Tony D
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Posts posted by Tony D
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The blowover issue assumes that the turbo blows from the pipe directly into the plenum like a stock manifold.
HKS and SK turbo plenums for Carbs used a shrouded entry with the plenum being pressurized through openings between cylinders 2&3, as well as 4&5.... in some cases they put a diffuser baffle into the plenum to further interrupt the velocity and turn it into pressure more evenly throughout the box. SK went so far as to shroud the plenum into two compartments using a baffle the entire length of the plenum, allowing air to enter only at the top and bottom of the plenum.
The original HKS Box (Type 1) used a similar setup, letting a prechamber diffuse the incoming air to pressure, then putting it into an upper chamber before letting it blow from the top of the plenum down between the aforementioned cylinders. The key is to diffuse the velocity of the air coming from the tubing entering the plenum into a pressure situation. Normally people 'diffuse' it by expanding the area...dumping into an open plenum. If you instead use a baffle to stop that velocity you see an increased on-boost characteristic (boost seems to come on harder) as opposed to simply letting it diffuse into an open chamber (similar to what happens in the turbo's torus ring around the compressor wheel, velocity slows, pressure builds...)
As for bar-and-plate it is a design that looks similar to the intercoolers sold for years. Those would be considered 'tube and fin' style normally. Bar & plate coolers offer superior heat transfer in a more compact size than conventional tube & fin or shell & tube coolers. Generally the bar and plate coolers have turbulators in the 'bar' portions to maximize air to air heat transfer. Instead of having smaller tubes (think three core radiator) the tube is across the entire thickness of the core with those turbulators in it.
These links should show some of the differences (I hope.)
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I mean, FWIW, you could take the MEGASQUIRT, hook it up to the Z31 Dizzy, and run IGNITION ONLY on MS-S-E.....
I mean, everybody runs them 'fuel only' but there's absolutely no reason you can't use it as a Standalone Ignition System as well. One connector for the Dissy running under the dash, and a couple of lines to the coil...
If you look at that VG EFI intake closely, you could easily take the upper manifold section off, and make a simple adapter out of 1" Aluminum Plate that would bolt down onto the lower manifold section...
Cut it so that there is a 'twist' so every two holes front-to-back support a hole running perpindicular to the cylinder heads, and then simply tap the thing for the appropriate bolt pattern, and install TRIPLE STROMBERGS!
You want a Vintage look? There you have it! Nothing is as Hot Rod Vintage as Triple Strombergs! And they make lookalike bodies now that hide fuel injectors in the 'float bowls' so you could have the vintage look, and EFI benefits as well... Though Megasquirt or other standalone comes into play.
But Triple Strombergs would be too cool!
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Any competent machine shop should be able to make a liner, or simply order one in. Darton Sleeves, LA Sleeve, there is a bunch of people making drop-in sleeves for service repairs.
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Explain how the turbos are not efficiant, I am curious. Again, I dont know much about turbos themselves, as far as ratios etc.
Biggest issue I take with the explanation above is that it is applicable ONLY to a single turbo application.
When you are using TWO ZX Turbos on the same engine that only had one to begin with 'restriction on the exhaust side' ceases to be a factor.
Actually, you have an Exhaust A/R closer to 1.20 with what you have.
I think the JDM .43 A/R exhaust turbines reworked with a slightly larger turbine exhaust exit path, as well as using a slightly better Compressor Wheel (more efficient at 15 psi for example, and provinding much more flow) will net better spool characteristics, as well as better lower rpm performance.
As it sits, you are using only 1500CC's to turn each turbine, and I believe it will be a simple matter to control wastegating on the stock turbo wastegate flappers well up in the HP range.
Interesting the power peak is at 6500. Some cam timing may help on that. You installed adjustable cam sprockets, right?
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Elliott was aerospace related, and used those Adel Wiggins Clamps on their old PAP vertical split compressors. It was 'old home week' for me, as it looked like an overbuilt Bleed-Air Driven Air Cycle Machine from a C10 or other Avionics Cooling Array. I 'appropriate' them whenever I can...what I will use them for is beyond me! I keep them around because they look so cool! LOL
You can see the dilution of various industries as 'other' disciplines start to influence machine designs. IHI (new kid in the marketplace) used a DC Drive Variable Speed setup on their Turbocompressor, with Titanium Impellers and cranking along at 120K...floor footprint was comparable to the old Elliotts. Definately Turbocharger Influenced with those speeds in an industrial application! While Elliot marched straight and steady to look like Cooper Machines (blatant ripoff of the design IMHO) with thick castings and massive iron instead of aluminum tubing, Adel Clamps, etc...
But again...I digress!
