Tony D
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Posts posted by Tony D
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In ram air or NA applications a simple pressure diffuser at the inlet to the box changes the incoming airflow to pressure distributing ambient pressure equally to all air horns.
Study the SU entrance on the later carbs! or even better the Z432 Airbox. We try to,rethink the wheel when these devices have already had countless OEM dyno-testing hours and Cubic Yen Spent on development!
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What does that mean? Is your odometer accurate for your gearing changes? Have you run a full tank out cruising on flat level ground at that 2,700 rpms and 15:1 AFR?Any ideas as to why I'm only getting 16mpg?
Also,
I use a 3.54 rear end with the S13 trans gearing.
I'd bet you get 22mpg at least. Driving at altitude can change mix 7% leaner with the altitude switch -- is yours functional? Driving in hills will kill mileage for sure.
Fill to a set point inside your filler neck, then take a run out US50, refill to the same point in Fallon-note your miles and gallons added. Drive back. Refill to the same point inside the filler neck again and note miles/gallons used again. It helps to use the same fuel stations.
If you have a GPS, use it to verify miles driven against odometer, as well as speed.
My bro-in-law complained of terrible mileage which was nothing but odo error. Added a 4.57 gearset to get his mudder so back to 3.70 and his mileage "miraculously" returned!
This usually comes down to calculation error. Go take a drive out to NAS Fallon and back...then see what you get... Steady speed...steady foot!
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I refer to Ford Inertia Switches as "yard entry compensation"... If you follow that.
I use a Ranger as it was the first time I encountered that floorboard location. I was more adept at snaring Tempo/Topaz units from the trunk, as with a wire cutter and a knife you can harvest close to 3' of wiring harness out of the trunk bundle making installation in other vehicles a snap!
I considered something near the Trans tunnel near the drivers side seat where the back package shelf meets, I think that would take a good poke to trip. It would be easy to reset from a hard jar without leaving the seat, which (as you will see below, was a valid concern...haha!) I was told almost anywhere securely bolted to the chassis is good, and it will trigger reliably in an impact.
I know when the Tempo/Topaz was in rental fleets it was a good joke to "bumper car" a fellow worker's rental car in the Hertz parking area and leave them stalled/stranded as you ran off to the jobsite! That was a little too sensitive for my tastes... But impressed me on switch functional reliability and repeatability for sure!
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The S30 (JDM) wiring diagrams have the electric fuel pump on them as it was used in that market. The body harnesses were similar, as noted above some are "universal" with lagged wires not used on either end of the circuit.
The service supplements give details not found in the basic FSM. It just occurred to me that when someone uses "FSM" they may literally mean just the big thick book, which as the OP spoke about "was an initial issue, before things were finalised" which triggered me that he didn't know about the supplements--as that is EXACTLY what the FSM is: "initial issue"... It in no way documents everything that was a production change after publication.
Those are the a Green Manuals, as well as that "Fuel System Modification" manual specifically for the troublesome EGR-Equipped Models.
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Reno, NV? Hot fuel vaporizing pre-pump causing loss of suction? I had that problem with a high-flow pump before I ran a sump. It was circulating so much fuel to the rails and back it heated up the tank and in combination with the low pressure before the pump it evaporated and caused vapor pockets which killed outflow.
Ya Reno NV. So its basically vapor locking? do you have any fuel pump suggestions. Could it be that my fuel pressure regulator is bad (doubt that it is due to the car running fine when its cold but who knows)
You have grossly oversimplified and changed what he said. What likely is happening is you are losing pump suction head, resulting in pump cavitation. That is NOT "vapor lock" despite being termed vapor pockets it's actually the process of cavitation boiling the fuel. The same thing happens in the water pump when it gets too hot and insufficient radiator cap pressure is present.
This happens in ANY Z-Car with an electric fuel pump and a bypass regulation system. Even at 80 F ambient five gallons in the tank will go to over 120 F in three to five dyno pulls! It gets worse as you run the tank lower.
The stock Z's have a vapor pressure buildup built into the tank...I forget the relief pressure to the EVAP canister, but it's at least 10" water column. This helps suppress the boiling point of the fuel, and creases inlet pressure on the pump to aid in preventing "flash cavitation" of the fuel and resultant loss of pressure and pumping capability of the pump. If the system leaks, this greatly decreases the pumps drawing/pumping ability.
This is considerably worse when it's winter and you get a hot day. Current fuel blends exacerbate this tendency.
What to do? Run a full tank of fuel on the dyno, or put a fuel cooler in to reject heat going back to an insufficient heat sink (a low tank!)
