Tony D
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Posts posted by Tony D
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Something is working. Cranked it today, and actually got spark.
Amazing!
Now I have to put everything else in to the car (like interior, fuel tank, fuel pump, radiator, etc!) and wait for the "big day" when I can actually hear it run, and not just fantasize about how great it will sound...
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Xander, the big determining factor on interchangability is wether or not you have an external striker mechanisim on the door, or one that is inside the door.
The Fairlayd Z's had the same mechanisim from day one to day none in 78, so their stuff is all interchangable.
I suspect the bodies of the Euro 260Z should be similar to the Farilady Z, and you might be able to get away with 73 or 74 doors.
Good Luck in your search.
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actually, the throttle plate in front of the compressor would lead to hellacious surge problems on lift-throttle if you throttle it shut while the thing was still under boost.
Thisis a phenomenon that occurs in centrufugal air compressors in industrial applications, and they use very sophisticated blowoff schemes to keep the throttled inlet of the turbo away from the surge line.
Butthen again, that is for fixed-speed turbines.
On an automotive application, the variable speed nature would probably negate the surge problem.
With the throttle shut, the compressor wheel would be playing in a vacuum (or near to it) and with no load across the compressor, should coast down slower that it would fighting boost before the blowoff occurs to the front of the turbine (the way most people set it up). With a properly adjusted compressor bypass valve, even a slight lifting of the throttle will lift the bypass---and no slowing occurs.
Basically, I think the only setup with a throttled turbocharger inlet would be on diesel engines, and that is for shutdown/emergency shutdown.
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I have finished wiring the interconnect cable on the 260Z Project, and the test on the 81 CAS will probably happen Sunday Afternoon if I can get all the stuff downloaded to the ECU, and verify all the connections one last time.
I ran across a strange quirk. I know Moby's instructions call for having the MS in the same configuration as set up for the Stimulator.
This I would assume means Pin25 on the MS (Engine Ground for XG1 Jumper) would go to, obviously Pin 25 on the Relay Board, and the S1 terminal would be jumped over to Engine Ground.
Simple, huh? Not if you are like me and went ahead and USED S1 through S5 as Hot and Ground for several other items that needed to be driven off the Fuel Pump Circuit. I'd jumpered S1,2,3 together under the board with wire, and then over to Terminal 5 Fuel Pump Out, and S4,5 to Engine Ground. This allowed me to run the Fast Idle Heater, as well as the O2 Sensor Heater from S1 and S2, with S3 as a spare Switched Hot, and I used S4&5 as Ground for the aforementioned items.
So what to do with Pin 25, which is board-traced to S1? I took it out on Pin25 from the MS, and transposed the same wire not to Pin 25 at the Relay Board, but to Pin 7 (general engine ground board-traced).
I hope to Gawd this works. None of the jumpers that were supposed to go to S2, 3, 4, &5 were run from the MS box, but spares exist in the bundle to connect them if I need to do that.
Questions is... do I need those jumpers, Moby? Anyone?
I wire the Bootloader Switch tomorrow morning, and start downloading the files needed for the test....
Will read the Sticky once more, and see if I am missing anything, and keep my fingers crossed when I do the power-on and spark check. After almost two months we should hopefully know if the 81 CAS is compatible with the system as connected for an 82/83 CAS.
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I would be tempted to say heat soak myself.
My 75 does that after I stop and fill up for gas after driving for three hours at 80+ across the desert. If I keep going and keep air moving through the engine bay, all is fine.
Have you driven the car with a fuel gauge (this will sound/look kinda stupid) taped on your windshield? I did this to determine that the fuel pressure was just jmping all around (bubbles in the rail) and stayed that way until the cool fuel worked it's way through the hot section of the rail, and pressure came up/stabilized.
What I rigged for my long desert trips is a bypass so I can hold the fuel pump "on" for 15 or 20 seconds after a hot-soak episode. By pre-priming the fuel rail, my troubles went away all together. All it took was making sure the rail was up to full pressure and no bubbles were in the line before I cranked the car for initial fire.
This may not be what you are experiencing, but the gauge will at least tell you what, if anything, your fuel system is doing when very hot.
The I/C WILL add heat to the engine bay. If from nothing else restriction of flow over the radiator. A fan to circulate air after shutdown may help (like Nissan did). I run a 160 Chevy Thermostat in the car, and in general the car runs at 170 when fully hot which is close enough for stock ECU to turn off almost all of the cold enrichments. I still get 22mpg on my 75 while driving 80+ towing a small trailer, so it's not too rich!
