zredbaron

Bump. Glad to see that all of my hard work wasn't out too lunch and that someone else has had the same experience / reached the same conclusions as I have. I'm still curious as to why your experience was different than ours. You don't happen to have the exact model of your gauge, do you? I'd like to call AutoMeter and see if the guts are identical... Anyone else out there attempt this install? Which result did you have? (Gauge model numbers would be helpful!) I'd really like to get to the bottom of this...

Exactly what I was imagining... something a Quaife in the rear would no doubt only worsen while it tried to figure out where to bias the torque (and while my heavy foot tries to figure out the proper pedal position for the turn). Haha, oops. Experimentation is of course in order, but thanks to the pointed responses in these threads it definitely sounds like a tad more droop limitation up front (relative to the rear) and minimal droop limiting in the rear (until the springs are no longer loose at full droop) may be the ideal "tune" for our application. Really looking forward to messing with this. I'll be sure and post my cable implementation when the time comes.

By ditching the droop limiters for the helper springs, wouldn't you lose the anti-roll benefits of the droop limiters completely? Forgive my lack of having read the referenced suspension books, but why would you consider intentionally letting your car roll (and giving up camber) so that you could have a better frequency? From what little I understand of ride frequency, a faster frequency means the suspension will more quickly dampen any movement encountered. What I'm getting hung up on, is that in a steady state sweeping turn that frequency is less relevant and the loss of anti-roll is brutal due to camber loss. Obviously there is a trade-off? Your car was quite flat and very responsive to steering changes in the external videos you posted. What is it about your handling that you don't like / leads you to contemplate ditching the droop limiters for helpers?

Very well. Thanks! Now that I'm rethinking it under a different light, I also would think that limiting the rear droop too much would inhibit the ability to put power down while exiting a turn. Right or wrong? EDIT - I wasn't sure which thread this belonged in either, so I went with the one titled "making droop limiters" despite that this post might be more relevant to the most recent posts of the other thread.

Hint: see post #23 of this thread: The third link talks about about some of the how and whys. Senior members, correct me if I'm wrong, but here's what I've learned from studying up on the topic: When a spring is compressed on track, an ARB transfers load from one tire to the other, which reduces the tractive capacity of the pair. An ARB renders independent suspension less independent, because the two wheels are tied together via a torsion bar. Achieving anti-roll via droop limiters has neither disadvantage. Droop limiters are used in addition to ARBs, not in lieu of. If you read up on droop itself there are plenty of articles out there that discuss why droop is bad. It's even worse on the S30's antiquated suspension design because our camber changes so much as the wheel travels vertically (in an arc) due to having a single control arm vice dual.

I think you're right in that I've neglected to consider that it's still under load while it's encountered, and therefore won't have an opportunity to snap (to the degree I was imagining), even if a pothole were encountered. You're right! Both of those sites were offering parts for buggys. Thanks Jon. I think I've made it obvious by now that I tend to overthink things / fixate on a certain aspect...

Thanks for the links! Now I need to decide if I want to bolt in the upper attachment point or weld it in. I noticed Jon bolted his into the side of the shock tower. I wouldn't think that would be strong enough...? Jon, did you put a reinforcement plate in there that I didn't see? Seeing manufactured droop limiters that are straps only confirms my suspicion that *slight* flex is preferred. I'm thinking for ultra-light, open-wheel cars rigid is fine, but for production cars with 500+ lbs. at each corner, *slight* force absorption is in order. From a previous conversation: I'm not sure I follow Jon's logic. If you were to set the droop at zero the spring would never be unloaded, the limiters would still be bearing the weight at that corner of the car once the tire were off the ground, as it would be holding the spring loaded, right? I thought that was the whole point. If that were to happen suddenly, that would be a lot of abrupt structural stress that would also be felt transmitted to the tires. Bad for wear, bad for performance if you're approaching maximum G loading of the tires doing the grunt work, possible including the tire being limited since it may or may not have left the ground. If I'm barking up the wrong tree, please help me understand why!

Which companies? Google isn't turning anything up for the searches I tried. Also, why is it standard to have rigid droop limiters? I understand that instant engagement leads to instant response just like almost every other suspension component, but I wouldn't think that a tow strap for example flexes enough to be detrimental to performance. I would think that an "ever so slight" flex would be somewhat beneficial because it would be smoother engagement, and well, smooth is fast. I'm probably overthinking it? I'm absolutely willing to accept that rigid is better, I'd just like to fully understand why.

