLDATA sheet. The "ALLDATA" is clearer, and the FSM one is kinda grainy, but they agree with each other as deeply as I have examined them.Xenon, if you would like me to email you these two files to add to the ZIP as an appendix, I'd be more than happy to.. just lemme know and I will email the address in the README file. Off the top of my head, 5, 10 megs maybe?
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hey, you didn't lose your keys, did you?
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I hadn't thought of the dowel pins.. (if you hadn't noticed, I was in the midst of a six hour long, "ugh, nothing to do hybridZ binge" when I posted that.) My primary thought was the concept of the two pieces warping relative to each other over TIME, from heat cycling the engine, and a gap showing up between the two side, up in the section where there was no weld... but I see now that the dowel pins would likely put a stop to that as well.
I see your point on the molding idea, too.. it is just SO hard to think that it wouldn't be worth it. Most of the inspiration for that remark was the fact that this thread has averaged about 1 request for production per 10 other posts
Lastly, I didn't want to denigrate ANY other people who had contributed to your manifold (least of all yourself) but it seemed to me like nobody tooted OTM's horn for him, and it only seemed right. When I first read his comment, my reaction was that I had thought a similar thing... but the stretch that wasn't made until the final redesign was recognizing exactly what 3 dimensional shape the "generators" had to take inside a closed system, to stabilize flow. Methinks "flow stabilisers" would be a better all around term for that type of structure, as the ones in your box obviously negated a vortex that had already been created (perhaps by inducing one of an opposite swirl?) yet the ones on a roofline, in an open aerodynamic system, whip the air away from the vortex created by the vehicle and into a separate vortex entirely...
Anyhow, in closing...
I still don't have anything better to say than just, "wow." And maybe cry a little.
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wow! I never thought it would look so COOL to see those flames at zero MPH as opposed to the, say, 120+ I am used to seeing em at on the track! No "candle in the wind" effect.. cool!
Thanks!
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If you go with SUs as throttle bodies, what will you be doing with the TBs you had prepped for this manifold? I have plenty of NA 280ZX TBs I can work with, and the junkyard is full of nissan throttle bodies... but since you already had these dressed for use in this position.... Personally, the appeal *I* find in this design is the ingenuity and differentiation. The concept of going "sleeper," with gutted carbs amuses me, but it doesn't feel like what *I* want, yanno?
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I just re-read this entire thread from cover to cover, and I realized something.
Olderthanme was the first person to mention the concept of "vortex generators" being used to even and straighten the flow, and it was flatly turned down (I will not mention by whom out of manners, I am not trying to talk down about that person.) In the end, the "honeycomb" effect that was noticed on the air intake at the Air Museum, and integrated and ultimately tweaked into nearly perfect airflow balance, seems to me to be just that: vortex generators, air straighteners, a comb. A honeycomb. When we think of VGs on the roof of a car they appear very different, because thats open atmospheric airflow, but for something like an intake tract simple plates suffice, instead of the "dolphin dorsal fin" shape of roofline aero VGs.
So, I wanted to point out OTM as the one who initially came up with the REAL "silver bullet" in this design. It seems to me, at least, that the baffle plates are somewhat unique to this plenum design (at least in the Z world.) Once they had been tuned to lengths appropriate for each plate, the effect seen in the CFD diagrams was phenomenal. One question I had (and its probably not worth bringing up) is this: Once you weld the piece together around the perimeter, what is to stop the diffuser plates from moving relative to each other? Not only alignment-wise, but also through warping, any relative movement of these would starting buggering that beautiful laminar flow all to hell.
Overall, my impressions of the entire thread are thus:
In retrospect, the entire design seems so mind-blisteringly obvious!
Jeff, I realize that you in NO way wish to make a profit off of this, but have you considered simply letting someone pop a mold off of it before you weld it together, and then selling the mold?????
and finally, I just wish I had contributed more substance and less clog.
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another thing to point out is that many, if not most OE fuel injection systems cut injector output entirely at zero throttle. Take your foot off the gas, and no fuel is being injected whatsoever. (below a certain RPM, usually around 4 grand) In other words, if you see a red light ahead that you know will be green soon enough, and let off the gas 1/4 mile away and AVOID hitting the brake, approaching the red light at 20 mph as it turns green, you are using the least possible amount of gas.
It IS amazing how much more effort it takes to drive for efficiency than it does for power/performance. I deliver pizzas in a town on the outskirts of our baby metropolis down here, and and 3/4 of my delivery area is a large, essentially rural area. I have up to 12 miles one way that I can drive into that turf, and more than once I have forgotten to get gasoline as I was leaving the store. 20 miles later, when I am still 5-8 miles out, I realize that I am in dire straits, and once or twice I HAVE actually run out of gas.. but three or four times I've made this mistake and just cut the radio, and ignored everything else but driving with as steady and light a throttle foot as possible. Believe me, it feels almost like I am in a fighter plane over enemy territory with a fuel leak, because it is MORTIFYING to call work and have them send someone with a gallon in a can to me.
IMHO, CRX HF is the BEST car to tinker with for ecomodding. The shape of the car is already SO close to ideal, that with minor work making a boat-tail on the back, and cleaning up a few body lines, you can easily get up over 50mpg as you already mentioned. Installing an engine and EMS specifically designed for economy? Well, Honda already did that, but its GOTTA be able to be improved upon.
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That was why JeffP limited himself to simply extrude honing it and smoothing it out a bit. It was recognised it would be the necking point on his system, and is really restricting his output right now. He's only making 600Hp, so if you are shooting for more than that, to be sure the stock manifold will probably really prove to be an impediment.
ohhh, shutup.
any time anyone quotes a piece of widely accepted lore that jeffp's car refutes, you chime in.... you dont HAVE to do it dripping with sarcasm...
(just to make it abundantly clear, this entire post is tongue-in-cheek because I always forget he is running the stock piece there. For the record, I would KILL to see what simply swapping say, Monzter's ITB plenum for the stocker would do for numbers. Naturally the tune would likely need to be changed, but you get my point)
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why has no one else thought about getting a 4x4 truck front axle and using two motors connected to 4.11 gears and 13 inch tires??????
add a small diesel generator and you have an AWD, electric Z with battery power and diesel generation a-la modern locomotives...
i LIKE this idea!! I had no idea it could be done so simply in a Z. For some reason most of the other conversions I have seen seemed far more complex. I suspect I may have been exposed primarily to AC conversions.
This would make a GREAT car to deliver pizza in
now.
<---this
<---this but I had to let anyone else know that there *is* a wee disappointment in that one missing chapter, AND that they can contact me and I will email them the pdfs. I haven't confirmed it to match my 75 in any particular way, but I trusted the sources from which I got them, AND they match. One appears to be a straight FSM scan, and the other looks like an ALLDATA sheet. The "ALLDATA" is clearer, and the FSM one is kinda grainy, but they agree with each other as deeply as I have examined them.
Junk yard adventure
in Non Tech Board
Posted
Well, it runs into limitations when you reach a shaft diameter above 1/8"