Tony D
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Posts posted by Tony D
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IT IS TOO SMALL!
I made one, and it was horrid on carburettors. MUCH worse than the knockoff HKS I build in Japan.
It should be more like 4X4, which is about Cartech size, but it's still just a box and doesn't pressurize the float bowls to enrich on-boost like the HKS and SK Plenums do. With the proper entry strategy, and plenum that size could probably be baffled to work correctly, but inside an extrusion it would be a job. You may as well fabe the whole thing and not take shortcuts.
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CB was vending Dellortos for a long while since they have specific turbo-application emulsion tubes, as well as seals for the throttle shafts. OEM fittment on the Maserati BiTurbo (Dellorto). For OEM driving (period correct) I'd find Dellortos and get the book "Turbomania" sold by Claudes Buggies (CB Performance)....it may disturb some, it knocks a lot of myths out of the Blowthrough Carb setup.But keep in mind CB now sells EFI for Turbo Applications for a reason...
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I notice there is always reference to using an electric fan as freeing up HP. It does not free up as much as you would think when its on, it takes a few ponies to drive an alternator under load. Some of the fans out there draw major current.
Evan
There is the thing that nobody points out: "when it's on"....
It is very unlikely that your electric fan will be on driving down the road at any speed over 30mph, or during a 1/4 mile run.
And it's this time when all available horsepower is required, lettting the electric fan free up the 2-5 hp that a fan will soak up. If you look at the clutch fan engagement speeds and freewheel speeds even when the fluid coupling is disengaged, the fan is still being turned, there is no way to totally stop it it's using horsepower. On an electric, you can simply turn it off, elminating all parasitic drag. If the fluid coupling is engaged, the horsepower to drive it at locked-coupling speeds is prodigious. People really don't realize how much horsepower a fan can suck up when moving air.
As an example, Ingersoll-Rand went to an electric driven fan on their air-cooled compressors (5hp motor) to give a perceived marketing advantage over a competitior Atlas Copco, who used a fan turned by the main motor driver shaft through it's compressor's gearbox. When comparing compressor total CFM output, purchasing agents would see the I-R unit 'made 25 more CFM' than the Atlas Copco did....But when you looked at total package absorbed KW, they were identical (at full load).
One way or the other, the engine needs to be cooled. With an E-Fan it only cools when needed. With an engine driven fan, regardless, you are always using main motor power to keep it spinning.
Also, using the battery as capacitance, the electrical load of the E-Fan turning can be dampened out as a lower overall load instead of a huge instantaneous hit to the alternator. So it's a lower drain than if there was no battery at all...same power is used, just sperada out over more time. Same as adding a large air vessel in a compressed air system---the more storage you have, the lower the hp requirement you can get away with to handle impulse loadings.
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But he was tuning an engine for 2.5hp per cubic inch for drag racing we also adjusted the valves every pass.
That's only 420 HP on a stock bore/stroke L28.
Which is why, other than some nostaligic reason, or period restoration using ITB's and Fuel Injection is a better option at these horsepower levels.
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Anybody familiar with SPG Dowelling Jigs for Crankshafts?
8 dowels, offset, with a big gland nut in the center like a knock-off wheel spinner. VW has em...
Many prepped Datsun engines have dowels in the flywheel (besides the LD28) to add some shear resistance, as well as positively locating the flywheel in the EXACT same place every time it's removed.
Critical when you want that expensive balance job to actually be repeatable.
I was looking at the photos, and it looks like something in the journal propogated outward, but it's very hard to tell from the photos---or at least on my computer it is the way it opens the photos.
It's an interesting looking break, that is for sure.
Blast from the past: Don Potter, the "Curmudgeon" LOL
Say it in a loving way. I'm positively radiant that someone remembers someone meaner than me (when he wanted to be) ROMAFLOL!!!!!
He did nice distributor work. E88 Heads as well. Is he still up in Milpitas anybody know? What was it DLP Engineering?
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Watch Wangan Midnight again.
The engine STARTED as a Carb Blowthrough. By the end of the movie it's ITBs and Fuel Injection.
The car is real (was) done by SSS. Search and ye shall find. I'm surprised it hasn't hit the tool shed, as this one is covered extensively.
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The Injetor being where it is doesn't affect flow like you would think. Air comes in from the edges of the port, not directly down the center of the hole. It's why full radius horns flow better then straight hole walls.
