Tony D
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Posts posted by Tony D
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Let me pause, Presidentially, and consider the magnetude of the dude contemplating crankification of the torquificisity of the sitchiyation...
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There was a time when the PYPs on Wilmington and Blinn were rife with them. JeffP bought one out of there some years ago and sold it to Europe for $7K! Bought it for $700 off the hook as it came into the south Blinn yard.
Now they get tagged at the auctions, and usually go to 'specialty yards'.
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Using a backpressure regulation scenario, it is the only one where full pump capacity can be delivered to the carbs.
Every other scenario either restricts the flow to the carbs, or dumps capacity before reaching the carbs. Once restricted or dumped, it's never available for the carbs to use.
People who have changed to a backpressure regulation system have been amazed their stockish pumps do well with far more horsepower. When it all is available to the engine (carbs) you don't get much better than that.
For SU's you can "T" the pump to supply round the back and front of the engine to the respective carbs, and run the regulator between them with return back to the tank---similar to the looped stock EFI system (note Nisssan uses Backpressure Regulation for the stock FPR...) You can run them into "T"s or whatever...
But you will notice the fuel pressure remains constant and your fuel pump amperage draw can be used as a direct correlation to fuel flow if you have good datalogging.
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Argh, none are as blind as those who won't see. Two FPR's on the firewall, guys two independent return-styl fuel supply systems one for the carbs, one for the EFI contingent. On a drag engine, which is shut down at the end of the run, fuel percolation is not an issue. Those floats are down, and the fuel going into those bowls leaves them so quick it would make your head spin! The hint is the six additional injectors outside the carb barrels---he's pumping in some heavy fuel. I'd be curious to know the times on that car...
As for a radiator---it's only behind it if it's all the way across top to bottom. How big is the radiator on a 10,000 NHRA top fuel dragster, BTW? In case nobody noticed, the upper radiator hose goes to the right fenderwell---my bet is what you guys are thinking is a 'radiator cap' to the right of the I/C in the photo is actually the fuel cel for one of the fuel systems. I know that's where mine is... A whole 2 gallons worth. Stock tank is full of water for ballast and traction.
Live inside the box, die inside the box. Or not! Daeron, yer slippin' man!
Anybody else notice the lagged and stored independent ignition system to the left in the photo? Or the shape of the plenum on those carbs? Interesting...
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Check CHTS loop at the ECU, and that the fuel pressure is correct.
Let us know what you find.
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I run solution #5 on my FI car. It seems to work fine on the FI. I am about to use the same setup with a low P pump for my Weber car in progress.
I got to thinking that there may be a way to modify the Webers to get some fuel circulation in the bowls; other than the fuel that is coming in to replace the fuel consumed.
You could tap the bottoms caps of each bowl and tie them to a return line regulated by a valve, tied to a vacuum source. At high vacuum, you could "flow" a portion of the bowl fuel back to the tank. At low vaccums you keep the drain-backs shut. It would need to be calibrated with an orifice so as not to outflow the feed + the consumption. Hmmm. A bit complex but a decent solution...IMHO.
Coments as follows:
With an EFI system, and a deadhead like that to the injectors...well "it's your engine do as you please".
On the 'some other method' for Webers, it's been done offroad for years where you remove the floats, epoxy in a wier with fuel cel foam and 'dry sump' the fuel delivery. Gives EXTREMELY consistent fuel levels in VERY ROUGH off-roading environments. But we're not agreeing on fuel pump and regulation placement, so let's not even get into that one!
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In a ZCar.com moment, I will add "no man, that's wasted-spark you're talking about!"
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Niiiiiice!
I wouldn't part with it at all, they will only become more valuable as the time goes by...
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Tony D,
I've never met Elaine- but heard about her. Seems even the Nissan dealers here have a dislike for her.
That's BAD!
North Dakota? We have a former club member (who was posting here) that moved 'back home' to ND. Took his 77 Fairlady Z as well...
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"The early 240s just weren't designed with air conditioning and real hot weather in mind. As long as the car was moving and getting decent airflow across the radiator, the car did okay."