Good luck man, I know I didn't answer your questions directly, but thought this might help.
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I was in the same situation as you Baastaad! I didn't want two ECU's running. Then an 81 turbo engine landed in my lap, and I had a 260 with no motor... So I was going to just slap in one of my MS units, and go with a conventional BTM on an MSD6A.
Then the MS-nS was revealed to me, and my mind was made up.
I recall it was only the second week of December when I said Id' try it and let Moby know if the wiring did work on the 81CAS the same way it does on an 82/83. Now, being anal about wiring and shrink wrap elongates the project, and replacing bolts cause their dirty, etc etc etc has made the job go long, but the wiring of the boxes would have taken maybe two days in the driveway if I'd had an already running 81 setup in the car.
Were I to do it again, I would parse the OEM harness, as it has a lot of good parts and is already wired nicely.
The MS took me 5 hours start to finish to solder together. The relay box about 45 minutes. Case mods for everything took another hour, and a lot of that was figuring out how I wanted to do what I needed to do.
But in the end, you have totally tuneable EFI and Spark. With the ability to incorporate WBO2 control! For that I figure it's worth it.
When I do the TBI 260Z, I will be buying a new 82/83ZXT CAS, and replacing the distributor currently in the car. I will then have MS-n-S running fuel and spark in the 260 which from external cursory glances will look stock... Muahahahaaaa how big of a cam can I run again and have a smooth idle with EFI..... "Yeah, it's stock. Yep, those are the factory Flat Tops. Yes, the AIR pump and AC work, don't you see the belts on them?"
Muahahahahaaaaaa...
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That's how you should approach it.
Get a good pressure gauge, as trimming the rising rate can be a bit tedious.
But on standalone, you say "bin at 2000 to 3000 rpm 5% less fuel", "bin 5000 to 6000 10% more fuel" one of the GREAT advantages over carburetion and older EFI systems.
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The clutch and brake pedals are NOT the same as the LHD units, as the bend in the long part of the pedal still points so the pedals are centered in the footwell.
LHD pedals on the right side of the car do not put the pedals in the proper positon.
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Ain't gonna be Moby! He already has programmable spark and fuel in the car using Megasquirt-n-Spark for a reasonable cost.
Hell, for the two or three hours spent tuning the car to run right, you may not even FIND all the Z31 conversion parts in the JY! Tuning is not that big a deal, especially if you have a dyno access with an AFR readout.
Most with MS are running in a few minutes, and driveable soon thereafter. Usually within 2 hours of seat time tuning you have a vehicle that runs at least as well as stock, but with better fuel economy!
And when you add boost, or injectors, or intercooler, you simply retune by tweaking the effected bins. Not so easy on a Z31 ecu...
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similar curve...
the AFM goes wide open, and after that, the ECU is on the assumption that thethrottle is WOT, so it's basically calibrated to the HP Peak way "safe rich" and that is good enough to hold the engine waaay past redline at the stock boost.
At 10psi, it starts getting ragged towards the big end. At stock boost, take a look at your AFR at 6500 under full boost (stock boost remember!)
Yeah, this is somethign to do with the capabilities fo the chip in the ECU---probably saving memory for other calibrations due to emissions. This is the tradeoff made for most GM vehicles---way lots of code for emissions stuff, very little in actual code for the actual fuel map.
So having a map that only goes to the hp peak at the point the "emergency relief valve" lifts is fine, as even though the engine revs above that point, at 11:1, the leaning outthat will occur between 5500 and 6500 will not blow the enigne.
Follow?
This, BTW is the same thing JG Engine Dynamics knew 10 years ago. His comment to everyone with a J pipe was "don't go over 10psi, you won't get any more HP" It was his conclusion then that the map was stopped at 10psi/5500rpm and anything beyond that was iffy... We all seem to be confirming that now, all these years later...
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I should have clarified, stating that by "maxed out" I meant the pulsewidth hits a stopping point in the map, and stays level from that point onward.
Mazda does this on some systems. Rpm and pulsewidth maps go up, up, up then just stay at the last setting as rpm/boost rises off the maps. Very dangerous, but if you don't go below say 13 or 14:1 by the time the engine redlines, it's a cheap and simple way to cut costs.
The N/A computers were analog, and from what I understand they will keep going up on the map linearly until redline, and this is why some people prefer the N/A computer for the turbo application when tweaking things.
I agree, the flow from the 270cc stock turbo injectors should support WAY more than 200HP, but only if you have the fuel flowing through the orifice through either pulsewidth increases, or fuel pressure increases.
