Tony D
-
Posts
9963 -
Joined
-
Last visited
-
Days Won
74
Content Type
Profiles
Forums
Blogs
Events
Gallery
Downloads
Store
Posts posted by Tony D
-
-
I believe the standard 'stroker' pistons are slipper skirted and have a 34mm pin height if the information on the Berg site is representative of the current industry trends. 87, 88, 90.5, 92, and 94mm pistons with a flat top and 34mm pin height and 22mm piston pin (full floater with circlips or teflon buttons.)
I know the CIMA 90.5's are good for 100+ HP a hole and 8500rpms...
Circlips retain the gudgeon pin:
-
Do you see the price difference? Why buy cast for less than $300 a set? Or for that frame of reference: for less than $100 more, why not get the forged items.
Also leaves it open at any time to split the case, slap in a big cam space the barrels and blow 25psi into it while twisting 8000rpms. Especially if you had the forethought to spend the $69.95 for the counterweighted crank that will allow you to go over 5500rpms without pounding the hell out of #3 Crank Web.
There is a reason they dubbed me 'turbotony' back in Michigan. Take a 2liter (1915cc or 2110cc) twist the thing to 8000-8500 rpms with a 7:1 CR and pump 25psi into it sucking through a Holley 650 and see what you get...in a car that weighs 1200# (or a Bus that weighs 2315#. Somewhere around 300-350HP...more or less.)
Anyway, air cooled engines traditionally had forged internals. My Corvair TRW slugs, every VW I ever built. Frankly I was shocked to see cast piston kits being offered these days for sizes other than stock. Oil control is more an issue based on jug wall thickness and going out-of-round when overheated. I never had oil consumption issues with forged pistons in a VW...they warm up pretty quickly compared to water cooled lumps. Stockers are limited to 5500 for the above reasons, but once you put that counterweighted crank in there, even a small set of Kadrons or ICTs, and have the ubiquitous Engle 110 cam in there, you quickly kick yourself if you didn't put that CW crank in there the way they start revving with even slight increases in carburetion. They are like an old 2.8 German Capri with that small carb on there...derestrict that intake and they start whizzing up in the RPM range. Far too easily...
Oh, and there are apparently newer VW Water-Cooled engines that run an 83mm bore... but the pistons are priced accordingly to the water-cooled market.
From Gene Berg.com:
85.5mm forged aluminum Cima pistons. For stock replacement, or use with our counterweighted and stroker cranks. (39.6mm pin height), case 90mm, head 93.8mm. (POTL) RW: 2/2/5. See Note A. approximately 7.3:1. SW 28#
Yes, this is where I learned detonation blows cylinder heads off VW's and that is why they came up with 'case savers'...
Yes, this is where I learned that boost and carburettors work juuuuuust fine if you can live with some quirks...
Yes, this is where I learned that an 18 year old kid with an NIASE Patch and Cert can make decent money working on "Import" Engines in Michigan...
Yes, I blew things up. Thank god the parts were cheap! (And, comparatively still are!)
I'd suggest you look to the Berg set, they are cut/clearanced for counterweighted throws...and aren't the boring 'cylinder' style pistons like stock. Though doing this is pretty easy if you have access to a mill.
I digress....
-
IMO the temperature switches are too high. If you want to run it that hot, get a 24psi cap for the radiator!
-
Find out what they will accept, they have been known to say 'no' if it's something that needs to be manhandled too much to get it on the truck.
-
Mine are forged at 87 mm and it's a '1641' kit...I don't buy the cast kits.
-
So Tony, do you think these designs with the center throttle blade are inferior somehow? why have they mostly fallen to the wayside?
No, they are probably superior, but packaging is difficult as Drax pointed out, if you are not turboing it (even if you are), and it flies in the face of 'me too' marketing. Lot cheaper and easier to sell a large bore throttle body and cheaper to manufacture than a manifold!
-
In the other thread this contention was made:
"but all of the successful turbo efi intakes ive seen have been of log design."
