Tony D
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Posts posted by Tony D
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If filing ring gaps up to size was such an uncommon procedure, the "Ring End Gap Filing Tool" would never have been invented. Look in Summit Racing, it's there for a reason!
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Nissan Rings usually didn't have this problem.
American Manufactured rings UNIVERSALLY needed filing out of the package to fit ANYTHING..
The reason your old rings had a big gap is RINGS WEAR in these engines, NOT the bore! It was designed and engineered for you to, at service interval, be able to use stock replacement parts for as long a possible. Do not overbore the cylinder. You deglazed them, did you get an actual measurement on the bore afterwards. Deglazing does NOT require oversize rings, and 0.010" oversize rings is a bad idea. Don't do it.
You are obsessing on all the trees around you, and can't find the forest. The specs you gave are for all intents and purposes identical. People will tell you your ring gap is SAFE LARGE. Obviously if you ran at 0.80mm gap, then running new rings with good tension at that range would give similar results. TENSION against the wall for a given bore is what you are interested in, and the GAP is for thermal expansion. The top two rings are what is important. There are people who have run without the third ring...but let's not go there.
If you run a tight gap on your first two rings, be prepared for a rebore eventually. Not enough clearance will have the ring ends touch, then continue expanding against the wall where scoring eventually occurs...or ring breakage. I would NOT say it's best to run near minimum spec, ESPECIALLY in an engine which may be used for competition or run hard. The heat will cause more expansion and binding will occur.
Think of this using some common sense: how long did it take your current engine to go from .25 to .80mm gap? Now, you are fretting about gaps that are midrange. So what are we talking here, 100,000 miles to get to replacement point again? Or 200,000? I'd shoot for midrange if not upper end of all the gap clearances. Wider is better. You make them tight, you can ruin the engine. Make them big, and your gaps get big as the rings wear over the course of the next 200,000 miles.
Is that really going to be a problem for you?
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Hell, nobody mentioned crank scrapers yet...
TimZ I'm not following the LD query... The citing of my "making light" of the big bugaboo harmonic (and EVERY TIME I've mentioned it) has been within the well-known engineering context of critical speeds...which has gleaned supporting comments in the past from many others. To wit: a harmonic or critical speed in ANY rotating machinery is worked around in a few simple ways:
1) Operate BELOW the critical speed (VW... Most engine manufacturers)
2) accelerate THROUGH the critical to the generally broad band in between the first and second critical and operate there (High Performance L-Engines)
3) Add devices to dampen nodes to compensate for longevity (Sulzer Container Ships operating in the hundreds of rpms, with 45' crankshafts and harmonic pulsations that change web deflection on the crank throws!)
The key to any harmonic issue is a simple one: DON'T DWELL AT THAT SPEED RANGE!
Setting up a car to dwell at 7,300,~7,500 for several seconds a lap is just asking for trouble. Some would say its downright stupid setup.
I pooh-pooh the harmonic because I comprehend this simple fact, and have enough cognitive and reasoning ability to accelerate THROUGH any bugaboo areas so that it NEVER causes me any concern. Ever. It becomes, in this context, a non-issue, something for bench racers and theoreticians to obsess over in the interwebs chat forums.
I accelerate through the area quickly, and am not so stupid as to not avail myself of any longevity-increasing devices on the market.
I have NEVER said not to run a harmonic damper. I HAVE, however said it was stupid to run with a solid pulley if you are going through or anywhere near the areas where problems can be produced.<EDIT> The dampner will wear out if 'worked' by dwelling in the rpm range... something has to wear when you do it, dampner or crank. Really the way the tuning goes you just have to be "close" to affect the dampning effect. If you are cognizant of the fact you don't DWELL in or near the problem speed areas, it really doesn't matter as the dampner will mask the stuff well enough in most applications that it doesn't do damage. Our first Bonneville Engine had a power peak, with Webers of 7,500 rpms. Stupid. The dampner was CONSTANTLY working loose, fretting, wearing out. Changed induction to ITB's and ran at 8,000+ for four years with a dampner and nut that was removed inspected and reinstalled for the next four years. With the Webers, we had to retorque the bolt, with loctite, every weekend. holding at 7,500 for a minute straight rattled things loose and the dampner insert was HOT after a run. HOT HOT. The guy running the LD Crank (I think) is Burton Brown... Then again, he may just be running an offset ground stroker like Dave does from time to time (and more often of late it seems...) He was shifting well before 7,500 in his Bonneville Record Run. Don't know what's on the snout of his engine, but I'm betting coming out of Dave, it's not an aluminum underdrive pulley setup. That's why you machine the new pulley for the alternator...