Make sure the cap is on, and the fuel tank is getting the requisite pressure from evaporating fuel--this will raise suction pressure to the pump helping to also prevent cavitation. If you suck air from an uncovered suction point (without surge tank, sump, swirl pot) obviously that kills everything as well.
Watch your fuel temperatures, above 120 WILL skew the density sufficiently to make the engine noticeably rich when at only 80 or even 60F! I call it "the moving point AFR curse of the five gallon racing gas syndrome dudes" JeffP was a chronic victim. His AFR's were changing with no changes in his pulse widths. His tank was tight, so he didn't cavitate as he did have pressure every time we opened the tank to add another five gallon can (he was using a submersed Z32 in-tank pump in proper swirl pot in his tank). New cool fuel, back pig rich. Readjust back to original map, five runs later leaning again....
Good Luck!
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You should be able to idle fine at 11:1 AFR without noticing anything amiss other than your AFR meter says it's 11:1.
At 10:1 you will start seeing black smoke out the tailpipe, but it should still idle smoothly but feel "loaded"... Missing occasionally after extended idling as the plugs load up.
At 9.6:1 it will start obviously pumping out black smoke and rich misfiring. You will smell raw gas in the exhaust.
It's nice to use AFR targets to tune towards... But really once the ECU is set with a baseline and good pulse width based tune with proper sensor trims... Where would you use this? Baro correction to enable closed loop under boost during a Hillclimb or mountain driving? I've heard of new fast-acting wbo2s that allow closed loop real time adjustment for OEM systems. It sounds nice and for current generation emissions compliance on engines that will abnormally wear during the compliance warranty period.
I'm questioning here to see why you would add these variables into the loop. The primary focus for tuning ANY EMS since day one was to turn all corrections off, and get your WOT and idle stabilised on a warm engine, then enable corrections one-by-one so that problems that arise can be pointed to definitively as arriving with the introduction of the new variable...
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Just an FYI, my last trip to PepBoys Speed Shop (designated performance parts stocking locations) had them with 3" SS V-Band clamps on the shelf.
So dumping flanges is as quick as stopping by your Local Pep Boys Speed Shop to pick up some V-Band stubs and clamp packaged assemblies on the way to your friendly TIG Welder to have some cutting, tacking, and welding done to rectify flat flanges.
JeffP used ball-socket connectors and not flat flanges save on his "first prototype"... Which was his comment: "that looks just like my first prototype system that I have up in the rafters of my garage!"
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If you're talking about it building boost up hills....I'm going to throw out your lugging the engine and expecting power from 1,000 up, and not like a normal Z at 3,000 up. Boost on the turbo with an A/R of .63 won't happen WOT in any gear before 2,500-3,000 rpms and if you are 13:1 AFR out of boost you are losing off-boost performance as well.
You really need to post a data log of a pull so we can see your MAP/RPM/Timing along with AFR... Timing should be normal at zero MAP or in vacuum and NOT start retarding until you are actually making boost of 2-3psi.
The 13's over 4,500 is not an issue, you have to pull fuel quite a bit to make horsepower past peak torque. 12.8 or so below there with a bit more fuel around torque peak...
Can you put the car into 3rd gear at 45 mph, go WOT and make a data logged pull to near redline?
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Yes, that is the key to COP, your coil saturation time...exactly as stated.
If you investigate the Z31 ECU Box logic for coil triggering it switches from "off - on - off" around 6200 rpms to a continuous "on" with off pulses. The spark from that box degrades above 6,200 on the single coil. You will notice the NISMO vehicles using single coils ran the Bosch Coil P/N used on the Porsche 930 Turbos. Highest Energy, and an extremely fast saturation time....what you need when running high rpms, single coil.
Mind you that the spark demands on Turbo Cars drive the COP decision far more than on N/A engines which have CONSIDERABLY lower flashover voltage requirements than the Turbo Combustion process demands.
In fact, even on the Electramotive TEC2 there was sensing circuitry to know discharge voltage/amperage of the previous firing cycle, and active management of coil saturation even on multiple coil setups. This could mean the difference between your ignition system drawing 5-9A as opposed to 15-20A from coil overcharging.
I don't want to oversimplify the ignition system....but for the street, a lot of this stuff in the OEM Market was driven by emissions requirements that just happens to have a performance payout as well. To a point the single coil is simple, reliable, and more than robust enough to handle pretty radical N/A builds, and even Turbo Builds if you keep it below 6,500 (930 Turbo as no slouch!)
For 85-90% of the guys out there that's really going to be all they really "need"....
