Tony D
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Posts posted by Tony D
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It might aid in the cylinder to cylinder consistency, as a general matter of building any higher specific output engine, it only makes sense. But it's not the solution---it helps make everything in a bad combination of parts work a little longer, but the solution is a mechanical redesign, rather than an aftermarket 'band-aid' to cylinders in the back detonating. Note KTM's later blowup where all the cylinders simultaneously seemed to go 'boom' at one time. The consistency ended up having it all happen consistently....in every cylinder instead of the two running marginally hotter. Goes back to cylinder combustion chamber design.
As I said, the FIA and LY heads both have seriously altered coolant flow from the head...really flow equalization than anything else. They have a tendency to catastrophically go 'boom' in all six when something goes bad. But they are running high compression, and running to 9K rpms+!
There are some other things that can be done, but I can't get into them now in public due to some agreements in place.
You mention MN47...that is a detonation resistant chamber simply due to the size promoting the faster burn. People seem to be running higher compression with that head on an L28, than the same head will accept on the L24 it was designed to be on...
When you compare the slight difference in piston diameter, and how it's a problem with one engine and not the other, you start asking questions, right?
There are some secrets out there still, one being the highest horsepower L's out there in the USA used NON-USA HEADS as a starting point for their builds. Similarly to the results that an L24 head on an L28 worked. Don Potter preferred L26 E88 Heads, for instance. Nissan Competition supplied some non-us heads for competitors back in the 80's which have even smaller chambers than the MN47! But it's a 'blank slate' then, and you can shape to promote the best chamber possible without welding and decking the head.
I digress...
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"Someone let me know if I got it right. Basically the way Nissan designed the cooling system in the L-Series motors was a design flaw."
This is a serious overstatement of the situation. The decision was made based on intended usage of the engine. The LY head and FIA heads were designed with high specific output usage. This engine head is NOT in a high specific output application. Characterizing it as a 'design flaw' seriously overstated a marketing decision, as well as a basic engineering decision. The design of the head and it's propensity to detonate is more important than a slighly lower flow of coolant through the last coulpe of cylinders. And that was pretty much state of the art for the day. Remember you are working with EMISSIONS DESIGNED compopnenetry as well. This is US market crap. Don't blame Nissan for compliance with governmental mandates. We are talking about an engine which is easily taking 2X stock horsepower without ANY issues whatsoever. I would consider that pretty darned GOOD designing. Especially when you don't really run into an issue till almost 3X the stock horsepower level! AND AGAIN: We are adding cooling to combat hot runing of a BAD COMBUSTION CHAMBER DESIGN CHOSEN. Spend $2400+ for a reshaped combustion chamber and anotehr $800 for custom pistons to give a fast-burn and I think you will be amaze how much HP you can make on current crap pump gas without needing the extra coolant flow.
"Along with small casting flaws, etc act to work against the cooling system."
Casting flash. This is unavoidable with the casting methods of the day. Everydoby had it, and if people don't properly prepare their components this can have an effect.
"Another part of our issues is with people's cooling systems simply not being up to snuff' for years. Anyway it seems like Nissan never addressed the cooling issue in the cars as the normal Z car sold was never figured to be used heavily or used at all as far as racing or heavy load goes."
Not using the vehicle as intended is not a Nissan Issue. It's the builder's issue. Most people don't properly engineer their vehicles for the application, then blame the OEM afterwards. This appears to be what is being said here. Is it? Then I would say 'no'. Nissan had a cooling system outside the US A that worked. But our cars were decontented and lacked things like splash pans, spoilers for air, etc... Again, governmental or marketing decisions that were uncontrollable by the engineering department.
"Anyway it seems the best possible solution for our cars is to use a higher pressure pump, reverse flow the entire coolant system with slightly better routing?"
If you are looking to make 700+ hp, probably, yes. For Less than that, common preparation and attention to the combustion chamber design is likely to play FAR more dividends with combatting detonation. But at a starting cost of $3000+, nobody wants to do that straight out the gate. So you are left band-aiding everything else to make a misapplied component do something it was never intended to do in the first place. Making a silk purse out of a sows ear, as it were.
"Although overall the best solution(time/money/ease) for us is to use the suggestion that was repeatedly mentioned throughout this thread. Drill and Tap 1/4" NPT holes above cylinders #4, #5, and #6 then using fittings and lines route them into either the lower Thermostat housing, the upper radiator hose, or even directly into the radiator(however you see fit)."