Time for subtle rephrasing:
"The early NORTH AMERICAN MARKET LEFT HAND DRIVE 240s just weren't designed with air conditioning and real hot weather in mind. As long as the car was moving and getting decent airflow across the radiator, the car did okay."
They were severely decontented, with absence of splash pan, Full Radiator Shroud or the higher BTU radiator that was put into the RHD Vehicles that came with A/C from the factory (an in-dash unit, just like the 260's and 280Z's had!) Being that the cars were marketed and sold in Okinawa, it makes Houston feel like Boston in February. The lack of Aerosols there (unlike Houston) will add to thermal layering at radiator height. Instead of monitoring ambient temperature, put some K thermocouples in the radiator air stream, and under the hood (or monitor your ECU for inlet air temperature) --- I think you will be surprised what you find, but from my testing the temps there aren't that much different than ambient. Go to West Texas and NM where the skies are a deep blue (and not light blue/grey) and you will see a marked increase in thermal layer temperature into the radiator.
We ran at Reno LeMons and blistered the race as the leaders for that time... till our harmonic balancer took a dump and the engine burned itself down. And that was a stock junkyard engine, with a junkyard three core radiator, running a Kragen Thermostat for a 1962 Chevrolet Biscayne 327 (160F) and a stock new water pump. I think we had an old 16# cap on there
We didn't get anywhere near overheating, and were running a 3.54 at the time with a four speed. Plans are for a 3.9. With the specific output of a stock Z engine there is plenty of margin for it.---if you are having problems, you're missing something big, or mistuning severely. We consume 11 gallons in 2 hours, and do a driver change, and the heating has never been an issue for Mr. Hanky, or his successor Hanky Too (which inherited his heart from Hanky 1)
This discussion was really revolving around cars putting out at LEAST 2X what your N/A racer is making, and in many cases 3X that amount. Anything below 300HP to the rear wheels should not have any issues using bone stock parts. If you are detonating, it's not from cooling, but likely more misapplication of parts or lack of attention to assembly detail. This stuff will kill you. For sure, below 200HP the stock stuff should have no issues. We run NO fan, and pray there aren't any stops or slows---as long as we are moving at 30mph, the needle doesn't budge. Why no fan? Because it tends to wreck radiators when you hit something, and we figured 'why risk the failure point' --- though for some track testing it gets reinstalled with the full stock Datsun Shroud. Trying to rethink engineers with millions of yen to back them, and hundreds of hours on the dyno to test sometimes is a foolish escapade.
If you are running endurance events differential cooling will hit you as the next failure point after you get the cooling system up to snuff.
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All I will say is that at a point, the sound from the tailipes stops being independent waves, and starts 'warbling' in a very distinctive sound.
My comment on 'valve float' was not related to power production (though directly is could be...) It was more a comment that we shift at 9500, not because of any reason like 'we have to'... The engine will spin higher than that, and to that end, in our testing at the same dyno John C recommended to us in LaHabra, we didn't get the valves to float on a 'how high will it go' run. As side point is none of the rockers are polished like in the valvetrain thread, etc... the cam is MUCH smaller than most people think, but it makes the power. It's not a dry combination of parts, it's how they are worked to work together.
For land speed, knowing your power curve, and how high you can run the engine dictates which tires you bring, and what your attack strategy will be. That engine was making 105hp/liter on under 11:1 compression. I now have a head where we may be able to make 14-15:1 CR, and with a MUCH more agressive cam in both lift and duration. It should allow us to have a peak power point about 92-9500, and our shift points will be accordingly higher. I can only hope the helmet cam catches the 'warble' when we hit that point. The sound is intoxicating. Rebello may make the engines but I don't know anybody on the salt running a Rebello-L there... Maybe those guys in the Red 240Z that went 163 last year. I owe them a dollar! But I want to see the car in person before I pay...
And like JC said, if you limit your thoughts to inside the box, you will get the same results as everybody in the same box. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
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It was so nice to meet Paul and Ron. There are almost no hybridZ guys here in our area. I have only met one other on this forum.
My understanding that ElaineZ from ZC.C is from that neck of the weeds.