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It was common for people to use the exhaust tubing, and spotweld a washer inside so when they drilled the inspection hole that shows what thickness the piping is, it looks thicker than what it really is!
Usually they did a bad job, and you could see the seam between the two. But some guys were pretty good at brazing, soldering, or simply painting it good enough to cover it up and make it look 'thick'.
Once enough people were doing it, the inspection hole was to be drilled by the inspector at a point of his choice. That stopped the B.S. Straightaway. Holes for venting so you didn't get blowout when welding were to be drilled in the mounting plates...yeah that was the nezxt excuse to dodge the rules.
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What was it? It needed adjusting, or the bearing wasn't seated making the assembly too long?
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You shouldn't have listened to your friend.
1) Pull your transmission back off.
2) Install the T/O collar off the 240 Tranny -OR- Install the matching clutch and pressure plate from the 280 to the 240 engine.
Your collar is the wrong size for the diaphragm you have in there.
Frankly, I would have kept it all '280Z' by changing the clutch cover and the clutch without changing the flywheel. They should be the same size (diameter). I don't believe that changed till the 280ZX.
Your friend screwed you.
As for the shifter, you have to alter the hole for it not to hit in 1,3,5 gears. Depending on the production date of your 71 this may or may not be a problem. Sounds like your shifter goes into all gears without hitting the tunnel sheetmetal, so I don't think you have the earlier hole position.
I think these are the questions you are asking, I'm slightly befuddles by yoru syntax and word usage and what it means exactly, but knowing the swap you did, I'm hitting the 99% issues that usually come up when people don't 'follow the rules' for matching components.
GOOD LUCK!
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Just adding weight.
John, you would really like Ad (the guy with the aluminum bolts for the CF fenders.) You sound just like him!
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Example: A completely stock turbo L28 is gonna produce about 180hp, but a COMPLETELY stock L28ET using megasquirt instead of the stock computer, with raise fuel pressure, and raised PSI from the turbo will be able to reach about 210 wheel HP (remember that the stock 180 I reffered to was crank, which would be about 155 or less wheel HP).
Just as a note, the Eurospec L28ET's run a .82 A/R exhaust turbine, and a simpler EFI system that utilizes a standard E12-80 Distributor fitted with a Pneumatic Retard Cannister....and it was rated at 200HP.
So yeah, pretty much you remap a stock turbo and a 20hp bump is the minimum to be expected when you put the fueling in line with the Eurospec version. A good downpipe and exhaust can add 20HP on a stock setup without the remapping. So without an I/C and only fuel remapping and a good exhaust 220 should be available at the crank.
That's plenty fast for an S30 with a stock suspension as stated above. Make it handle first, learn to drive it to 10/10ths' second, and then start adding power to the chassis as by then you will know what you have to tweak to keep it all hooked up. Not what most want to hear, but the biggest item holding a Z-Car back is usually found behind the wheel, not under the bonnet!
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Nice Shed! Wish I had one that size. Or any indoor working environment...
Terrible, I notice the garage! LOL
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Is the SK piece more like the type 1 or type 2 hks? Front mount inlet, or side mount inlet?
It is a 'top mount'...add that to the mix.
There is an adapter that goes on the inlets (which can be in two different places) that points forward, though, so you have several options.
The biggest difference between the SK and the HKS is that both HKS plenums utilize cast-in baffling to diffuse the air, and separate the airflows to give a higher-pressure zone in the float bowls under boost, where the SK has a simple 2mm thick baffle that is secured in with screws after mounting the unit.
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Yes, if you find a cartech manifold, just throw it away like the garbage it is. I'll let you use my trashcan, even. In fact, I'll pay for shipping so I can personally "take care of it" for you, we don't want to run any risk junk like that might make it onto a Z.