As Drax pointed out above a plenum feeding the runners a non-turbulent airflow seems in theory and computer modeling to produce the best results.
But several olde manifolds (including one from AZ Z-Car) used a log manifold (plenum) with a CENTER THROTTLE PLATE. That is a very different prospect than the 4 bbl manifolds being discussed. The center throttle plate used the plenum for air storage and runner charging. This does not happen in the 4 bbl setup.
Additionally, port injection is good for EMISSIONS. Ideally the further you have the injection point from the back of the valve the more power you will get. F1 engines inject obliquely to the port wall above the throttle butterfly.
The only reason OEM's went to port EFI is emissions, and cold running emissions at that! For performance the record is clear, atomize it right, and give it time to mix and tumble and you will be rewarded.
Issues on the 4bbl setups which would be alleviated with port injection is (if you have a sophisticated enough EFI ECU) to tailor the individual cylinder mixture for the airflow variations which may be present.
-
If you have to ask about the price of an LY head, you can't afford one. Bare, last I saw in Japan, was upwards of $30,000US.
I would likely posit the 5% number comes from a comparo against a comparably prepped non-crossflow FIA L-Head. Engineering-wise, that sounds about right. It doesn't change valve area appreciably, doesn't alter a properly ported L-Head intake valve approach angle much (compared, say to the FIA L-Head).
Both LY and FIA have the most important addition to the L-Engine: adequate cooling flow to the head for high-specific output operation. In reality, that is the largest contributor to their desirability.
You can make the power in a standard L-Head, but keeping it cool under sustained high load is a challenge. Most overcompensate with external bandaids, when infact, it's an internal engine engineering issue to get the engine cooled down properly...
I digress...
-
Why is it stepped? Because in Toyota OEM applications that was a removable part. It allows the same venturis to be transferred from the stock 40PHH to a set of 44phh's that you put on the manifold after you port the head and manifold. Early 18RG and 2TG's used these carbs. I have a few with that removable venturi. Matter of fact, there is a set of them on a VARA 510 that I lent for the cause....
Horns you got sound like standard parts for a 44PHH.
-
Wasn't this asked earlier---with some Danish requirement for using the L24?
Revving of the engine is totally dependent on the camshaft you select. Put an L24 Camshaft in an L28, it runs and revs like an L24, just with more power...
Easiest displacement option to keep regulators and inspectors at bay is the L28 crank in your original block for 2600cc's displacment.
-
87mm is 1641, stock VW bores are 77, 83, and 85.5mm.
Hmmmmm....
Usually two variations are available, those for use with strokes below 78mm, and those meant for strokes longer than 78 mm.
If you could fit an 83mm piston in there...stock VW pistons cast are DIRT cheap---under $100 for a set! Forged probably incrementally more since 'stock class' off road racing drives that business and there are forged pistons out there.
Did I mention 83mm pistons with flat tops are a stock VW piston setup? And they have dished pistons in that same bore size for the Mexican Beetles that ran on crap Pemex gas. The 40HP and 1500CC Type 1's were 83mm stock bore. 85.5mm is stock Type1 1600CC (85.5X69)
Like I said, I've thought about it, just not had the time to do the last bits of checking on the particulars.
-
I am having a very hard time imagining this common part is not avaialble through Nissan---they are all over Japan and still in stock there. This is simply a matter of some phone calls or faxes to get the P/N and ordering them from the local Nissan Dealer. They will come from Japan, but these ARE available.
They are also plastic, as the originals were. Crumbly in the sun plastic, just like the interior on the damn things.
-
Leopard? VG30DE / VG30DET, been done. No worries.
-
What is it with 'Fat old White Dudes'? Much maligned at some websites purportedly about performance, but when you get around real horsepower you always seem to see them hanging around?
Why is that?