Banned on three different forums, I'm glad it never made it here. I would say maybe one day you will meet her, so there are worse things than Braap out there.
Hell, you could have met me, ID is in my territory, but haven't gotten the call to Lucky Friday Mine just yet... That would put two things worse than Braap, but ElaineZ is still worse than me.
Leatherfacedharpiebi....I digress...
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"Lots of people would kill over $1000."
Er...
In some cases, its 'not the money, it's the principle of the thing'...
I heard (?) of a couple of E7's in the Air Service who restricted their entire contingent of working men to base, while they went out on the town in Olangapo and Angeles City PI every night. It went along well until one of the guys in the squadron who just happened to have relatives nearby started telling them he couldn't come see mom and sister because he was restricted to base.
I hear a collection was made, and the grand total was $200. Reportedly, allegedly (and I would have no knowledge of it firsthand at all) it was $10 from everybody on the pre-team. When the local 'toughs' were contacted reportedly their first question was 'who is it you want killed' with the second reported question being 'and were do you want us to dump the body?'
I'm told by sources that after much emphatic cajoling, and coaching on what they were to be told, they agreed to the deed. But they were shocked that they reportedly were being paid that much money only to break some arms. The story goes they said "We break arms only $20!"
That Friday Nite, MSGT E, and MSGT C went into town. Saturday at roll call they were late. Apparently they came in with casts on their arms, and a WHOLE NEW ATTITUDE about this 'restriction to base' thing they had going.
Neat story, wish I could remember who first told it to me. Or some of the names. I forget those details over the years. It was a good story. But I forget so much. It's hell getting old and forgetting details like that.
Boy, I bet those guys had a great time in town after being cooped up on base for two weeks straight working 16 hour days! "A round of San Miguel for my friends, and a game of Smiles, if you will mamasan!" Galing-Galing mo'eko, sip sip m'buto!
LOL
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"Not exactly illegal or immoral..."
Actually, it is immoral.
Illegal? No, Immoral, hell yes!
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I second and third the advice on the plugs, DITCH THE EXOTICS AND USE WHAT THE MANUFACTURER RECOMMENDS AND NOT WHAT THE PARTS COUNTER GUY GETS A BOUNS FOR PUSHING!
A .69 cent plug works the best in these things, the exotic fine-wire crap seems to foul out every time and have misfire problems. Bosch seems worse than most. Simple plain BPRX-ES seem to do just fine. NGK conventional, Bosch Conventional, Denso Conventional... Hell, Splitfire Autolites work fine, and better than most of the fine-wired crap expecially in turbo service.
They mayber fine for a Porsche that was designed around them... but not for the L-Series!
Also, turn off all enrichments. ALL enrichments. Let the car warm to operating no matter how many times you have to start it. Once it's warm, with a basic map it will run well enough to do all the tuning you need to do. Enrichments are the LAST step to fine tuning the engine's response. Have them on while you're tuning, and it will only screw you six ways from sunday.
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The 260 has float bowls of considerably less volume than the 73's. Under hard acceleration the single pump will not keep them at proper fuel level.
A 73's larger bowls will hold level better, but when shut off will cause more of a hot start issue due to the massive fuel they can percolate into the intake tract, and how long it takes to reprime them. A 74 will perc only so much, and will refill to operating level (for idle) much quicker, but will also suck down under WOT much faster due to the smaller bowl volume.
Operation of the 73 and 74 systems is slightly different, they do not operate the same way.
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Back a page ago, solution #3 which was stated 'wouldn't work' is EXACTLY THE BEST WAY TO RUN IT!
I know there is no 'best' but in this case, there IS---the regulation of the fuel pressure regulator is a BACPRESSURE REGULATION SETUP. This will (if you install a fuel filter before the carbs like you should) keep fuel pressure as constant as possible even with a plugging fuel filter and if you are using an EFI pump, will run the pump at the lowest possible amperage, and keep fuel flowing like a madman as it's only pumping to 3.5psi. If the filter plugs, the pump then can compensate and up it's pressure through the operation of the backpressure regulator (which will see a lower pressure at the carburettors and close off to raise it!)
