Tony D
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Posts posted by Tony D
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The Turbo ECU enriches the mixture while cold via the injector pulsewidth, there is no cold-start injector. What you are experiencing on cold warmup if you do not have an air bypass solenoid or AAR bypass is just a very rich mixture until it warms up. It's the round thing with water lines that sists on the manifold just behind the throttle body with the big 15mm hoses going to it.
It should actually handle boost pretty well when cold being so rich!
Incidentally, the JDM market Fairlady 280Z(X) had no cold start injector either, they used a stepper motor on the bottom of the throttle body to control total air bypassed at idle regardless of temperature. Pretty advanced, and probably accomodated because the Japanese emissions requirements wer much more stringent from 75 to 81 than even California! They got all the cool stuff in Japan!
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That's what I thought, thanks!
From memory, somehow 6.3ohm seems like the number people were using for the ballast resistors---is that the range for yours?
Maybe that was the stock ballast setup. I just stripped out a wiring harness from an 81 N/A ZX, and the power lead and ballast resistor on that vehicle is VERY nice. I may run that for the power supply for the injectors, as the wiring is all ready long enough for my purposes.
Matter of fact, that's what I will do---it can only smoke some small components, I have three more boxes ready. If it works, it will make the Corvair and VW installation much easier as pre-wired harnesses already exist!
The 81 did not use the funky 4+2 resistor setup, and has a nice big power supply wire I can split out to the "INJ1 & 2" power block, and them return them conventionally to the 20 screw terminal block as needed. If is set it up as "simultaneous" firing of the injectors, the ground load will be separated three and three via how I wire... Nice sunny day to do the wiring---how nice!
Maybe I'll go do the calculations like in the FAQ just to make sure my amps are good. Maybe I only need one FET to drive the whole works---that would be nice for "spares" standpoint if the original should fail on the road one dark and stormy night...
Lets see, 6.3+2.8=9.1 ohm load per injector, across six injectors, E=IR...
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260DET, that is exactly how I made the rear window for my Fairlady Z racer while I was in Japan. Did the 1/4 windows and Roll-Up door windows, too.
I never got spunky enough to try it with the windshield, though.
The relatively easy shapes of all these galsses lends it'self to the "heat and drape" method.
I heated mine on an Asbestos Board (cough, cough...), inside a sheetmetal enclosure that had diffusers on it, and six heat guns blowing in under the asbestos sheet...
I scabbed an oven thermostat to a relay to turn the power strip on and off to control the heat guns (which were set for "high" which I believe was 1100 degrees...) I agree, the key is even heat that final setup was NOT what I started with, and I'm sure the first few windows had severely degraded stregnth from being heated several times to get the sheet evenly heated. In the end I held the temps at 250 for 10 minutes, then turned it up to 350. When I could see the temp gauge (oven thermometer) over the center of the sheet read 370 I would shut the works down, wait until the temp dropped to 350, and pick it up gingerly with tongs and place it on the window next to the "furnace".
Now all me secrets are revealed...
I never tried the cvacuum forming, but I would think the complex curve, and depth of the item would require some sort of pressure differential device or an A-B mould type setup.
Harbor freight is selling heat guns for $19 (and below $10 on sale!) so I might try this setup here in the states just for some fun.
McMaster Carr has Lexan in a thickness very close to the Stock Glass, so it goes into the stock rubbers without leaking if you trim it closely to the original. Very Nice, especially if you get the 90% light blocking tinted stuff!
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I'm wiring again. 2 hours and most of the sensors are done in rough layout. Will do the CAS tomorrow afternoon.
Having a brain fart, and the Yahoo Groups sites are down right now so I figured to post here and see if someone can run the Injector circuit for me.
I am looking at the "Inj1 and Inj2" Blue terminals, and these are supposed to be power....
And then on the 20 connector on the relay board, "Inj1 and Inj2" which are supposed to be the return?
So where are all your resistors positioned in relation to each bank>blue power source, split to resistors, on to injectors, then run back common to the connector terminal? Cause I'm wonderin' where ground occurs---back in the MS at the FET's? The circuit function was nothing I ever looked at before, I know how the stock works, and was planning on running the stock ballast pack until I learned there's only one power wire in, and I would like to use two banks alternating.
BAH! So close, now this...
Either way, the stuff is coming out nicely, and the harness should look fairly stock, so that will deflect any suspicions. hell, I still have to do the interconnect between the MS and the Relay Box... But that's incidental, as it's straight pin to pin stuff.
Are you guys using S1 through S5 for anything?
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Man! Those are some serious cables there Sims!
I have some of the gold resistors like you have, and was thinking some sort of plate arrangement like Moby suggested, I just wanted to hide it outta site, ya know?