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Save some money, chances are all your pistons are good, SLEEVE the offending bore, and have the others honed/deglazed to standard spec and put new rings in and be done with it.
This is why Nissan Showed Liners for the block available...to repair one cylinder to standard instead of following the American Standard of overboring everything and tossing all the pistons at the same time.
Sleeve shouldn't be more than the cost of boring all six, and that saves you the cost of the pistons!
I'm assuming you can feel this when you drag a fingernail over it...
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Ohhh, Adel Wiggins Clamps...
Someone knows proper tubing procedures! LOL
"Long Rants"? WTF... I thought this place was about exchanging the maximum amount of information. What, this is now ZC.C all of a sudden?
Call me sensitive, but "Rant" is a particularly offensive word when dealing with someone taking the time to elocute a position that is a bit more complex than simply a knuckle-dragging 'it ain't makin' no differunse then pullin yer spar tire out and runnin it'
For some, the process of the decision is as much a part as the results. Forgive those of us who revel in the process...
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I saw some crazy big stuff in Japan in the 80's done on N42 Blocks....
Big Bore? Some would use the excuse 'I'm just unshrouding the valves for better flow characteristics!'
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"I would gather that a air to air cooler would also be an area where you develop a lot of turbulance...Again not a turbo guy so I haven't followed up on any improvements sence like the 80's."
That would be why 'bar and plate' I/C's (used in industrial applications for years) have made it into Automotive I/C applications. The problem with using the I/C argument is that it's very far from the point of engine entry in most cases. What may be turbulent there is well relaminated and flowing down the pipe to the T/B again. Once it's flowing smoothly, the idea is to minimize losses at each opportunity.
In industrial applications I can show instances where people saves over 600 horsepower of compressor (meaning a whole compressor system shut down) after going through their system and simply having them repipe using the same undersized piping while at the same time eliminating elbows. In some cases, simply adding a second feeder to point of use cuts piping losses in half (intuitively this is obvious) but instead of paying $1500 for piping on the front end, the design engineer saved that money on the capital outlay, and then ran for 10 years pumping air through an undersized pipe system and costing hundreds of thousands of dollars in electrical bills for YEARS before someone comes in and shows them spending $1500 in pipes will save them $30K in Electrical Costs PER MONTH! (Actual Example from Fairfield CA!!!)
What the key is designing the most efficient system on the front end, and not worrying about it on the back end. If you utilize the best and most efficient parts in each portion of your design, sweating the details is what it comes down to. Air Horn Shape. A 0.001" on this bearing journal compared to that one. Dial Indicating? Depth micing the pistons in the bore when assembled for deck height. It's the difference between an L24 tha makes 120 hp, and one that makes 180 hp, using identical componentry. And that's on an N/A.
On a turbo, even the smallest restriction can compound and cause a pressure rise that costs you unimaginable ammounts of horsepower.
It's not merely cramming in air through boost. That is the 60's paradigm. If you make the engine FLOW same as you would for an N/A, the horsepower you make will be achieved at a lower boost level. I have seen 380 Ft-Lbs of torque at 8psi (4500rpms). It's on a stock manifold. Normally that level of torque is had at 2X that boost level. Sweating the details on a Turbo Engine will reqard you will much more power than it ever will on an N/A setup, simply because you are dealing with flow FACTOR under pressure (2X or 3X loss for the same restriction).
60's Paradigm was 'no porting is required for Turbo Motors, just use boost'
Repeat for almost 20 years.
Then, in the early 80's these little Renault's and Hondas were making 1500-1700HP from engines of 1.5L displacement. It wasn't simply 3 bar boost that did that!
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I don't know about anyone else, but my twin 50mm pipes don't rub, and are not visible as a lowpoint using a 240 mount and proper hangers like the Z432. The divot may be 'small' but it's enough to properly hang a 60mm tube under there with no interference issues, and will keep your exhaust from being a low point.
I don't know, maybe I'm a talented exhaust system installer, but it's not been a problem using the OEM fittments on several cars I've installed this same style exhaust.
For a single 3" exhaust, no doubt the later 280Z mount is better, the cutout is much larger and allows you to stuff the huge pipe up further to get it clear of everything..
But for twins in the 60 mm range ( almost 2.5"...2.36" I believe...) using the stock 432 Exhaust hanging setup and early differential crossmember should present absolutely zero clearance issues, appearances and intuition to the contrary notwithstanding.
You can force something under there that wasn't designed to fit, or you can put it under there like the original engineering intended, and benefit from MUCH greater flow potential for a healthy engine compared to the single monster tube. Seems like a no-brainer if you don't want to rework a bunch of stuff. Just because it didn't come that way here doesn't mean we can't use the holes in the chassis, right?