On High-HP cars in japan, this is how they are all run. Up to a given HP. And that level is very low. I'm not even getting into running a surge tank and then feeding fuel from that, but in high-g corners with a stock tank it's a requirement. I have starved cars running stock SU's in hard lefthanders with less than 1/2 tank and two fat guys in the car... Running lean at speed and load is not something you want to do.
If you are seriously considering a fuel system, then ditch the stock rail altogether and plumb it up with adequate sized lines, and if you are worried about heat on track events or even highway blasts up to 2 hours (one fuel tank duration) consider a cooling coil and 1 gallon cool-can. I made one for a vapor-locky 73 (with round tops, BTW) which took a 7# bag of ice. Made it out of a 1 gallon igloo cooler and some coils of copper tubing. This more than cooled the fuel going into the carbs for longer runs down I15 to Vegas, and cured the cars vapor lock issues coming off the highway into stop-n-go. A 7# bag of ice would turn to a gallon of 100-110F water on a 120F day in about two hours. This was with a return line, so yeah you were cooling the entire tank. Anybody who has done dyno tesing on less than 1/4 a tank and had problems keeping AFRs constant will appreciate this hint as well... Easy to make, cheap, and will keep the car cool on the track. It doesn't have to be in the engine bay, but for safety I'd not be putting it in the back where the spare tire went...
IN SHORT: Any system that puts the regulator in between the fuel source and fuel demand point will suffer more fluctiations than one which regulates pressure at point of demand by backpressure requirements.
An example from the petrochemical industry: API672 requires constant oil pressure to the bearings of high speed rotating equipment (duh, huh?). The specified method for this is to place the PRV at point of demand with relief back to sump. Any filter media between the pump and the point of use then, becomes irrelevant with a positive displacement pump of sufficient pressure capability to overcome filtration restriction. I have seen 8 bar oil pump pressure, a drop across filters of 5.3 bar, and SILL have the required 1.7 bar at point of oil injection to the bearings.
Later API specs have placed a secondary relief on the outlet of the pump now, to limit it's output to the pressure rating of any piping carrying the oil to the filter, but the effect is the same---the fluid is deliverd to the point of use with NO fluctuation whatsoever, and the lowest electrical demand possible on the pumping motor. Even if you are using a 15psi pump like a Holley Red, this will allow for PLENTY of filtration blockage and still deliver your 3.5 psi. If you regulate off the pump...and the filter clogs... Eif you regulate after the filter and the return line opens...
But, if you regulate AFTER the carbs in a backpressure retention scenario, the only eventuality which will cause low pressure is a broken fuel line to the front of the car, a plugged filter will have to have 11psi delta to affect fuel pressure to the carbs, and a broken return line will cause no issues except for the fire out back...
Same thing for Fuel Systems.
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Obviously my sarcasam was lost in my post.
People can't see a lot of things. People couldn't see us picking up 40HP and 1000 rpms of useable horsepower running 45ITB's compared to 45mm webers.
Really, what people do you know in the USA that run 50 Mikuinis or 55 DCOE Webers?
They were on the streets back in 1985 in Japan. The class racing rules here in America limit development. The dominant paradigm then becomes what guys racing HERE do for the cars, and not what unfettered development produces.
The development of horsepower in the USA stagnated in the late 70's due to this phenomenon. The turbo years with E-Motive were exciting, but then it all stopped as everybody racing moved on to the VG's.
L Engines were in the 9's in the 80's in Japan. And the development continues. Just like guys running XO Class at Bonneville with Flathead Fords.
Because you can't see it doesn't mean it can't be done. And if you think the rpm limit is only 1500 to 2000 above what most here in the USA run (that 7500 magical stroker limit the internets are all abuzz about everywhere) think again.
My youtube video has us shifting at 9500. That doesn't mean that is where we have to shift. And it's not a terminal limit to our build's upper rpm range.
"We have not yet experienced valve float" is all I'm going to say. If we had a higher lift cam, our powerband would be higher, as would our horsepower.