"BEST"? There is no "BEST"! The most practical may be to do that, but really the 'best' solution is to start with a fast-burn head to prevent an issue with 'cooling' under high specific output. If you have a detonation resistant combustion chamber, then the cooling may not even surface as an 'issue'...
"As this basically will allow for better overall flow, smoother flow, and in the event of cavitation which is bound to happen a place to allow the steam pockets that form a place to escape quickly rather than sit and manifest and begin to cause damage."
More that there is no flow inhibition by stronger currents closer to the front of the engine causing flow stagnation. Higher pressure caps will help with the cavitation and thermal layer boiling. The big thing is you have SIMILAR flows through ALL cylinder heads. Equal flow. Same as CC'ing a head, or porting the intake to flow the same.
"Now as Zmanco above is saying about having those tapped could cause less flow to those cylinders, but it seems like having it tapped up in the head really isn't diverting the flow much as the coolant is still making it's way from the bottom to the top. It's just providing more routing for the coolant and to keep it flowing quicker?"
It, as said just above, equalizes flow through the cylinders so they all flow similarly in terms of coolant. This is what you want, not good cooling up front, poorer cooling out back.
"Oh and with these solutions use the correct antifreeze mix with water wetter, or go a step further and use distilled water with the water wetter as it is another helpful tool in keeping temps down. I can't remember what the other type of coolant people were switching to was called or what was special about it. I'd have to go back and read more towards the beginning."
Evans NPG, it's nucleate boiling characterisic is different. It has surfectant properties, and can be run much hotter. In all ANYTHING other that pure water has a POORER heat transfer ability. Water being 1, Evans being .8, 50/50 Glycol being .7, and increasing as the glycol concentration goes down. Remember I said anything above 10% glycol will require refiguring heat transfer rates.
"So guys did I get it right? Did my reading comprehension work? I'm definitely planning on doing the 4-6 bypass to my spare P90 head and have it fully rebuilt. I'm probably going to have to end up pulling my existing head as is..."
You be the judge by the commentary.
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The hand throttle hooked to the throttle pedal. A little 'c' shaped bit of metal was tacked on the side of the pedal to hook the hand throttle ball into (kind of like the hood release lever, but 'not a box')...
Actually the enrichment lever on the SU's did kick the throttles open a bit but the hand throttle could be used to overcome that and open them even more.
It's a holdover from the development of the 165HP Triple Mikuini PHH Carburettor Option that never made it to our shores. They used a 'starter circuit' as well, but did not have a fast idle cam, so having a hand throttle to hold the carbs open further after starting the engine using the starter lever was necessary till the coughing of lean emission-jetted Mikuinis got some heat into them... (Somewhat like the SU's if you open the throttle on mikuinis while cranking the car and engaging the carb starter system, you kill the vacuum to that circuit and render it useless)
Like Paul Harvey says: And now you know...the rest of the story.
Litigious nature of the USA got those hand throttles removed Post Haste!
Same as our 83ZX's got foot on brake to shift the damn Automatic solenoids well before Audi and the Nannystate Mandate that you have to have a device to make you put your foot on the brake before you can shift the car out of park....
Incidentally, the Camry I have as a rental right now has a manual bypass for the foot on brake function. All I need to do to put the car in a gear is press the button (reached with a fingertip when my hand is on the shifter) and shift away! Think the '09 Camry's got that in the North American Market???????
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Europe...strange place.
Interesting they are flying the Red White and Blue next to the Eurotrash "Swedish Hot Rod Association" winged sno-cat (or is it a fire engine)...
Maybe the chef from the muppets was involved and something got lost in the translation?
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Earlier Sprockets are Cast Steel.
Later Sprockets are a sintered metal composition, and are lighter.
GM did this with some parts in the late 70's while I lived in Michigan, we had a GM Engineer come fuming about the gears from our shop not holding up. Shop foreman took the gear, held it in his hand, then dashed it onto the ground. SHATTERED!
Just looked and said "Ain't our gear, we machine from XXX Steel, that's a powdered metal composition gear from somebody else!"
GM guy was shocked. Haven't heard that the Nissan Sintered Metal shatters or anything like that, but the old JDM Crowd tended to hoard the very early gears, and preferred them for 'modification' into adjustable units. They seemed to think they lasted longer and were a more durable item.