That looks like a quad pack close-coupled V871T like they use in work boats. When I went to Harmonay Platform off Sta Barbara the seas were not good, and the only way I made it was by putting plugs and muffs on, going into the engine room and laying against that big quad on the mail boat. Went out like a baby. I love the rhythm of the Detroit 71 Series. It's like a heartbeat, and under a cyclic load riding up and down the waves it put me right to sleep. Good thing, too! They had great chili on Harmony Platform and I ate 6 bowls in anticipation of leaving by chopper. Leaving on the crew/mail boat in 22 foot seas was not on my horizon. The DEDEC kept my Chili Down!
-
Oh, PNP will not fall through, likely you will just have to pay them to haul it off. Usually $40. They only pay money for complete vehicles.
If it's incomplete, you will pay to have it hauled off. Ask me how I know...
"BUY?" If you have a title, you can GIVE it to me, I might come get it with my trailer.
And buddy, that's going to be your only hope!
-
That's funny!
Ok, the next logical question is: Can the standard Nissan connecting rod small end be bored out to fit a VW 22mm gudgeon pin safely? If it can be done, will this be the new "weak link" in the bottom end?
What is the 'standard' setup on the VW'? Would it be a press fit jobbie, a full floater or does it matter?
Someone has not 'read the book'! Reaming the small end for a bushing (thin wall bronze) is no different than a 22mm pin. When you consider most performance applications use a 22mm pin, and they bush the small end for THAT....
Reaming the small end of the rod for a steel-to-pin floater will be easily accomplished. All that remains to discover is pin height and then just how much you can cut off the skirts and under the head to lighten it up (if so inclined)--those Mhale pistons are probably some of the more expensive units out there as well.
Really, for guys looking for CAST pistons, this might be a really good deal as well if the pin heights can be discovered. I know they are listed but don't have the time to pursue it right now.
-
Someone hear has the aforementioned vector set. He made his own gasket through a vendor and retains rights to the vector print since it was close to $1500 to get it set up the way he needed it (basically universal L28). There were other developments using that set of vector points as well. I must remain silent on this point. Sorry.
-
so you missed my post on 87mm VW Forged pistons with rings and 22mm full floater pins for $238 a set of four? Might be worth checking into...
-
The dyno owner, for the record, was NOT happy about me sneaking into the test bay to snap photos with the engine under load...or to take I/R readings on portions of the cooling system we couldn't instrument with RTD's...
-
And has taught me something about the 'stock' exhaust manifold. Hmmmmm.
Wastegate plumbing.....not finished there by the looks of it. Some more R and D?
Oil cooler?
Where does that line go to? Mechanical oil pressure guage?
So many assumptions...
1) The hosese on the dyno are supplied by the DYNO. Those ribbed reinforced hoses you see? Those were brought TO THE DYNO by Jeff and I. They were confiscated by the dyno owner in lieu of some dyno time he liked them so much. There WERE 4 sections like that, but one was absconded with hence our using an outlet hose on the inlet. There is no spring in it, and that indeed is what was needed. DO NOT run a lower radiator hose without an anti-collapse spring in it!!!
2) Wastegate plumbing incomplete? LOOK AGAIN! The downpipe is turned at a 45 degree angle relative to where it would be in the car. The wastegate fits just fine to the clearly visible plugged connector on the downpipe when it's in the car.
3) Oil cooler?
Oil throwoff from the mains and rods was around 100C. Sump temperatures were slightly higher. We were doing cooling systems tests holding the engine at steady state to check for some things. The cooler stayed in the car...for a reason. We learned more without it on the engine that we would have with it on the engine (similar to hooking up the head to the pump inlet and being able to block it off during testing.) BTW, do you need an oil cooler with 220F Oil Sump Temperatures and 170F CHT after running for 5 minutes at 5000rpms steady with XXpsi boost and making a load over 390ft-lbs of torque? 4) It looks like a stock block, doesn't it? Try gettting the conditions in #3 above to happen in a bone-stock F54 Block, or N42 for that matter!
-
Oh, and another observation: Use a lower radiator hose with a spring in it!