Watch, now someone will draw a conclusion that Webers wear out your harmonic dampner.
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Most of you guys should never go to a Police or Tow Yard Impound Auction, really, this stuff happens ALL the time!
I've walked away so I didn't have to watch a 73 911 with Fuchs Alloys (left rear hit) go for $1,000. Immaculate black paint, tan leather interior, and a current spec 3.2 FI engine with five speed fitted in it. Yeah, it was a hard hit, but any of the single parts on the car was worth what it sold for at impound.
The list goes on...
Having disposable income, the time to attend those auctions, and the space to put them... Is a VERY dangerous combination!
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You suck.
Hahahaha "that thought that first comes to mind: blind jealousy and the gut reaction!"
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Yep, that's kinda my point. If someone is looking for something to. Drop something into (like an LS...) and ants a shines bright "Crow Car"... There ya have it!
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Dude, I'm asking myself that exact same question right now. I got to make a payment to someone for goods and it has turned into a nightmare trying to find a DHL office to overnight a paper check... I'm overseas and don't have any access to my bank and transferring funds from one to another is just not easy to do in the USA with non-merchant accounts. I would LOVE to just PayPal the money because I can do it off my credit card, then pay the CC from the four different accountsI have the money segregated into in the USA!
Unless you have boots on the ground, I'm always leery about deposits electronically...
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"I should also add that you need to be careful when applying American V8 tech to these engines. Mass produced Chevy's and Ford's are different animals compared to a long inline 6 cylinder with much different design principles.
Use your V8 knowledge at your own risk with these engines. Some areas it applies, some it does not."
Amen, brother, that goes for ANY other engine!
As for taking things out of context from prior posts of mine...like your observations on the VW engines YOU cited (my citation was countering your bad observation and post)...don't put words in my mouth as to what I said, or draw conclusions on the entire engine package that I have NEVER STATED DETAILS UPON SAVE VERY SKETCHY ONES AT BEST!
Your ability to draw the wrong conclusion out of clearly stated things I HAVE said, though...is astounding.
You go ahead and piss as high on the fence post as you desire. There is engineering and thought involved in this, and you're not going to dumb it down to generalities.
And cross posting from other makes, marques, and impressions as a driver is really just background noise.
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How much to get one to that point cosmetically?
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Remember the lawyers when shops refuse to do things...
Plus, if you are selling things, you have money, and the state makes targets places where recovery of money is probable...
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Scorphage!
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Really with stock injector placement position, you are not really "needing" staged injection until you are over 50# injectors, and that's some serious horsepower.
Over 60# injectors JeffP's turbo engine started getting the idle issues people complain about (low PW at idle... etc...) The stock turbo injectors will give excellent idle, and more than enough fuel flow to run the HP you are shooting for. I think they are around 24#, the N/A's are around 17-19# something like that.
They will be narrow shot as well...
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Don't make me the bad guy for instructing you on your poor skills on observation.
One of the key reasons VW's used Aluminum Pulleys was they are easily machineable, and racers could make them UNDERSIZED to save horsepower during drag racing. (Underdrive Pulleys well before the current crop...)
The fan on the VW soaks up power huge...
That is the point on VW engines, not that they are solid.
The POINT on VW's is they were a 4,000 rpm engine. Therefore running solid pulleys.
And that when you REALLY started turning over 5,000 to prevent flexure breakage, you DID ADD A DAMPNER. (Look Up the function of "Berg Equalizer" in your supposed searches before you get mad and someone who actually knows what is going on in a mis-cited reference...)
http://www.geneberg.com/cat.php?cPath=7_222
EDUCATION, not mere observation is the key. Don't be so resistant to learning, listen to someone when they tell you that your idea is fooked. Because that's how you learn.