Oh, and that offset-pin gear was a made-in-the-USA item. I can't recall the company that made those, but it's constructed out of an earlier cam gear. Not Dial-In-Cam but a similar name. It may be the same company who made the same style offset bushings for Chevy Cam Timing Sets in the 70's and 80's.
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I think you miss the point at what rpm the engine will make the power.
The 350 chevy will make 19hp at off-idle conditions, probably before 1100 rpms.
The Datsun will take that to close to 2000 rpms.
For cruising, the cars will need to be geared to have 19 HP available to propel the car at 65mph.
Hence my statement that 2X the RPM of a Chevy going the same speed is to be expected.
You have agreed with my earlier statement in your Leg-Press Analogy, you just don't realize it yet.
The contention that it takes 2X the power to propel a big american car down the road also plays into the same logic, but it's an incorrect assumption anyway. Most cars only require around 19-30 HP to go 65mph. Weight has VERY LITTLE to do with it in static state conditions. It becomes important in varying conditions such as acceleration and climbing hills, be let's not even go there...
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75 Fairlady Z Automatic, 4.11 Gears, stock L24 with triple 40 Mikuini PHH's & Trust/Greddy Exhaust: 28mpg steady at 65mph from Victorville to Phoenix.
74 260Z, Late 5 Speed, 3.7 Gears, Stock L26 with stock exhaust as low as 19mpg from Oglalla NE to Grand Rapids MI in about 10.5 hours (math skills). Same car running through Wisconsin later in the same trip cracked 27mpg when not exceeding 65mph through the entire state. Averaged 24mpg at highway cruise, and 17 in small cities and gravel roads playing WRC.
75 FairladyZ 2/2, 3.9 gears, early 5 Speed, 2.5" Crush Bent Exhaust, towing an 800# trailer at 3200 freeway rpms got consistent 22mpg. Gets roughly the same mileage when cruising at 3500 rpms on the highway with no trailer. Hard to break below 20 in town. Car dynoed at 147rwhp, turned consistent 15.50's in SanAntonio all day long.
73 240Z, 3.7 gears, late 5 speed, Blowthrough 44 Mikuini Triples combined commuter duty at 17mpg. Personal best (?) mileage: 5mpg...on a track, of course. One that winds through Hacienda Heights, it has since been removed I believe...yeah, track...
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I stand by it, in either case, with either weight, and with either engine, with either car it will take approximately 19HP to propel a car down the road at 65mph.
Where does this occur at on a 350 Chevrolet Engine?
Where does this occur at on a 168CID Datsun L6?
Acceleration will be the prime canidate for consideration of final gearing, and in any of the mentioned cases, none of the normally supplied ratios changed the top speed of the car one whit....but it DID markedly influence the characteristic of how fast it attained those speeds.
"At the 4500 range the engine LOOSES 45HP documented HP to all the driveline and associated frictional losses!"
What document can I reference to read up on this claim?
As for fuel economy, there are so many misconceptions about that it's not funny. The fuel consumption curves are shown in the Nissan Documentation, and if you follow them in your gearing most people find they overgear their car quite a bit and get worse fuel economy than they would if less gear were run and the engine speed was slightly higher.
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Remember the original reason for formation of the organization...
To keep Sicilian women pure during the moorish conquests. A 'protection' racket in the purest sense of the word.
From there, well, how shall I put it?
"They Digressed"
LOL
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Make sure you remember to drink another beer today!
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It is truly FLABERGASTING that members of this forum are just now discovering reverse flow COOLING. This concept is at least 15 years old.
We reverse flowed a 6.6 Trans Am in High School Shop Class in 1980, so 'at least' is kind of an understatement.
Chevrolet realized their coolant flow mistake back in the EARLY 60's when they did more development work on the SBC. It was common knowledge in GM circles back then, and a GMI engineer was who helped us with our Pontiac Reverse Flow Coolant System then...it was 20 years old by THAT point! Monzster has reiterated on several occasions my thoughts on this subject: THERE IS NOTHING NEW, JUST PEOPLE WHO HAVEN'T SEARCHED ENOUGH CROSS PLATFORM DEVELOPMENT. Engineering is engineering, and there is VERY little that hasn't been done well in the past.
We did not 'just discover it', but the internet is a relatively recent development for personal access, and it's just now getting to the point where people have the time to mention crap they did 27 years ago in High School...
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BTW:
Standard offerings for the Z(S) model was a 3.7 gearset with the four speed in the early cars. A five speed came with an early box and a 3.9.