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Yeah, the last 510 guy I talked with said he ordered the intake manifold and distributor from the Saudi-Arabian Market Truck. Nissan Motorsports used to be real good at getting parts like this... You may try Nismo in Tennessee or wherever they are now on that line of questioning. I have seen more than one with a four barrel on them, using a Nissan Carburetor Manifold.
One of the Nissan Employees had a T-Bucket Roadster with a VG30 in it as well, but he had the intake off Spence Low's Off Road Truck, which utilized three Mikuinis...one of which was cut in half! Three barrels on each side, 1 1/2 carburettors---interesting way to do it. He got that cross-ram style manifold for free before Motorsports Division crushed the truck. Perks...
One last, and more obscure manfiold you may want to consider out of wicked cool looks is the one produced in the 80's by a Japanese Company caled "TBO"...They had a tripple Weber 44 IDF manifold for the VG engine, had them inline down the center of the engine like a Jag or Ferrari V-8. Looked really cool, and at the time was the preferred manifold for Turbocharging the engine, one TBO Plenum and you were boosting away happily!
All these manifolds used a conventional distributor, so they're out there, you just have to find one.
OH, and since you are so familiar with the GM HEI, conversion of one of those is not a big deal. You have a distributor stalk made that will fit the block, and accomodate the upper portions of the HEI cap, etc, and assemble one using the GM internals driven through a VG Drive Spindle. They do this for VW's all the time. I think MSD has even put out a line of Billet Distributors for it now. The GM HEI is a fine standalone unit, and with the proper aftermarket module should provide plenty of spark. It's just getting a machinist to make up that mounting stalk. Some Lathe and Mill work and youre' ready to assemble! But beware of that huge cap! Fitting other things around it can be a pain sometimes...
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I shaved mine altogether. I stuck reflectorized tape along the spoiler on the front, and the pinchweld in the back. Light not required in California, just the reflectorized section... It's a parsing but the CHP begrudgingly has left me alone thusfar.
I hate Sidemarkers. I had to have them put in to federalize the Fairlady Z, and then promptly removed them and 'repaired' the butchery done in the name of my own safety.
Did I mention I think they should go back to Leather Helmets in the NFL?
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Ahhh, you are immune to the Devil! JeffP is not so strong.
I guess you must be like Wato; Jedi mind tricks don't work on me!" He's more like one of the Stormtroopers... "Those aren't the ITB's you're looking for, move along!"
LOL
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I'm with Miles about being wary of what people tell you, insist on the receipts and maybe even opening up some stuff to check it out before you buy.
I bought a Corvair one time where the P.O. told me 'cam, forged 0.060", balanced and lightened rotating assembly' I was like "yeah yeah yeah, no receipts or shop orders it don't mean anything, I'll give ya $1500 for the car as is..."---anyway, got two years down the road and pulled the fan cover to fix a leak and was shocked to find the guy was actually telling the truth! Isky Cam, 060" TRW Slugs...and shotpeened/lightened rods! I ended up taking photos of everything so later I could prove what was actually inside the engine.
It was an 'anomaly' as far as I've seen. Engines can run so well with just some head work and a cam, people think there is a LOT of work 'on the bottom' and end up getting burned. Caveat Emptor.
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I'd skip the Cartech...
The HKS and SK are worlds apart in engineering.
If you want a Cartech, buy some 2X4 Box Tubing and make your own, it's cheaper and will perform identically...
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Yeah, that's the "Burklands Streamliner" AA/BFS (Engine over 7 Liters, Blown, Alcohol Streamliner)
It's bad when you recognize competition by their car number! LOL
If you google "Burklands Streamliner" you will see more information than you want to know about the car!
It was made by Gene & Tom Burklands some time ago...he was out of Montana if memory serves.
This is a link to the photo of the car in it's current competitive colors/and numbers (313). Burkland's #411 car is a totally different bird these says, with a speed well exceeding the old B210 based car!
http://www.chevyasylum.com/bsf2007/wos/20070912/20070912_146r8.jpg
This link is somehow not letting us access the photo, yet I could download it from that addy...harumph! It looks nice in blue!!!
This is a link to the Burkland's History page...it has proper records and stuff on that car.
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Isn't there also high pressure air in the wheel well that you could use the vent to help get rid of? I fail to see why you would want to use the vents to only vent the engine bay and not double up and vent both the engine bay and the fender wells?
Cameron
Where did I say they weren't? The difference between the ricers and the racers was the vents didn't go anywhere, and the others were actually connected and performed an actual venting function. I don't see where your conclusion was drawn from what I said.
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Packaging. CART engines used the squarish inlets because the cylinder stack is so close, and they use BARREL THROTTLES in the heads, so 'differential across the butterfly' is not an issue at WOT.