Gene Berg was big on education... Look at his catalog page, what the design of the part was drive by, what their testing revealed, how it saves you money in the long run and what it does. Education of the customer, key to Berg's success... And another guy that shut you down on the phone and hung up if you didn't have invoice numbers to prove you deserved his support. Some would call that being a " ******* arrogant ******* " today as well.
Read the link carefully.... It goes OPPOSITE of what you THOUGHT was an impetus for choosing it. This is engineering, it's not rocket science, but it does require thought and some of it is more than mere intuition...
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hot rod VW's use aluminum pulleys across the board.... jut say'in
You are SORELY MISINFORMED ON THAT POINT! Taking the absolutely wrong thing away from what you're seeing there, no depth of knowledge on what/why and drawing a conclusion.... Bad form!
Universally the REAL Hot VW Racers (guys running long term engines, and not tear them down and replace the crank after 25 runs drag cars) run HEAVIER THAN STOCK pulleys. In fact, The Berg Equalizer Pulley weighed in about 8-10# as I recall, and was INSTRUMENTAL in keeping flex in the VW cranks from being an issue in breakage. As usual, others copied him.
But if you think those "lightweight aluminum pulleys used across the board" are ACTUALLY LIGHTER in either total mass, accelerated mass with relative MOI, or in ANY WAY are anything but a place to mount your degree wheel with the special glue they sell....YOU'RE HIGH! Go weigh the STAMPED SHEETMETAL STOCK VW pulley and weigh any of the cast or Billet Pulleys out there. I can tell you which one weighs more.... And it ain't stock! Those aluminium wheels were there for one thing: you can put a degree wheel on them and set total advance with a static timing light, and have them machined to fit a 'Sand Seal' -- they don't fly apart at 10,500 rpms like the stock non-oven brazed cooling fans and Sheeetmetal Stock Pulleys do, either (at least if you get a GOOD one, and not some cheaply-cast Taiwan Knock-Off...)
And WEIGHT on the back end of a VW engine is what was needed. They didn't (counterweight) balance them stock as they were limited to 4000rpms, when you wing them to 9,500 you start breaking things--hell, in fact if you wing them to 5,000-5,500 you WILL break the #3 Cylinder Mounting Boss in the case and pound out your mains to the point where you can't hold oil pressure at idle no matter HOW big an oil pump you stick on it! And cranks be another one of them. Using a VW Engine with a 12" long crankshaft as a basis for what you will stick on the end of an almost 30" long crankshaft borders on the criminally .... uh.... maybe it even crosses the line into blatantly, criminally misinformed misdrawn conclusion mongering!
Just Sayin': THINK about what you're saying. That was a damn ill-thought out statement to make in both function, form, and fact. It's unsupportable, and factually wrong in the case of VW's. Coffey can talk to his business partner and get the scoop on P-Cars, but I figure it will go along these same lines.
75,000+ miles on a 175 HP VW Flat Four, Berg Equalizer, 12# Flywheel, no center main pound out, no oil pressure problems, no oil leaks from a flexing center main joint on an AS41 Case here talking back about this VW "Universal" application.... Dude, you are so wrong on that. SO wrong!
A BoxerSix and a Flat Four got crank legnths about HALF the legnth of the L-6. Think!
<I edited this to temper my original comments to something less confrontational.>
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Mid Night Club is still Extant, and Daikoku Futo is busy every Saturday Night. Wait till after midnight for the big boys to come out and play. Haneda Wangan Yokohama end up is the starting point. Always has been always will be!
I doubt that anything was 'the fastest' as that changed with technology, and continues to do so. It's easier today to go 180mph in an S30 than it was then.
And most definitely so in a Z32.
We are talking about a Manga Vehicle, and the Movie that rose up around it. Was it a real S30? Conjecture as you will.
As to this:
I mean i wanna know if it really did run an L28 twin turbo single cam pumping out more that 600hp at the wheels. NO ONE had done it yet. not with a single cam head and minkiu carbs.ive seen a L28 3.1 liter troker with the rare OS Giken twin cam head push 550hp but never seen a carburettored single cam 28 stroker push past 450hp.