Great thread! I have a couple of questions. Why has limiting droop to 1" been mentioned more often than zero droop? I thought that zero droop was ideal, but I'm getting the sense that allowing a controlled amount of droop is more practical. Which is it and why? 74_5.0L_Z, You recognized the lack of comparison, but I didn't see where you came back and compared no droop limiters to droop limiters back to back on the same course on the same day. Did you? If so, I would think you would also want to compare zero droop to 1/2" droop to 1" droop, etc. Has anyone "tuned" the amount of allowable droop? I would think that's something you'd want to dial in just like every other suspension component...

slick! (thanks jon)

Oh, and MaTTSuN, please please PLEASE don't ever post such a hi-res pic again! Even with a fast internet connection (and a MacBook Pro), it really effects the way this page loads and scrolls now. There's a reason this is a repeat complaint by members and admins. That said, beautiful parts. You have every reason to be proud!

Thanks Mike! Really good feedback to hear. I assume more responsive in the corners means both increased lateral g stability (over bumps) and of course the ability to put *and* keep more power to the asphalt? Sorry to bug you... I just don't like leaving any room for interpretation or doubt! I'm 100% sold on going low-friction fully adjustable LCAs, now I just need to finalize if I'm going with ArizonaZ's design or not. The only concern I have with their design is the pivot point is now ~1" outward, and I don't yet know what that means in terms of geometry...

Don't waste any time searching for it, by all means. I was just curious to see it if you happen to know exactly where the pic is. I have other pics that I will likely base my reinforcement on, so no sweat if it's not worth your time...

Any chance you'd be willing to repost this image, Jon? I assume this is an image of version 2, not version 1 with the loose washers...

Agreed! I discovered that too. The above results via HybridZ's search engine were initiated while the browser was currently displaying the list of all forums. FWIW.

Many users have no doubt probably already figured this out, but I have only recently resorted to google. Case in point, I recently had a hard time finding the jmortensen's "Bumpsteer FAQ." At the time, I was adamant that HybridZ's search engine didn't find it at all. Now, when attempting to duplicate, it shows up as like the 15th result, and now when I type it in, it goes right to the thread. Weird. (Is HybridZ self aware, too? LOL) To the point, if you type in "bump steer faq" (i.e. with a space), you get nothing. The easiest solution is google.com! If you type "hybridz bumpsteer faq" or "hybridz bump steer faq" into google, it's the first result. Search woes solved... if the HybridZ search function isn't giving you love, try google before starting a new post!

I tried searching for the thread name directly and the search feature didn't find it at all... took me 30 mins before I found this thread with the link! Haha...

Here's the bumpsteer FAQ in case anyone else's search button hates them as much as mine does...?

Great tips! I'll definitely read up. Thanks Jon!

You'll have to forgive me, Jon, I'm one of the many HybridZ guys that doesn't know anything until I've actually upgraded it! (I'm trying to upgrade / learn about low-friction LCAs, etc. at the moment) ...are you saying that bumpsteer *begins* after the strut moves up 1/2" above where the strut sits at rest when the car is on its own weight?

He did, thanks! Also, in case anyone had the same question I did regarding relocation of the front LCA pivot point, according to johnc: 'I move the hole up 3/4" and out 1/4".' Cool! I did a quick search, but I don't think I'm typing in the right key words... I did find this page, though: http://forums.hybridz.org/index.php/topic/60730-hybridz-custom-suspension-design-thread/page__hl__%2Bsla+%2Bfront+%2Bsuspension__st__20 Cool pics, but mostly just experiments. I'd like to see / read about what the GT2 guys are *actually* running on the track!

Great thread! V8RACER260Z, very nice project putting in the C4 suspension! Ever finish the project? Bob, do you have any pics of this shell? Did you ever finish the project? I'm one of the "just buy the kit" types (vice designing and fabricating it myself), also running XP.... JohnC, time to fabricate an all-out setup meeting your list of requirements! Oh, and if you can make it anywhere as light as your Ultra-Light Racing Suspension, I'll be the first to pre-order!

Agreed, but at least it lead to me ordering the Z-select alternator bracket! Success, assuming I hear back from that email address! Haha, confusing indeed... Thanks.

Google isn't turning up any satisfactory results for the "z select" brand of LCAs and TC rods... anyone have a link? I'd like to check out their designs... (Am I just being retarded?)

az240z, If you read this post from start to finish, you'll find that the above two posts are confirmations of advice already given in this thread (plus a few extra details of course) and that your questions and other members' responses are beginning to talk in circles. The above two posts properly redirect you to posts/documentation that have covered your questions in great detail. Start with the L6 sticky threads, they're each a sticky for good reasons. Your head questions are covered in more detail than you could ever reasonably hope for. Some sticky threads are from newbies that have asked the right questions and received enough detailed answers that the thread became a sticky, and some are from the experts in an attempt to provide a one-stop consultation guide for a specific topic given the overwhelming number of repeat questions. I second RTz that the search engine will very easily help you find what you're looking for if one of the sticky threads doesn't cover it. You're at the point where you need to consciously *decide* "how much power you want to spend," and what flavor that power has. We can't do your homework for you, *BUT* when you've done your *all* of your homework and still have a question or two, come back to this thread or start a new one (as appropriate). (I'm not flaming on you, please don't take it as such.)