I'm going to point out this much, All jesting aside:
If the car realy and truly has blowthrough CARBURETTORS, I would throw a Cartech Plenum in the Trash. ITB's and Carburettors are like apples and oranges, and conclusions drawn from one setup in one condition can not be applied to another, and in this case carbs are VERY different than EFI when this particular piece is applied to them. Carbs will have a tip-in transient lean spot that WILL NOT GO AWAY unless you jet your car SO big your mileage gets shot to hell with a Cartech Plenum, or any of the simpler, cheaper, EASIER alternatives like home-made plenums constructed out of 2X4" Extruded Box Tubing. And even, jetted fatter than Oprah, that might not do it mask the transient lean situation. This may have been a combination of things including the flow rates on my compressor... but the Cartech, as well as 'knockoff boxes' and the owners I talked to ALL had the EXACT same problem with a transient tip-in from hikghway cruise that caused bucking, popping, and other ill drivability issues. At WOT, all three of the boxes subjectively felt the same, though above 130 mph, the smaller plenum of the Cartech seemed to be somewhat limiting in the 'punch' when boost came on compared to the HKS unit. Sure, you can make power with them, seen 425 at the rear wheels on some people here in So Cal with that setup...but they all had the same issue as me on transient lean during highway cruise. Your car does not live at WOT. It lives at or near peak torque with miniscule throttle openings most of the time...and the difference between the Cartech setup and the others is like night and day. For racing? Who cares...anybody can make big power, you can use PVC Sewer Pipe for your plenum with epoxied flanges if it holds together. That is not the issue nor the question. Being "JDM" has nothing to do with it. It has to do with the basic engineering behind the airflow into the box under pressure and the resultant issues of fuel metering flow through the main venturis as they transition from idle to main. You CAN use a simple box and pressurize the float bowls and it will "Work"... This is the Cartech Approach. But if you take a more nuanced engineering approach to the issue and want it to 'work' at more than just WOT then something has to be done to improve partial throttle drivability, notably tip-in and light throttle applications. After 30% opening, it works fine. But that transition is a bitch! I never got it right, and countless others had the same buggaboo. They chose to live with it, I'm sure you could too. Should you HAVE to is the real question. With the availability of HKS and SK plenums---the answer is 'no'!
For EFI, it is somewhat more suitable. If you have ITB's then a Cartech box would work somewhat better than if you had carbs on there as you are using programmable EFI and can take out the transient lean issue with accel shot or some other form of precise fueling in the 100-120kpa range. (But I was under the impression that this unit was being spec'd for CARBS and not ITB's...) Mine incessantly popped between a manifold vacuum of "0" to 2psi, after which all was good and it ran like a raped ape. But running at cruise at 60 mph, you tended to use a lot more throttle with the Cartech box to make sure you quickly went onto boost at 3psi so the car wouldn't buck or pop. My final straw was driving up a 22 mile grade of some miniscule rate into a headwind, the car just would not settle on a attitude that didn't have it coughing and popping every few hundred yards. I drove this grade several times with the HKS box and NEVER had this issue. It was this annoying drivability issue that cemented my choice to go programmable EFI once and for all. 99.999% of the time, the car was flawless (other than the combined mileage of 17mpg in daily drive use---equivalent to what the car did with SU's when it was N/A!!!).
Putting that smaller plenum on there screwed it all up. There is more to boosting a carb than simply putting a box on the inlet and jetting it fat (Which is what you have to do with the Cartech). At that point I simply wasn't going to get into making modulator rings and doing testing on them. I had had it. I'm sure with modulator rings I could have MADE the box work, and likely I would have needed 32 or 34mm Modulator Rings. But why screw with it when an EFI system won't have that issue at all, and instead of fixing a problem mechanically, I can tune it with the hardware currently on the vehicle. And if I cam it later, I simply click some keyboard keys and I'm done, instead of getting out the Bridgeport and machining aluminum sheets... Curiously, when I boosted mine for the first time using the HKS Style box with the jetting from the car in N/A state, I went REALLY rich under boost. I actually moved down in some of the jet sizes when putting a turbo onto the same carbs on the same car, on the same engine. Anybody who says 'carbs are easy' in reference to jetting under boost hasn't done it, or had the results quantified independently!
But I digress...
Even for EFI, as MONZSTER is finding out, the plenum selection for an ITB setup is more than simply a box as well, and baffling the inlet to allow for diffusion of incoming airflow makes for a more balanced and equal flow into all cylinders under boost, rather than starving the first two at the expense of overfeeding the rear two...which gives the nod to the HKS and SK plenums even in ITB service as well.
You may think you want that Cartech Box....but when you try the alternative and do it over long enough of a timeframe you will see what I mean.
A curious historical note, Jim Wolf Technology in the 80's was making blowthrough carburetted setups. He utilized the HKS Type-1 Box, and not the Cartech. With the HKS box ALONE selling for over $1000, why would he use that box over the Cartech system which I'm sure he could have gotten a big discount on as a volume seller? Why did JWT choose the HKS Type-1... Just a note in history that makes you wonder. I didn't know about this till two or so years ago when someone sold an 80's built JWT L-Engine and it was confirmed that was the configuration. I didn't think ANYBODY here in the USA was equipping these engines with HKS Turbo Components.