Like clockwork, this happened above 4500-5000 rpms!
Jeff was busy, and didn't see my 'DUDE THE HOSE IS FLAT!' gesticulations...
-
At long last more to report. The 'loop the hose when the heater is bypassed' was finally tested today.
Long and short of the testing was that with the back of the head looped straight to the pump inlet (like some do when bypassing the heater core---instead of blocking it off)the following results were obtained using the Nissan CHT as read through the Nissan ECU.
With a 25hp load on the engine running 4500rpms and the hose looped and open, CHT=220F
With a 25hp load on the engine running 4500rpms and the hose BLOCKED CLOSED, CHT=170F
Results obtained on a Superflow 900 series Dyno, with the thermostatic water valve set to maintain 160F water.
The tests were stopped at 4500rpms as the suction hose on the dyno would start collapsing above that point.
This would be similar to stock gearing at 80+ mph or thereabouts. What we wanted to see was how high we could go before the 'open hose' started to rise in temperature, but even with a collapsed hose above 5000rpms we could not get CHT above 170, whereas with the hose open and flowing to the pump inlet (which you think would help prevent the hose collapsing...) the temperature started to rise even more above 4500, so we figured stopping the test there was the best comparison. Results at 3000rpms were almost identical when the engine was 'stabilized' --- that is run in steady-state load for several minutes.
Yes, we were running the engine for several minutes at a time checking load points, etc. Let temperatures stabilize then run to a higher number. So nice not to have to stop and let everything cool down! Mmmmmm, engine dyno! Gaaarrrrggggh!
Later the engine was put through...uh..."More Rigorous Testing" Wallpaper, Anyone?
Look, you can see Jeff almost looking happy!
And the 'clamping device' to stop the flow in the hose.
So much for the commentary earlier in the thread, huh?
-
I haven't checked these out guys, it's been in the back of my head ever since I realized the Z's standard first overbore is the same as the 1641 I have in my old bus.
They come in about 1000 different pin heights as well, to accomodate strokes from the stock 69mm, to over 84mm---meaning to me there should be some combination that should work well with some long-rod long stroke combination.
Due to the aircooled temperatures, they should be high-silicon for lower expansion in the jugs. I've got over 65K miles on my engine without a hiccup, and I have overheated it for one reason or another several times.
They are flat tops, and pretty thick domes. It's not uncommon for guys to shim the bottom of the barrels for deck height, or simply cut the piston tops to make deck height on some setups.
The VW has 87, 88, 90.5, 92, 94mm Jugs and Pistons as pretty standard. They have some smaller ones as well in the stock sizes, but they don't always come in the variety of stroker pin heights, etc... I mean the VW guys use Chevy 5.700" rods! So you want to talk 'cheap performance'? Go check the prices for some really good lightweight 5.700" Chevy Rods...and remember for that $237 you get enough to do TWO complete VW's!
Most of the specs for pin height and that are out there, and the longer stroke kits will have very short skirts with cutouts to clear the counterweights (hell we got to machine the cam to clear the crank counterwieghts on the big stuff!) so they won't look so "industrial"...
Someone wants to look into it further, have at it. I'm busy as hell now, this was just the opportunity to brain fart it out there---you can see the pricing... Might be worth it if pin offset is right, I mean hell---Vega Pistons and XL500 Honda Pistons work, why not VW's? It would be nice to know for sure, because that 69mm crank is the same stroke as the L20A, and putting that in various larger bore engines might work out for a displacement class break proposed at El Mirage...
Parts is Parts!
-
87 mm is a very common VW overbore... I don't know if anybody used them yet, but sets of VW pistons are cheap in comparison to others. So what if you chuck the jugs away? I think you could buy two sets of 87's and have two spares (with rings!) for far less than $800!
Pin Diameter is 22 mm, full floater with retainers.
L24 build questions
in Nissan L6 Forum
Posted
Do the Ross Pistons come with Rings?