Get into stuff like TimZ or JeffP cranking out 200HP/Litre+ with forced induction???and JeffP can tell you all about how a single coil falls short. Even in Japan in the 80's, they were running triple conventional coils off a distributor gear driven trigger. The trigger really isn't the issue, if you can get the resolution. The 123 is Optical (as was the ZXCAS 82/83 on) so the trigger resolution may well be sufficient to about 12,000 rpms (6,000 rpm trigger speed) in that environment, with current electronics.
Remember the Z32 CAS is camshaft mounted, optical trigger firing COP! Not much different from a distributor trigger firing COP there in terms of slop and jumping about.
The coil saturation and wether you need it is the first question to ask... If you're magnetic/hall sensor then likely a crank trigger of large diameter will help if you are going above 8,500. For an optical, a half-speed drive from distributor or camshaft seems to trigger them just fine to 12,000 rpms. Trigger selection seems to bias towards optical since the triggering is more precise to higher rpms with smaller diameters making retrofit easier.
I digress, and ramble extensively....
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Get with Dave and get his recommendations... Yeah there's a lot of "talk" out there that guides people, but the reality is the "couple grand up front" pays for the hard parts...and for a shop owner that means money they aren't out so they can keep the lights on! Especially if they're bought through them so they make a little on markup...
I took business from my former employer because they put THE US NAVY on "credit hold"... They needed serious work on two machines, I wrote the stipulation in the service contract that the work would commence upon them buying the parts in advance. They accepted it... Some $60,000 paid to us up front for about $35,000 in our-cost parts. That made life for out little company MUCH easier not having to shell out our ENTIRE cash reserve to buy parts for a job that we wouldn't get paid for four more months or so...
Ended up lots of add-on work was necessary (consisting mostly of labor) which ended up invoiced daily to a CREDIT CARD meaning instant payment to US of $3,000 daily! Everything was "$3,000" at that point. We ended up billing 60k in parts, $24,000 in additional credit card purchases, plus a flat rate labor charge for two men and four weeks labor of $40,000.... With ZERO outlay other than technicians salaries, lodging and living expenses. It really helped the cash flow situation. And that's where you get "the few grand up front." Same as any shop, once the parts are bough and paid for UP FRONT (especially if you have margin on the parts) it's a zero sum game...you have enough money in your kitty for some prelim machine work...and really your final billing is labor...you get paid when it's all done. Since no money is out of your pocket, most guys can wait to get paid...especially if it's not costing them anything!
I digress...
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Yes, what you describe -- that's the stock setup. It's detailed in the green supplemental manual for the 240z. I had all that, but tore it out and tossed it in lieu of a more direct wiring like in a modern vehicle.
If you don't want the Datsun Complexity, you simply get the inertial switch from any Ford vehicle (I stole mine from a wrecked Ranger's passenger footwell under the floor mat) I bolted it into the floorboard same as in the Ford Ranger I took it from, and merely extended the wire out of the fuse box to hook through it.
Running out to a 280Z oil pressure switch seems a pain to kill the pump on an engine stall. Hard impact or rollover is one thing. I never liked the oil pressure switch idea as I've seen crashes so hard the throw the car into neutral, and then deformation pins the throttle around 2,000-4,000 rpms....nothing in the original system will kill the power to the fuel pump in that instance...an inertial switch from a Ford will--I would highly suggest you implement an inertial retrofit into YOUR circuitry as I have SEEN what happens when the engine does not stall! More than once, in fact. Ford's switch is VERY good at what it does, and is easily resettable without having to fire the engine first to reprime dry float bowls after maintenance.
If you don't have the supplemental manuals for your vehicle, you are using half the information available.
There is ABSOLUTELY no mention of a "2+2" in the 260Z manual...yet one exists. To get wiring and servicing information you need the "Green Supplemental Manual" they came out mid year to update the original FSM with regular production line changes.
If this is the first you've heard of these manuals, this may be part of the misunderstanding previously.
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I'm glad that was clarified as something appeared lost in the translation.
You can spend $10K there, but unless your making a turnkey complete package tested race motor, you won't get close to $10K.
What you posted is in-line with what others have paid, and is not much more than for a competently-built stock rebuild with a similar warranty support package would have.
The myth of the slapped together $1,500 stroker persists from people searching 20year old Internet builds (sometimes totally disregarding they seemed to be "rebuilt" every 10,000 miles or so...)
You can spend the money once, or let it bleed you continually over the years. I like the one-payment and drive setup myself! Good luck in the process.
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Most of your manuals are available free online to,download from xenons130 site.
The Hawaiian ZCC is a viable entity....I think. There are Z Guys there on island who may be able to give you firsthand pointers.
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I did not pee in the Metro...hidden from view in some subterranean cavern...
I pissed on the Paris Opera House.
In fact, when watching "Phantom of the Opera" in the theatre, I recognised my spot and excitedly stated "HEY! I pissed on that place!"