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Yeah, the big number IMO is around 350. If you plan on running track days and making more than 300-350 getting beefier stuff inside is a good plan. Below that, and with less track use, it's like 'double-secret probation'---you're the only one that knows it's in there, and until something goes 'boom' nobody else will ever know, either.
Most of Jeff's money is because he did that over the course of 20+ years. When taken in that light, and the fact that he recorded the thing scrupulously so he actually KNOWS how much he spent (including the original purchase price of the vehicle, as well as a major crash repair) the costs really aren't out-of-line with what the majority of the people here have spent really.
It works out to around $2500 a year, give or take for years where things went 'crunch', 'Snap', or 'Boom'---to that, even myself, I must plead "Guilty"...and given how good his look, and how crappy mine look, that doesn't bode well for my cosmetic asthetic! LOL
(Come to think of it, Pal Pal says I have 'reached my spending limit' which apparently is $10K...WTF? That couldn't be right....)
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Like Greenmonster said, Type 1 can be either-or. Many times a forward facing adapter was put to the 'dual inlets' when intercooled. Though again, the pipe coming in from the bottom worked nicely in a 5-10 psi setup unintercooled. It was well over 200HP on a stock L28 in that form.
I have seen the Type 1 boxes with over 600 HP (444Kw).
Type 2 Boxes were used in later years and have some advantages in packaging, and slightly different internal airflow.
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Were those standard sized journals, or 0.010" undersized?
I have seen that kind of breakage 15 years ago in Japan in racing cranks, I don't think the parts age had as much to do with it as the conditions it was placed in.
I have seen undersized crank journals break like this because of the improper grinding of the radius (or lack thereof).
Was this crank magnafluxed before being put into racing service?
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Crankshafts are plentiful, and cheap. Cheaper than the inserts, in fact here in SoCal. I think most junkyards like PYP are around $35-40 for a crankshaft. And it's not like there aren't hundreds of cranks out there waiting for harvesting.
Unless this crank has specialty machining, or has already been magnafluxed or something, I'd skip it and just get another one and stick it in there. If it was $1500 for a crank, that's one thing. But for under $100....
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Neat, I like old stuff like that. I can't imagine loading that thing. Normally naval guns were '10 pounders' meaning they could cast a shot weighing 10# a specified distance. That has to be some sort of Howitzer Round with a big loft to it, as I don't see a single man (like on a horizontal cannon) loading them alone. But a 'drop in Howitzer' could be loaded easily by two men with that load.
I was boonie stomping near my house when in Okinawa, and ran across a 4" Naval Warhead just sticking out of the coral cliff. I left it alone... Two years later we got an evacuation notice, I figured someone found it and EOD was clearing the area...I was wrong. They were digging foundations for a hotel directly across the river from us, and dug into a 15" naval projectile, and then several other aviation-related bits of ordinance.
From what I understand those 'clamshell' driveways you guys in MD and DE are happily installing routinely get small ordinance like Grenades and etc from the dredging operations. Apparently troop ships were not that far out before they got the troops practicing to stay sharp. And dumping from Aberdeen was done wholesale in the ocean. Mmmmmm, new driveway and pinapples start sprouting! LOL
I'd roll it someplace to the front of the house, and use it for a conversation piece.
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My wife doesn't like me posting that kind of info on the internet
Maaaan, I tried to be circumspect and you guys went and gave me mental images that were worse than good old clean matted pirate beard...
Thanks alot!
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Yes, avoid #1.
#2&3 are HKS Type 1
#4 Looks like a polished HKS Type 2, with 'HKS Surge Tank' ground off. The BOV is mounted exactly as my Type 2 is, and looks to be the same BOV as well...I would think if they were making a knockoff, they would use what they could find, rather than HKS Application SPecific Hardware.
Note the Radiator support work on that Red Car! Ahhh, memories!
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BTW your goals are very realistic but at the same time all the people I know personaly who run 400 or more RWHP with L series engines have trouble with their "streetability" and end up using them on a very limited basis.