I wish the stock Ballast Setup was more conducive for re-use. Either that, or I am brain-farting because I swore someone said they were using the stock ballast pack.
Doing that would be cool, way cool.
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Yeah, I saw the specs on the resistors somewhere. I think I will mount the resistors similarly then, maybe amke a combination mounting plate for the relay box and everything.
Right now I am debating pulling the socket off the board totally and soldering in the jumper for the F-Idle, as I will be soldering in the leads for the Ignition Module from below the board, as well as adding the two pullup resistors and soldering in the power wires anyway...
You know, once the soldering station is fired up you may as well do it all---which will probably entail me assembline one of the Megaview kits I have sitting in the box right now...
I am running the Z31 Turbo Coil and it's connector, so I am making a harness from the relay box to the coil, and will run some ground wires to make sure everything gets landed properly.
Thanks for the reply, I'm off for some connectors and mounting herdware right now.
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Did you place your resistors in the harness itself? I am to the wiring part of the MSS install, and am debating the Stock Ballast Pack -vs- the big resistors in the lines, as well as figuring out how to make it neat looking.
I mounted the GM Ignition Module to the bottom of the Relay Box as a heat sink, and ran a few ground lines to make sure everything is grounding properly.
I am wondering about those who wired MS or MSS how they overcame the resistor question, or should I gut it out and do the PWM figuring?
I could post there, but this seems to get more "Z" related postings, so the post here will probably be more productive.
Wiring of the 81CAS was the easy part, once this other stuff is done, I can hook up power and see if it all works...
Thanks in advance!
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and if you use the Techedge DIYWBO2 with the ability to set the switchpoint, you can have the O2 sensor correct to something much more mileage-friendly like 15.7:1 for some really impressive cruise mileage figures!
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wow mate, sorry to have missed you! Was in the area making sales calls last week (started in Phoenix, travelled through NM, and made a big loop thru elpaso and back to so cal.
don't break anything, and good hunting!
Cheers!
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I wanted one of those badly during my tennure in Japan. Unfortunatelt it was 100,000 yen, and that was close enough to $1000 for me to say "knock it off". So I went over to the local speed shop, and did just that. Made my own, which worked much better than the 2X4" aluminum box tubing I subsequently replaced it with...
Why? I didn't pay attention to the sloped end on that tank. If you don't slope the tank, and simply make a big rectangular box with pressure baffles in it, it knocks a corner on the inside of the hood... BAH!
Afterwards I learned the EFI route was much better. Much Better...
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make sure your jetblocks have not vibrated loose. Mine used to do funky surging and I found several have vibrated loose.
Finding a screwdriver to fit the jets correctly so it doesn't cam-out of the groove is difficult, but worth it. I ended up with a 1/4" drive flat blade that was hollow ground that fit well, and the small ratchet lets me torque it so it won't come loose again.
I agree, you should be on mains and surging usually indicates a lean mixture. Are you sure you are not having a spark issue (ground problem)?
I've seen that, too!
Good Luck.
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so that's how it works, and what it does.
Thanks, from me, also. now I seewhat I am doing.
Wiring the engine bay this weekend. Dropped the engine in last weekend, but due to jobs out of the area, am not able to peck away at it for an hour or two each night like I have been doing for the past few months.
So soon I will post the results. I feel confident it will work the same as the late models, but this will dot the I's and cross the T's...
Again, thanks for the theory, I followed it.
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"Horses?"
Are you telling me all those books my wife has been receiving in the mail recently from the "Equestrian Book of the Month Club" portend bad things for my Z's? Maaaaaan!
The 81 CAS is sitting on the engine, hopefully I will have the motor dressed this weekend, and ready to go into the car for wiring to commence. Have all the bits, just need to hookem all together.
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This may be a bit odd of a suggestion, but why don't you have them Cermacote them on the INSIDE, and after it's cured and baked on, have them cap the ends with some silicone plugs and wrinkle-coat the outside.
The ceramic coating need only be on one surface to perform it's heat barrier function, so do it on the inside, and then you can wrinkle the outside so it all looks stealthy...
You of course have the shortest run fof piping from the intercooler to the T/B on the T/B side of the car, so it minimizes heat soak.
I can't tell you how many cars I've seen run the hot turbo outlet into the closest I/C connection, and then run the COOLED piping all the way across the front of the radiator back to the throttle body! Uh, when the turbo outlet is 230+ degrees, running it another 18 or 20" before it enters the I/C will not make any difference in heat getting into the airstream--if anything, it lets it cool slightly beofer it hits the I/C. Of course leaving the I/C, the best thing you can do is go with the shortest run straight to that T/B! Come to think of it, I'd only cermacote the piping to the T/B, as I don't see heat soaking into the hotside pipe as anythign worth worrying aobut.