I was kinda rushing when I typed it, hope this makes more clear what I was trying to convey. The Z31 ecu has a more-better mapping than the original ECCS that came on the 280ZXT's.
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i can't speak to the richness on the bottom end other than to say the pressure rises quicker than the engine can rev, and it gets rich.
As for the top end, it's due from what I have deduced (and others correct me if I'm off) as the injectors are just about maxed out anyway.
This is why the RRFPR seems to tweak the engines a bit on the top end keeping it richer up top thant stock. More fuel pressure, more fuel.
Oh, wait, you already know about that! LOL
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HEY HEY HEY! Re-Read my post! I didn't run the line back through the vapor tank! I ran it into a fitting that is in the side of the filler neck.
It is a brass iftting I screwed into the filler neck (looks a lot like the factory turbo return line setup on a 66 Corvair Corsa Trubo)!
I don't even HAVE a vapor recovery tank on my 73! I have the upper fuel filler neck from a JDM Z432R which has a simple 1/4" hose that vents the tank overboard so if you overfill it, it spills to the ground.
The fuel return fitting is below that, with a little 3" nub of copper tubing soldered into it to direct the returned fuel back down towards the tank properly.
I have filled it over the return and have had no problems with fuel "backing up" All you are doing is creatinga circulating flow, not actually building pressure in the tank save from thermal expansion, and that's why the tank cap and vapor tank are vented at 3" h2o....
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Oh, it's even better than that!
The switchable narrow band output is user configurable for any AFR.
So if you aren't running a catalyst (on an early vehicle for instance) there is no need to stick with the catalyst-dictated 14.7 AFR, and you can configure something more along the lines of 15.8 and REALLY see an increase of gas mileage during cruise!
Cooooool!
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I could not even run with the stock N/A fuel pump through the stock 240Z return line. I am amazed you could run at all!
Very common problem, and is usually solved by running fuel return through the vapor line from the tank to the crankcase.
You have to do some jiggering with how you get the return line to that vapor line, as it runs along the left side of the engine / fender well, but is a full 1/4 or 5/16" I.D., and worked just fine as a return line for me---and several other people.
Easy way to check it is to loop some EFI line back to the line and hook it into the tank out back. I had a return fitting in my filler neck from somethign else, so that is how mine is currently tubed up out back. If you already have a 280Z tank with the big pickup line and 1/4" return line, then you can run the vapor line to the tank return fitting.
That should solve your problem.
Good Luck...
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You probably could get by with a very low-volume furnace setup and one heat gun, but I would think the heat source would have to pe piped into the center of the setup, and then diffused around the outer peripherey.
It would just take longer to heat it all up.
With a multiple setup you can heat the first window in less than 20 minutes, and subsequent sheets at intervals of about 10 to 15 minutes.
The only problem I had was the Asbestos board sometimes leftfibers on the surface, or transferred some of it's texture to the composite being heated. I usually polished it out using common techniques.
For something like the quarter windows, one gun is more than enough. I used two on the side windows, and four on the back glass, though I suspect I could have gotten by with two.
Once the bricks and concrete of thefloor are up to temp, it makes it all happen much quicker.
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The wiring for the simple N/A version will be soooo much easier!
I figure I do this one first, and it makes the other two on the list go that much easier. This is going to be a daily driver, for short errands and etc while the N/A gets done.
The N/A will only have two injectors, which will make wiring MUCH faster!
Whoodathunkit that the stock wiring harness has 60 feet of wire for the injectors? Don't think you will wire an injector harness with only 100 feet.
But the 1200 ft I've ended up buying will probably make my job easier on the next few...
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Today I finally got the relay box mounted.
Got a battery for the car and cranked it---engine is turning and has compression so that's good.
All of the sensors are wired except for the O2 sensor which I bought today(from an 87ZXT Z31 vehicle for the three wire self-heated setup), and already have the connector, so I can connect and wire it tomorrow.
Half of the injector wiring is in place, ready for soldering and shrink tubing installation, hopefully before the "Big Game" I can get the rest of the wiring for the injectors into place and start wiring in the injector plugs.
Man, I never thought those stupid "helping hands" alligator clip dojiggies would come in so handy, but for holding two wires absolutely in place while you solder them together they are invaluable.
Have to run the power and ground wires to the main connections on the relay board, and wiring to the fuel pump. (which is not installed yet either!)
If I can get all this sparkie crap out of the way, I can concentrate on the mechanical stuff, which is cake compared to this!