Deluxe versions Z(L) came with more weight, and accoringly were fitted with 4.11 and 4.38 gearsets. A Z(L)2/2 would have a 4.38 gearset, as would a five speed Z(L) Coupe FairladyZ.
The four speed Z(L) would have a 4.11, and a Z(S) would go back to the 3.7.
Only in the barcalolunger driving US of A did we get 3.36's and 3.54.
In Europe, the 3.36 came in the Turbo Cars...for a 260KPH top speed potential with the 200BHP Non-Catalyst Version...
FYI.
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S30's were available in the JDM with ANY ratio from 3.7 to 4.38 STOCK (and in some cases with LSD)
My buddy has a 1975 Fairlady Z with a STOCK 4.11 and a three speed automatic. With an L24, triple mikunis and keeping a steady 65mph that car will get 28mpg driving from Phoenix to LA.
There is no concern for a car turning 4Krpms at 80 mph, or even at any desired cruising speed. The design range for cruise in a Nissan L is anywhere from 3000 to 4000 rpms.
Gear / Tire the car appropriately. If you continually cruise at 80 mph, gear for that rpm range. Lower rpms means sluggish top-gear acceleration compared to a gearset with a lower numeric ratio.
In ANY of these cases the car will STILL be DRAG limited to 125 mph, so gearing to accelerate to 125 the quickest way possible is the 'performance oriented approach'...
There is nothing wrong with the cruise speed you mention. This is not a Chevy V8 we're talking about here, it's an engine HALF the size.
Logically, TWICE the cruise rpms would be EXPECTED!
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At 173, our car is a 'two finger ride' when in the F/GALT configuration (Raked, G-Nosed with blocked rad inlet, Belly Pan, Moons, but no rear spoiler at all)
As for 'criticisim'---'I feel your pain!' LOL I'm always inviting those who think it's that easy to show up and run, the more the merrier.
I especially encourage the 160mph+ stock 240 owners to show up, I need to find out the tricks they are using!
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It can have an effect on the idling quality...but if it was running before and now doesn't I'd concentrate on what changed. If it was the weather, it may be a sensor. As mentioned, cold start and enrichments can be difficult.
I started tuning mine with no enrichments and while it was hard to start the car, once it was warm I could map most everything else, then go back and concentrate on cold start, etc...
Good Luck.
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Absolutely, I regularly took Toyota 18RG and 2TG Solexes and mated them to Tripple manifolds. The most you may have to get is a proper bellcrank for the applicable side of the carby to mate wit hthe tripple bellcranks and etc...
But a fully made up set of 40's for $250... that's a steal. Have him send them down to me in Newcastle/Dora Creek if you don't snag them! LOL (working in the general area...)
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If you have access to them, HIF6 or HIF 8's would be an even better choice...
I thought the Roadsters had 38mm Hitachi SUs? I think they did, I'm almost 100% positive they did.
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"I dont know the Theory, but adding grease or oil cant hurt anything in my opinion, and in my experience It can make the difference of completing the race, or ripping your hair out in the Pit. "
I could throw in an example where Intel got reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally upset when hydrocarbons got into their air system becuase someone used anti-seize on gaskets and traces contaminated the system, resulting in $$$ of cleanup and purge.
I'm with Woldson on this one: Technology has changed in the past 30+ years, and there are different ways to install stuff now. In many cases people simply don't read instructions and take shortcuts, resulting in leaks. Using anecdotal evidence as a basis for genaral instructions across the board is dangerous as well. Some kid reads 'put grease on gaskets to make them seal' and soon you have a kid with a greased head gasket wondering why it blew out at the fire ring...
Generalizations are bad, as a general rule...
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Premium fuel, highest possible octane
A cold thermostat or none at all <<-- Im thinking of removing the core in mine, leaving a "constant open high flow" thermostat.
I'd say flow restrictor at a minimum, but that is for continuous high-rpm usage, for street usage the variable flow capabilities of a thermostat are critical I would not run without one
The easy mods:
Water wetter -- http://www.summitracing.com/parts/RE...5&autoview=sku
Higher pressure radiator cap
Higher pressure cap should not be underestimated, it really helps, but beware of your under-dash hoses and heater core if you go to the extremes...
Octane booster (expensive!)