That would be cheaper, too!
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I'm in the same boat as JeffP! Labor will eat you alive. I do not begrudge a gent making a living, and having run a shop, I realize $65 hourly is really a low rate for fabrication.
I decided to buy a bandsaw after seeing how well the Harbor Freight unit Jeff uses does, and do my own thing.
The way I look at it is 24 hours of labor is one man working for three days (also including running for parts, etc...) so while a custom shop might do it in 6 hours, they also most likely will charge $120 for the labor (like they do here in L.A.) A decent fab shop will charge a higher price because like stated, they have all the goodies to do it quickly, and their hours are all they have to make money on, so the question becomes do you want it done in 6 hours at $120 an hour, or in 12 to 20 hours as a competent fabricatior works out the setup, and goes at it from ground zero with you paying for setup and development of the final product.
Any way you look at it, labor kills. So I don't think you are out of line on the charges---but I would question what took him three days to do. One of the reasons I use steel tubing is it doesn't require the setup like aluminum, and I can finish it with my oxyacetlyene rig if I so choose (comfort level).
Suggest your fabricator use pre-bent mandrel bends like JeffP suggested. They are cheap from Burns Stainless (as well as several other places) and really cut down the charges for custom bending.
If they mandrel-bent the tubing all together, then that is another story, and the cost is right in line with what they charge out here.
Don't get discouraged. And relocate the boost sensing line for the turbo as stated---you have pressure drop now across the system (probably 1.5 to 2psi) so you will want to make up for it. Good luck on the project.
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well, at 15psi, the 2.8L is roughly 5.6 litres at 6500 rpm, so the 600cfm might be just about right.
That, and the fact that my old draw-through system would run 12.27 to 12.40 at about 17psi and it used a vacuum actuated holley 650....
When dealing with N/A applications, a Z will also effeectively use a 650 as we had one for a few passes at ElMirage, until we went to Webers which have a flow potential of 1100cfm, which is "way too much" anynway.
Theory goes out the window when racing is involved. Results are results.
Don't get hung on theory.
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there are myth progenitors out there still repeating the old "22% larger runners" on the turbo manifold.
B.S. they are all the same, except for one L-Intake, and it's not normally talked about in a performance board.
Take a look at the LD intake runners, and you will find a bigger runner.
But big runners are not necessarily what you want. Velocity is just as important as total flow, if not MORE important.
I don't think the size of the runner is that big of an issue on a Turbo motor below say 400HP (maybe 500hp...).
It think it's much ado about nothing.
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yer right, sleeper!
The number Tetsu used was 400hp. I'm not sure where the 600 number came from---maybe that was the NOS shot--It would not suprise me one bit if he had some ridiculous 200 shot for spool-up. The car had phenomenal accelleration, and amazing response.
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That S130 belongs to Tetsu Takakamo. It was at the National Z Car Convention in Las Vegas 2000.
It was a real hoot to ride in down Van Ness after returning from Vegas!
He will be returning for the 2004 Convention in L.A., but who knows WHAT he will bring this year. I'm sure it will be something good!
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Anything that will hold the pressure and temperatures involved will work.
I prefer the valve to be flange mounted, and teh blowoff line to the pre-turbine area to be a flexible hose. For years I used heater hose (good to 60psi and 250+ degrees) on that downstream section. Sparco makes some nice high-temp silicone stuff you could use now... Barring heater hose!
For the small signal line to the top of the valve, stiff fuel injection line is what I used (1/4" was the connection size on my valve) and later changed to Stainless steel braided because I got it cheap (like FREE)...
The DSM I believe is mounted on the OE Application by all flexible hoses, right? That would make mounting easy if space is tight, as you could run flexibles to wherever you had to place the valve.
I have another CART style valve I am working on for a plenum style manifold over six throttle plates. It is a pain to duct that one as it's a 360 degree discharge. For that, I probably will have to bite the bullet, and let everyone hear it when I shift!
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Yes, I heard. Bummer. This is incentive.
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And when you consider the increase over the STOCK motor, you are easily doubling a good stock L28, and almost tripling the HP of a decent L24 in stock trim.
Arguments could be made over "tuned" -vs- "tuned" but overall the increase is not just across the midrange for torque. If you are conparing and contrasting the differences between 3.0 and 3.1, than maybe it's valid, but it's STILL more where you can use it, so that alone is worth the effort for some people.
I mean, in Japan there was a custom crankshaft/rod/piston kit sold in the 80's that gave you a 3.5L L-Motor, and so far, I don't see anybody here with one of THOSE.