I call bullshit. I watched a triple Mikuni, Twin Turbo L-Engine in a white S30 at RS Okinawa do it in 1988 on their Bosch Eddy Current Dyno. Sat there and watched them draw the nomograph and correct DOWN the HP based on ambient conditions. They got 'the yellow sticker'... Same as the one I have for my 75. My STOCK engine with 44's ran 350 HP EASILY and has been at that level since 1985 (I believe the KW was in the 250-275 range depending on boost run.) There was one 444Kw car on Okinawa 84-89 that had Mikunis on it and everybody said the number 'was from first run five years ago to trick people'... 500HP + was what you had if you worked the head with a cam. Price of entry was 450HP minimum to be considered someone with a 'modified' car. Otherwise you were merely bolting stuff on to a stocker, and that didn't really count.
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The aluminum pulley does nothing for dampening vibration, ask the BMW 6-Cylinder Guys chucking lightweight pulleys through their hoods about lightweight crank pulleys...
ATI or BHJ...
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It's what keeps drivability engineers employed for the OEM's.
Break down the base code for the EFI systems, and you will see the basic map is VERY simple (it's why MS1 was so nice...)
ALL the complexities come in partial throttle transient response.
Once you get to a certain level, the ease at which a staged injection comes into play starts making sense.
If this is going on a 300 HP engine, the amount of fuel, and injector placement will be totally different than one for 750HP.
Ask Jeff P about tuning 72# injectors in the stock location...
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I think I may only torque to 55-57ft lbs to be safe since Tony's comments above saying lubrication aftects the final torque down.
Don't incorrectly torque fasteners attributing it to me! I don't say lubrication affects the torque used, EVERY engineering text and design criteria for a bolted joint says it!
The torque is to give a specific preload to he fastener. An assembly procedure will state "clean, dry threads" or "lubricate with XXX"
Just follow the instructions. If the bolts break, it's because they were over stressed. If you torqued them past their recommended value, that did it. If they were corroded, that did it.
If it was both, THAT did it!
Fact of the matter was you were re-using expendable items (see note above about "burnishing the threads" to see why they are noted as expendable.) Most critical fasteners are specified for one use simply because father dramatic effect of thread burnishing can present. New threads unburnished give repeatable results for which engineers can specify procedures.
Start re-using things and tightening it PROPERLY becomes much more complex!
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Hey Tony,
How do you calculate the new required torque when you use anti-seize? Apparently I have been doing it wrong my whole life if thats the case. Apply anti-seize and torque to spec. Should I just account for 1-5 less ft lbs when torquing it?
Go to the "bolt science" website and take a look...
There is a formula that takes into account lubricant coefficient of friction.
The small change on the lubricant can make a HUGE difference in tensile loading.
Paraphrasing what is at "Bolt Science":
Under head friction is 75% of turning torque, Thread Friction, 15%, and Tensile Stretch 10%. These are rough estimates, but "the pie still has to add to 100%"
Burnish the threads of the bolt and nut, and you get 5% on the threads now, still with 85% under head friction, meaning 15% of the torque is now devoted to tensile elongation. If properly designed joint with a fastener around 75-80% of yield at clamping...what margin is there before that bolt goes plastic and deforms...loosening the joint, leading to fatigue cycling, fretting, failure?
Change lubricant, and you DRASTICALLY affect the thread and under head friction... Drop that under head to only 75% for example, and those threads down to near 2% (like MOLYKOTE likes to do...) and where does that pie equation sit or tensile loading on the bolt? 200%+ increase?
They show the formula there, and give some common lubricant coefficients, so you can recalculate he indicated torque you should shoot for with the new lube.
It's a very good primer on fasteners and joint design. When you go there, be sure to watch their "Junkers Machine" video and see what lock washers really do for you!
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Nice photos, you kept der scheep out of the frame...
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I kinda fear for my L28 since it stock with about 160K miles on it.
Totally justified, it will only hold around 450-475hp with that many miles on it...
At least as an unknown "it ran" junkyard pullout.
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You have transcended into the Yoda-Like Beast who wants to say to those spouting "carbs are easy!"
"Up you should shut, for your ass from a hole in the ground you do not know the difference!"
No engine show Z for 20 G's
in Non Tech Board
Posted
No, I thought we already covered that...