Heck, with no turn signals or even a combination switch on the steering column (stripper car I got for free!) I was amazed the thing actually rolled over when I connected the spare "cheater switch" I keep in the tool box!
Well if it cranks, I will get it to run. All I want is the thing to show me some SPARK when I crank it. If it does that, I will be ESTATIC as it means I have succeeded in the Megasquirt -n- Spark conversion. Fuel and injector flow is easy, this pure sparks and smoke stuff is difficult! LOL
Hopefully this will be done in time for MSA so I can actually drive a SHINY car to the event for once (at least for the first time in a few years!)
Thanks to those who have answered my questions on this project as they ahve arisen. WE should soon find out the 81 CAS question!
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I say strap it down and find out!
Your thinking seems logical. Have you measured teh fuel pressure during the run to see if it si dropping during the higher rpm run? If you see it starting dropping off, there's your answer. There is a flow stagnation on the stock pump at higher pressures, and with increaded pressure comes decreased flow....
The only way to confirm it is to strap-er down and wring it out!
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The O2 sensor whould not be in the loop at all during a dyno run as it's WOT, and the EGO circuit is disabled during such conditions.
Only during partial throttle conditions, below 3500 rpm (or thereabouts) does the O2 Circuit have any effect on the mixture, and then it's only about a +/- 5% from the factory programmed hard-code.
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Datto, take a look on the DRIVER'S side (I.E. Right Side) of the firewall, up near where the windshield washer tubes adn everything traverse just below the cowl lip. There you will find your VIN. It may be behind wiring, windshield washer tubing, and etc., but it's there!
The Japanese were very particular about VIN placement, and it isn't always visible. On some cars they dput it right smack dab in the middle of the firewall!
But that car came from the Factory with a VIN, it's in numbers like on an S30, with the odd slant and "0"'s with the pointy tops.
I had a 73 like this with the short nose and a G20 four cylinder (you know, the four cylinder L-Configuration of the VG30?
And I agree, this is a "Kenmary" or "Ken & Mary" Skyline, not "The Box"!
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for now, it will sit in the shed.
I have the triple mikuini setup for it along with the JDM manifold HKS sold, and the JDM fuel pressure regulator....everything to restore tehcarbs to their old glory.
But alas, I have been bitten by the Megasquirt bug, and this was an opportunistic diversion! I will use it eventually, but for now, am busy wiring a 260Z 2+2 for a turbo megasquirt-n-spark setup.
When that is done, I'm either going with the turbo for my 62 microbus, or restoring the turbo corvair to running condition, with real fuel control!
Somewhere in there, I would like to get the black car with the turbo running like back in the day.... Maybe that will be the next project---I know that one forward and backward, and know all I need to do to rework it. Several months ago a set of HKS Throttle Bodies were sold on E-Bay, and I though "nah".... Now I kick myself as those would be SERIOUS old-school leading edge technology convergence circa 1985! It would represent state of the art for aftermarket power for that time. Which is the era where I built 'ole Sharkie the first time!
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I was the winner on that auction. It arrived today via UPS. I finally have the final piece to my system built in 1986!
FINALLY!
Actually the twin inlets were made for twin turbo flowrates. RS Okinawa had one of these on 50MM OER carbs making 444HP to the rear wheels.
I will be media blasting it and recoating it with the original Krinklepaint. It is a fairly rough casting externally, and the krinklecoating helps conceal that fact.
I now am absolutely convinced the internal pressure baffle/diffuser was the key to the success of my first design, as this box is not just a box, but has a diffuser panel cast within it, allowing for better flow into each carb entrance. The downfall of my second design.
Vintage, if you want some photos, let me know, and I can take some this weekend and forward them to you for your buildup. I think I have both my other tanks fairly accessible for showing how different they were from this box!
He he he! I won the auction, I won the auction!
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Only drawback to using the stock pack is that unless you have the tool to pull the spade terminals out of the plastic connector, you end up having to put all the shrinkwrap on the wiring in reverse order before you solder/crimp everything into place.
Still got those injectors left to wire up. Can't find my connector tool, and got sidetracked shrinkwrapping sensors, routing the coil wiring, and pulling the FIdle relay off the relay board and resoldering in the jumper.
Wish I had a spare box top that was unaltered, the spot where the relay poked through is open now, and would have worked well with a stock grommet for the engine wiring harness....
Maybe some lexan to block it up....Who knows.
I GOT BOOST AGAIN!!!!!
in Turbo / Supercharger
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Good to hear you're on the road again!
Albiet slightly slower, but at least you are boosted once again!