If at all possible, the full recurved stacks like JohnC linked will produce the best flow characteristics.
Everything that applies to N/A flow will apply to a plenum with forced induction. No Luminetion Barrel Throttles in the works Jeff?
Muahahahahaha! 45 mm hole with tip in characteristics like a 40mm, and WOT flow comparable to a 48.....
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Run dual 2.5" tube all the way back, then package accordingly. If you use the early 240Z differential crossmember you can hang the tubes like the stock Z432 Exhaust (twin 50mm or 60mm pipes) and all the exhaust will be invisible from the side... WELL up in the tunnel, and above the lower portions of the Framerails. The 240 diffy crossmember has the cutouts for dual exhausts. There is a reason those early cars ran the tubes straight out the back in twin pipes! FYI, twin 50mm pipes flow as much as a 2.78" single. Twin 2.5" pipes will flow similar to a 3.54" Single, and packages easier! Sucks up nicely and tightly if you use hangers at the rear just like the stock 432 Exhaust.
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I REFUSE to be soiled by the Z31's presence on my turf. All 69-83's and 89-up are welcome...
Sadly, that is the range of the stuff back there now. You never saw #305 when you were here last, did you? How could I ever put the "Nissan Saturn" next to #305???
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Yeah, that's not a 280ZX, it's a 210. Burklands' car...
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Are you sucking air on the inlet side of the pump? Perhaps a corroded pinhole inside the tank below fuel level.
Been there, done that on the 260!
At least it doesn't look like your pump is failed ( I was going to suggest rust ingestion from the tank till I saw 'prefiler'...then thought 'air leak'!)
Good Luck.
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On most road race tracks you are using about a 2,000 rpm range in each gear from 3rd through 5th, except for maybe one corner where you might need a 2,500 rpm range. If you gear the car correctly it really doesn't matter where that 2,000 rpm range is in the engine's rpm curve.
1) The 2000 rpms range is very true! Even in land speed racing, you are only below 'peak power range' when you push off from the line. Otherwise, you are shifting to have your engine at/near peak torque...on built N/A's that's usually 4000-4500...pulling to horsepower peak somewhere between 6-7000. On our L28 LSR L28 we rarely let the rpms drop below 5000 between shifts, and on the L20A closer to 6500.
2) Our dyno testing showed some very interesting results regarding 'Internet Flow Potentials' that would seem to support John C's experience as well. When dynoing our L28, we found that we required two different ECU calibrations for when we were dumping straight off the header to atmosphere, and when running a full DUAL 3" exhaust to the back of the car... When we run the belly pan, we have to run the full exhaust, and when we do, the car is down on HP around 8-12HP depending on where you are in the usable RPM range. We of course remapped the ECU to minimize these losses, and to optimze each situation. Thosed lossed are the 'best case' scenario.
When we went to the L20A (1998CC's) similarly we expected to have to recalibrate the engine when running header-dump versus full exhaust. In this case, with theengine making it's power peak closer to 8800 rpms (as opposed to the L28 at 8300) we noticed no difference in HP levels with or without the exhaust in place. So somewhere around less than 1400CC's at 14:1 CR and 8000rpms is where you will start to see a decrease in performance unless you are using a 3" exhaust!
The L28 runs 14:1 CR, power peak at 8250. 320 HP
The L20A runs 12:1 CR, power peak at 8775. 205 HP
I could say that DUAL 3" exhausts on an L28 will show benefits... so a single would be 'shy'!
Curiously, the Z432 came from the factory with TWIN 60mm pipes on it's exhaust system, and the original L24 Sport Exhaust was Twin 50's...when you do the cross-sectional comparison the equivalent is a minimum of 2.78" diameter for the L-Engine, and 3.34" for the S20 DOHC setup. Something to keep in mind for what Nissan Engineers thought was an 'optimized' setup for a STOCK engine!
N/A versus Turbo are two different thoughts according to most, but for a Turbo 'Bigger is Better' is the simplest way to put it, the less backpressure you have the quicker you spool. And that is the name of the game. There, now I at least touched on the original topic!
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"The stationary pulley is a roller for a z31 timing belt. "
I knew they came in handy for somethingorother!
DIY throttle body
in Fuel Delivery
Posted
Actually, Kinsler makes a TPS bracket that allows you to mount a GM style TPS just about anywhere along the llinkage. It operates with a linkage arm, and if you have a 'kickdown cable' for that V8 Lump, you can connect it to that easily putting it anywhere you can fit it, connected via an aux throttle cable..
Another alternative is to slot the throttle shaft, and 'extend' it slightly to actuate a TPS.