More advanced:
RD28 water pump with large impeller
LD28 Pump, I don't know if the RD series pump works, but in the #5 cooling thread it discusses the LD Pump, and they are scarce as hens' teeth
Only for the extreme:
Tap into the cyl heads #4 #5 #6 with seperate water lines to increase flow around #5
It is more to increase the flow in the slowest/lowest flowing portion of the head, and goes together with some other modifications, but as a standalone mod can help with lowering the affected combustion chamber cooling temperature...
Reverse flow of the coolant
some might call it extreme, some might call it 'common sense'---who puts the hottest coolant on the hottest part of the heat source? Putting cold water in there would seriously cool the head better, and help with cylinder taper and block warming during startup...as discussed...
If you run hard, and then drop back and see AFR problems, I'd look at fuel pressure/fuel delivery issues first. The heat may be having some effect, but if it ran before and then you see AFR changes that says you got fuel delivery issues which need to be addressed.
It's like a SBC Chevy that runs fine all around town when your dad drives it...but when you lock it in low and do 50, you notice surging over 35mph. Do some checking, find a clogged fuel filter! Fix it, and get a ticket for making those 85mph pulls in second to 'see if there is any other fuel delivery problems inherent in the system'...
A plug being to warm may indeed be an issue, NGK 7's, or 8's should be in there, and for dyno runs and hard pulls for tuning 9's may not be out of the question! Burning a hole in the piston sucks, cold plugs only misfire when they foul. Hot ones do bad things...
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"if you wouldn't give your kids it then why are you making a living off of it"
Yep, Booze, Gambling, and Hooers... all wholesome 'family values' kind of things for legitimate businessmen to engage in...all 'service businesses'...LOL
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Drink more water, 'film eyes' is likely caused by dryness. Could be the dust has dried the eyes, or that your tear production is now affected.
I think the goggles and fan is a good idea...
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My Great uncle Guido was the one Grandpa never talked about.
He was NOT like the 'guidos' above.
If he pointed at you... well let's just say Tony Soprano had to be role modeled after someone. And being associated with the 'dark people' was something respectable insurance salesmen, legitimate businessmen did not wish to happen.
And as for hanging stuffed animals, I tend to recall a lot of people in the USA in the 80's with Stuffed Animals strapped into their cars...
Maybe they needed room, and when you stuck them outside in the rain, strapped them to the exhaust, they shrunk?
Mine are still on the front seat, belted in as always. Mr. Whiskers is my constant companion...
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You don't need a 45 footer to fit 6 z's...
I fit 6 in a 40 ft high cube on the first loading attempt!
For storage at the house, I'm looking into either 45 or 53' HC containers before the code people get all over me. Putting a roof and concrete in between them was not my original plan, but if the county wants ghettoized construction due to pernicious fees... it's what they will get from me!
I'm not in South Africa now, am I?
I have access to Holdens, and have been scouring the auto-trader style pubs like crazy. I am lamenting my frivolous expenditures earlier this year... Opals, Holden Utes...something for the Wire and for Me!
Emigration is a consideration at this point...
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I love the irony of someone on the internet telling someone who is going over 200mph with his current configuration how terrible it is performancewise.
That ranks right up there with the guy telling Andy Flagg and Myself how the SCTA rules were geared so that a Z Car could never be a points Champion at El Mirage (the year our car was on the record book...) I believe I was smiling broadly when I said 'yeah, who is the current points champion now, Andy?' Andy was smiling widely as well when I denied knowing exactly who it was, only saying "I think it's car 220"... That guy was telling us about aerodynamics as well (he was going 155 with a 380CID Chevy in his 280, we were doing 163 with the L28...)
Yep, ya just gotta shake yer head and smile sometimes! LOL
Nice to see the #236 hit over 220. I've met him as well, we discussed his roof chop at the time while waiting in the staging lanes. After all that fabrication discussion, I asked "what about using a 2+2 roof for the added length instead?" You could see the 'eureka moment' in his eyes. Us Z-Car guys need to put our heads together BEFORE a project starts once, just once, so we ALL save ourselves some big headaches! LOL
Maybe I should plan accordingly for once and make it an issue to be in the country during speed week...
I hear they do land speed in Oz...hmmm...
280z gas tank swap into early 240z
in Fuel Delivery
Posted
It's not a reserve tank, it's a vapor/liquid separator. You can run without it, but I have it in most cars, I just convert to 3/8" vent lines from 15mm to keep good easily replaceable hoses back there. Some nylon couplers from 15mm to 10mm is all you need, and no more $100+ molded vent hoses needed!