But for a 10:1 CR engine, I think 105HP per liter is decent...down a bit on horsepower compared to our 2.8...but then again it had 14.75:1 CR. And it had more power on tap if we would have used a more agressive lift cam. There are people on the street running the lift we run.
Oh trust me, there IS power to be had. And if you're building a full on drag engine----LOADS of power to be had. 150-200? Child's play with preparation. Child's play I say!
But not if you live in the American Box. Expand that thought box like someone in the NHRA would, and think of how to apply it to L-Engines. This stuff really isn't rocket science, it's just not thought applicable because it's a big V8, and ours is a small 6... Specific things may not transfer, but theory in practice is universal in most cases!
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Here we go again making terribly flawed comments about a design that is old is somhow inherently flawed because we all know something NEW is automatically better than something old.
NOT TRUE.
I have discussed this with JeffP regarding the possibility of sourcing rebuildable seal/bearing packets for the pumps, and then having LD impellers 5 axis machined out of Stainless Steel. This would give us a pump that is basically 'lifetime'. The cost would be astronomical, but the advantage of 5 axis cuts over raw cast has been proven that you can get more flow simply due to the smoother surface. In some cases, the limitation of the castings is such that you can flow more because five-axist cuts allow for a thinner blade than otherwise possible, giving more physical clearance for the pumped medium to flow.
Other than metallurgical advancements (stainless steel) and more precise machining (five axis versus cast) you will see that water pumps today sold by OEM's are very similar to pumps sold 50 years ago.
You will also notice commercial pumps sold today are very similar to what they were 100 years ago. This stuff is basic engineering. There are no tricks here, you have a VERY versatile pump which millions of yen of development time went into to give best performance under various conditions. If the boys at Electromotive were able to cool a 1000hp turbocharged monster using an unaltered LD28 pump----er.... just exactly where do you think it has shortcomings?
Since I just gave a basic class to some operating engineers and roating equipment folks in Brunei this past Wednesday and Thursday, my brain was scratched back on the basics of impeller design. I tried to 'quote' the photos above, but unfortunately the 1mpbs (advertised) line here at the hotel is not cooperating.
Basically lets look at the two pumps and their differences. The LD pump impeller is larger in overall diameter. The LD pump has a larger center opening (or 'eye'). In centrifugal pump design this points to basic delivery changes. The eye (or impeller) diameter dictates flow---the larger the center of the eye, the more flow the pump will produce. In turbo terms this is referred in some circles as your 'volume tips'---when you get a rub in these areas your capacity goes down though you still normally make natural surge point like the machine did before the rub. Seond, is the pressure tips---or outer diameter. The larger outer diameter dictates more pressure. A rub or clearance in this area will mean lower surge point (earlier cavitation, at a lower pressure inside the pump).
The LD has both a larger eye, and larger outder diameter to the impeller. Meaning it has both more flow, and is capable of producing more pressure under identical conditions as the non-LD pump.
The biggest contributor to any of this is CLEARANCES. If you don't have optimal clearance from the vanes to the pump volute, or casing, your capacites go all to hell. Clay up a pump and check your clearances and you will see they are WELL wide of optimal for best pressure production. They may work at lower pressures and higher volumes, but tightening them slightly (tricky to machine when it's all assembled, eh?) can make for boosted performacne. Build a pump dyno---take a 5HP engine, belt it up to a pump mounted to a front cover, and give yourself some pumping capacity from some old 200L drums. I think you will find the 5HP pump will be a little shy once you start spinning it up there, but by simple experimentation with clearances you will see visible flow characteristic changes and resulting increases in pump horsepower requirements.
You are chasing a red herring here, you are going after parts without understanding how they all work together. The design is sound, how it is presented in a mass marketed package is what needs to be addressed. Again, Electramotive used stock Nissan Pumps, but they did not leave the blocks, heads, theromstat, etc alone. They optimized flow, and ran a belt driven pump. If it cooled their beast, it will cool yours.