Dragonfly
Oh dude, you're crucifying me for 25-30 HP?!?!?!?!?!? My dyno runs were only 17psi, I'm sure I was closer to 400 at 21-22psi, I just never verified it on the dyno... The old 'Shark Car' was daily driven with a Blowthrough Carb setup. And it was an N/A with 8.5:1 CR with a JDM N42 head/block... My drivability problems came after I stupidly changed the design for my plenum from something that was working, but hitting the hood lightly, to something that 'looked cooler'....BIG Mistake. I stopped driving it because I wanted to freshen up the car after 10 years of beating on it almost daily...put on some EFI, etc... Then 'Life Happened' and it sits, resting, waiting for the day I return to it with wrench in hand, ready to ressurect it.
I'm not sure how well you know JeffP, I know he has commented on how nice your car is, and his car is well above that HP level and is really streetable. Totally. He'd drive it daily if he'd get the EMS system sorted out, but for daily drivability it's easily doable.
That aside, to the question at hand: CR.
Either is acceptable. If they have to dish the head to give you 8:1, MAKE SURE they replicate the combustion chamber in the crown of the piston, as you want that flat quench area in there if at all possible. My guess is 8 and 8.3 are their standard cuts, and that is why they 'suggested them'.
The CR will depend on what Combustion chamber you currently have. If you 'spent a lot of money on the head already' then I can only ASSUME that the combustion chambers were welded and reshaped for higher quench and proper fastburn design---in which case 8.5:1 would not be untoward at only 400 HP. And if you are running Alky Injection...then the CR could be much higher as it really slows down the burn and cools it all down, preventing detonation with setups that would never live at the levels people drive them to. A Smarter idea is to build the bottom end to accomodate the power level WITHOUT the alky, and then use it as a detonant supressor for standard pump gas. That way if your tank has run out for the evening, you can simply knock off a pound of two of the boost, and drive home without worrying the thing will detonate when you get into boost the next time up the long hill home.
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I can respect Ernie's thoughts on "old versus new technology" if he really thought the new technology really was a superior technique.
But I also have to say that Metallicar's comments also hold great weight, and are along the lines of my thinking. My job requires me to update to new techniques almost all the time. Thing is many of the equipment I service and maintain are built 30 or more years ago. In many cases, buys ONLY taught on new techniques will have absolutely NO idea WHY any of the existing modifications are on any particular piece of equipment.
I work with Engineers that have worked on this stuff in many cases for 30-40 years. They are continually amazed that I pick up stuff from old supersceded technical bulletins that are still applicable to newer equipment.
It's referred to as 'institutional heritage'---at another site where 'technical information' can and many times is spurious at best, pulling an old post is not a big deal. But when the information is historically correct, there IS a place for it in the archives. Sure someone can say 'they haven't done that for 20 years' but if you are doing it on a 20 year old piece of equipment, and you KNOW IT LASTS 20 YEARS...
See where I'm going with this?
Manny techniques that are 'new today' may not be known to last more than 10 years...which is a commercially acceptable timeframe in the trade. But some of the old techniques have been known to last 20+ years... Which do you prefer to learn? Something that is current, new, and may last 10 years? Or something old, that you know will last at least 20 years?
If Ernie really did think it was a technological update worthy of abandoning the former technique, I would say the preferred note would have been an '' notification at the beginning of the post warning about an updated superior technique that is available. That is what I would do, and probably is a better than simply removing the whole post or series of posts, as you can see what kind of impression that can make.
As for printing in PDF, I don't know about 'Docucom PDF Driver' which came with my HP scanner software, but I have been VERY happy with my Nuance Software that came with Paperport 9.0 and above versions (up to V11 I believe). I have used it to print and generate PDF's for years. It's a driver that shows up in all your 'print options' and allows you to make paperless PDF's of anything you could normally print to a printer. Paper Port allows you to edit all PDF's as well, and it's OCR stuff with a companion piece of software works well from what I've been experiencing (Omnipage 15). Many pages and documents are 'printed' this way when I'm on the road, and it's a GOOD idea when archiving pages such as these.
Carbureted turbo
in Nissan L6 Forum
Posted
Yes, the BiTurbo and the Lotus were two Blowthrough OEM applications. I used Maserati Bi-Turbo as it was notably mentioned by CB. The Lotus used a lot more boost than the Maserati. WooHoo!
All the parts for the Dellorto DHLA in turbo service are suitable for fittment to the N/A DHLA for conversion to the Turbo Service.