Would that only add to the confusion about which is best? For me, that would make it a REAL "350Z"!
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I will agree with ZR8ED, I think the 40's will be enough. Also the specs he listed:
145 main jet.
F16 emulsion tubes
195 air correctors
60 accelerator pump jets
55f9 idles
36mm chokes
Were almost identical to what we ran in the 45's! The only difference being we swapped to a 135 jet (from my street car) for the run at altitude at Bonneville.
Like John C posted, the GT spec calls for 50's, and with the 45's we had on the Bonneville car, the clear choice was 55's, but for the cost, we went with 45 TWM throttle bodies and TEC2 EFI.
What we did was pick up HP in the upper ranges (extended usable HP to over 8500rpm).
What I DID notice that suprised me was that the EFI had a somewhat "ragged" dyno curve, but the Weber curve was like someone took a felt-tip Sharpie Marker and drew a curve on the chart. Their atomization and power delivery is amazing. Even the dyno operator confessed he would have gotten the same HP we got from the EFI from the Webers (55's) but the ignition timing available from the Tec 2 gave us reliability, plus we could make adjustments in seconds with the laptop whereas changing mains in Webers to correct for altitude was kinda a pain...
Tuning of the Weber Carbs is a dying art. Many people just drive a car in a "good enough" state of tune. And when they ride or drive someone's vehicle who has taken the time to dial them right into the needs of the specific engine it's like night and day!
I have three sets of 45 Webers, what are they worth? One cannon manifold, one japanese manifold, one Skyline manifold (won't fit in a Z---DOH!) Maybe I should sell some of this stuff...
Oh, and I'll also add that there's still a dollar in my pocket for a stock-bodied Z without a G-Nose breaking 150mph with a 3-litre Six or smaller N/A motor....
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The blowoff MUST return in the section of hose BETWEEN the AFM and the Turbocharger inlet.
I replaced a section of hose with a metal pipe allowing my 1" blowoff hose to vonnect there.
If it's metered by the AFM, and is not dumped back into the metered area of the air system, you get rich stumbles to beat all hell.
Angle the piping so the blowoff is directed towards the turbine inlet, and ideally directed to spin the turbine in the direction it's supposed to be turning or you risk as premature compressor stall from trying to pinwheel the turbine in the reverse direction while rotating at high speed. Not good for airflow. The direction gets more important the higher the pressure you are running at. When you are blowing a 1" 15psi burst of air at the turbine, you can get a nice pre-spin for on-boost response if you engineer it all right!
Lets also consider the terminology here: the H-Car crowd has popularized the name "BOV" or "Blow-Off Valve". In the dark days, when turbos were not as responsive as we have today, it was called the Compressor Bypass Valve. This implied a dual function: During non-boost operations, vacuum in the intake manifold would open this valve, allowing N/A operation to bypass the turbine allowing it to pre-spin unloaded, and allowing a bigger inlet for the off-boost airflow and better off-boost drivability. When the boost would come on, the valve would close, and when the throttles snapped shut on-boost, the spike in vacuum would open the valve, allowing the bypass of compressed air out of the intake system in front of the throttles. It really shold sound more like a big "sigh" than a BOOM or WHHOOSH! The big sound is from stuff dumping in a very inefficient manner. I think Corky Bell made a nice big bypass valve for years---it "sighed" nicely if you even lifted your foot a little bit. Compressor response in a car so equipped was much better than without, or with a "hard pop" valve. So logic would dictate that kind of valve (which is what you are talking about) would HAVE to be (dumping the pressurized air) between the AFM and Turbine Inlet as it was simply a second intake tract to the throttlebody when off-boost, and therefore would need to have metered air in it for proper ECU response. It should go both ways depending on what mode of operation the engine is operating.
People have gotten into the idea that the valve is to just "dump" the excess pressure and get rid of it, but such is not the case.
MSS Resistors BAH!...Moby?
in Turbo / Supercharger
Posted
It would help if I revisited Lances FAQ page more often I think!
AND if I read Moby's post on the sticky where it plainly says "six ohm 25 watt resistors" DOH!
Yes, I just went out an verified that the STOCK BALLAST RESISTORS are 6.3 ohms. They have a connector with seven connections in it (at least off an 81 ZX) so I ahve one power to feed the injectors, and will split htem three and three on the way back to the ground at the 20 position terminal strip.
This will work well, as I am using stock components. The earlier vehicles I have seen use a funky 4+2 resistor pack, so I am pretty sure you can just hook the two power wires on that setup together to get a similar setup to the 81 Resistor Pack, with six resistive outputs to the injectors. Just like the stock setup---this lends me confidence...
I'm off to do more wiring. Thanks all!