Custom impellers? Really with the flat performance curve you will find this impeller design has, you are oging to see it's not required. It's not a high tech design like a turbo impeller. It's a centrifugal pump. Talke a look a gorman rupp, worthington, flowserve, dresser rand, sunstrand, any of the big manufacturers out there. Get into their design engines and compare the impeller design sizes with what they have for commercial offerings. you aren't going to change the world using the stock front cover. You wanna sling a completely independent pump housing off one side of the engine, then you may accomplish something. But working with the stock stuff will be an exercise in futility until you start gaining a grasp of the interplay between the impeller and casing clearances at a minimum. Impeller design IMO was optimized long ago. It's just so many people look for a short-one-shot magic bullet solution rather than sweating the details of proper flow management of fluids through the engine they miss the answer that is there in front of them. The pump is not the problem, guys. It never was.
What those bike kits are giving you is an impeller like what we ALREADY HAVE in the L-Engine to replace cheapo stamped sheetmetal pumps that OEMS like to put out there these days. It's apples and oranges. The bikes have a pump design that is not optimized, our engine does. Look at that impeller in the last link, and compare it to the photos of the LD and stock L engine impellers. Because a Chevy has a bad pump design doesn't mean a Chrysler does as well. Same goes for bikes and Datsuns. Pump clearances can be addressed first, without putting on an impeller that is investment cast (slightly smoother and more precise shaping)---the ultimate pump impeller will be a SS Five-Axis Milled design and you will pay accordingly. But what will you get for that cost? Not much if you don't FIRST address tip clearances. And once you do, ask yourself the question "with all this new pressure and capacity, do I really need to improve further?"
At some point, this becomes a tossers game. Use your head more, and then TEST. Mental gymnastics only work if the mat you fall on isn't covered in broken glass...
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For gawd's sake man! Check your tank for snakes! Black ones in particular.
Theys be very pesky and cause all sort o'trouble when theys commence t'moanin'!
Oh, and BTW:
" I'm connected straight to the battery, and I still see 10.7V when it's making the low sound, so I don't think the voltage is the problem."
I think voltage like that will burn up your pump quicker than you can say 'overamperave from undervoltage' --- these high draw items are designed to run on 13.8 vdc nominal, 14.2 optimal. You run it on 10.7vdc, and you're asking for lifetimes shorter than the gas company employee looking for leaks with a match!
If it's not cabling related, figure out what is wrong that you only get 107V at your pump under load. That is FAR BELOW ACCEPTABLE!
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MMMMM, Rover 44mm HIF equivalents, gaaaaarrrrrrgh!
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Dont get hung on US Mandated emissions equipment. Which is the impetus behind the CHT repositioning to the rear of the head. It reaches tempoerature quicker, putting it on closed loop and enabling emissions components earlier.
It has an added advantage of being slightly more accurate for severe duty use, but Eurospec cars had 20 more HP and their temperature sensor was in the lower thermostat housing just like any other Z... It works fine there, you don't need a CHT.
Now that thermister idea, that might make my VW or Corvair swap a bit nicer since finding those sensors can be a bear. But for a Z it's boar-hog teats---the thermostat housing mounted sensors work fine. And did everywhere in the world. The US is different because of the emissions requirements at the time.
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Valvetrain turning forces soak up far more horsepower than most people think.
The advent of roller cams in domestic V8's isn't to allow more radical camshaft profiles, it's literally giving up 30HP to the wheels which is otherwise wasted internally by the very forces you witnessed!
Imagine how much smoother that cam would turn if you had rolling friction instead of sliding friction...
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I know people who run 0.575" lifts on the street, will those springs work?
The opening part of the runner to the valve bowl seems 'necked down' more than usual. Hard to tell by the photos whether you are imparting a spin into the bowl, or just haven't opened them up equally on each side.
What does the manifold port flow for the one you are using (have you checked flow with the manifold on the head, in other words, to see if you overdid your ports or have to work the manifold?)
Knowing what the manifold does to the head flow numbers lets you make decisions on altering the runner tracts to get something flowing better or more equally.
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Carbureted turbo
in Nissan L6 Forum
Posted
Exactly, that cap may well be where you add the water and ice to the heat sink for the I/C...