My permutation of "Been there, done that!"
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I did not say anything was wrong with it, just that MS1 worked fine for me (and the OP) and it was just a question about evaluating "why" the change was made.
Forging ahead without evaluating the reasons "why" seems foolish. If the MS2 box is not giving you anything you need other than the "me too" factor, and your MS1 was working fine....why waste your life's time fixing something for no gain?
I'd vote to sell the issue to someone else I that case and go back to driving and enjoying the vehicle!
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It's not an SK surge Box, it's a fabricated unit made here in the USA as a "semi replica" whatever that means.
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If it was OBD2 ECU, I'd say stick with something like Tunercat. But the original MS was constructed off the GM Coding with on the fly tuning in mind...so it's a nice simple update to power that old TBI unit. It's nice to run 15 psi....
Speaking of that, there are GM TBI adapters for the stock SU Bodies as well. www.pattonmachine.com
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My issue was between 0-3psi. Cruise it would transiently go lean. Coughs and pops. More foot and it went to 3psi and it smoothed out and pulled fine.
It was chasing that lean at a specific rpm and different throttle positions....
"Shift Ctrl, arrow up"
"Shift Ctrl, arrow up"
Timing suspect?
Click, Shift Ctrl Arrow Up, Up, Up....
All I'm saying, besides "BWAhahaha!" Sorry...that's not helping but "those who say "carbs are easy" have never really tried tuning them!"
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Knock, knock. Who's there? Engine.
That's way overstating it. Way.
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I actually hooked up my electric fuel pump exactly as was described in the wiring diagram...just added the fused pigtail to match the mating connector lagged in the harness below the dash!
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That has nothing to do wit it...all you have defined is the stock Datsun gauges are inaccurate.
Wow, whoodathunkit? You don't say????
I've seen 240's do exactly the same thing. Why is the FIRST answer to EVERY overheating post "have you verified your actual temp with a meat thermometer?"
Please the definitive statement in your post. It is in error. If you go check the thermal sending pairs, you will see they are identical between the two senders in question. If you plot the actual difference in displayed temperature, the skew is less than 20 ohms, and that can be attributed to wiring losses in some cars! It's not 80-vs-120 different though!
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It's 1 compression point. It's not that big a deal. Especially at stock boost levels.
It's a non-sequitur. -
I've been abroad from 84-89 (Japan) and then again from 2003-Present (Greater Asia-Pacific) 90-2000 just got me in LA to watch the Rodney Riots and unchecked illegal influx crap the region terribly. I kinda wish I'd stayed abroad that intervening period...
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Sadly, Chief Clancy Wiggum of the Springfield PD is a stereotype for a reason...
If you can scope out the buyer and notice his buddy has a nice new spoiler on his Z that just happens to be in primer... Or he has a 'roller' out back with a bunch of new parts in boxes he just got "from the junkyard"...
Case is not 'closed' if the car is recovered stripped. That means there is a conspiracy of sorts working and LAPD has a SPECIAL TASK FORCE which handles that. You start reporting you know of places with stolen vehicle parts (especially items with SERIAL NUMBERS such as the engine block....) and you get their attention.
Additionally, if you had done the engine swap legally, and reported the swap and engine number to the DMV then that engine serial number is on "the Hot Sheet" and even five or six years later they WILL attempt to notify the owner of the property if it is recovered. If they call you to a place and you start identifying stuff you know is yours, and even have the scantest of evidence (nice photos of it installed in your car and photos of how it was left after recovery) you stand a GREAT case for getting the property released to you!
This was the case with MotorEx and the Skylines some years ago, the Task Force Detective was really active in contacting the community to hunt down possible owners and get their stuff back to them.
If you abdicate this totally to the police and don't do your own work on some of it....you will get nothing. It likely will go in a file. The guys that do this don't just do it once for their car and stop. This is something they do in an ongoing.enterprise. Even if you don't get your stuff back, if you help nail the bastards maybe someone else can skip the pain you have endured because they're in no shape to do it again.
I've managed to go to each car seller's house for the vehicles I've bought here in PI. I marked it on GPS and then downloaded it to a file on my laptop which is cloud backed up. Something fishy goes down at DMV (LTO) I know where to come knockin' in person to get it straightened out!
Air box design - Weber/Mikuni w/horns
in Nissan L6 Forum
Posted · Edited by Tony D
The other post suffered from inadvertent postbuttonitis before I got these attached.
Yes, there are SU-Style Airhorns inside. Filter element is is secondary canister on the side.
So let's not reinvent the wheel here, it's been done!
The Bling Factor of something fabricated looking exactly like something the OEM might have designed is not to be overlooked, either!