Mobious9 Posted May 22, 2011 Share Posted May 22, 2011 Hey everyone, I'm putting my engine back together and I want to make sure Im going to go about this the right way. Heres the story till this point.. I bought this blue 83 5spd with a blown head gasket, i managed to get it to run before taring it doing to cycle through and change the bad fluids. The jack-leg i bought it from had no thermostat or cylinder head temp sensor in it and drove it hot. The blue one has 258,000 miles on it. The primed auto 82 was my daily driver until i drove it into a ditch during a tornado we had in north carolina. It flooded out and now it not working. Just my luck haha. That car had 170,000 miles on it. This is where i am so far... I decided to rip anything that was good left in the grey car and put it in the blue one, which was nothing. Either way, a head needed to be decked and put on the blue car so i opted for the one with less miles (primed flooded car) and i sent the head off to get cleaned, decked, and valve stems replaced. Well the head it done, but this is where it gets kinda sticky.. The head on the primed car is going on the blue car,,, but when i to the original head off the blue car the block looked like this... Simply put, the block and new head do not match and neither are at top dead center. So what exactly do I do to get everything aligned and running good? short of taking off the front plate if i dont have to. Thanks! and Sorry for the length i wanted to put in as much detail as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burninator Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 I don't think you can be sure without taking off the front plat and looking for the shiny links on the timing chain. I did something similar and took one engine apart for a head gasket change without intending to replace the head so we just marked the head where we took it off and found the head to be too far gone to be useful. I got a new head but didn't know how the old one came out so we just set the block and head to TDC. Without realizing it we put it back together with the head and block 180 degrees out of synch and the only way it will run now is with the spark plugs all swapped 180 degrees on the distributor. I'll fix it when I get time, but was on a timeline trying to make a race. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewZed Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 (edited) It's probably possible to turn the engine over by hand, while holding the chain in place (get a helper), to bring the #1 piston to the top. If your timing mark is at zero and the rotor is pointing at the number one plug terminal in the cap then the block's #1 piston is at TDC, ready for ignition. Then turn the camshaft so that the #1 cylinder valves are both closed, put the head on and make the fine adjustment to the camshaft to line up the marks properly. The hardest part would be turning the engine over by hand while holding the chain on. Edited May 23, 2011 by NewZed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mobious9 Posted May 24, 2011 Author Share Posted May 24, 2011 I don't think you can be sure without taking off the front plat and looking for the shiny links on the timing chain. I did something similar and took one engine apart for a head gasket change without intending to replace the head so we just marked the head where we took it off and found the head to be too far gone to be useful. I got a new head but didn't know how the old one came out so we just set the block and head to TDC. Without realizing it we put it back together with the head and block 180 degrees out of synch and the only way it will run now is with the spark plugs all swapped 180 degrees on the distributor. I'll fix it when I get time, but was on a timeline trying to make a race. thanks, I have a feeling I'm heading in the same direction if im not careful but it might be unavoidable. I keep hearing the same words "you might as well replace ..." since im down there haha. more work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mobious9 Posted May 24, 2011 Author Share Posted May 24, 2011 It's probably possible to turn the engine over by hand, while holding the chain in place (get a helper), to bring the #1 piston to the top. If your timing mark is at zero and the rotor is pointing at the number one plug terminal in the cap then the block's #1 piston is at TDC, ready for ignition. Then turn the camshaft so that the #1 cylinder valves are both closed, put the head on and make the fine adjustment to the camshaft to line up the marks properly. The hardest part would be turning the engine over by hand while holding the chain on. NICE!! this is good news, so make sure BOTH #1 valves are closed on the head and the #1 cylinder is TDC.... seems simple enough haha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macambra Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 NICE!! this is good news, so make sure BOTH #1 valves are closed on the head and the #1 cylinder is TDC.... seems simple enough haha Save yourself the hassle and pull the timing cover. If that chain has lost tension you will have to do it anyway. It's better to be safe than sorry. Don't do the job twice. Just make sure that you install the cover PRIOR to tightening and torquing the head. If you don't it can be a seious pain and it will always leak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mobious9 Posted May 24, 2011 Author Share Posted May 24, 2011 @ Macambra, can all this be done while the black is in the car? I've been following haynes and FSM's but their both really jumpy. So radiator, fan and crank pully comes out, then i should be able to take the front plate off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zx_drift Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 You can definitely do it in the car. Once you get the crank pulley, dizzy, oil pump and water pump out you just pull all the 10mm bolts out of the cover. There are also a few down below that bolt the oil pan to the timing cover so you have to get underneath for those. But it will definitely save you the huge hassle of trying to line up the crank gear with the cover still on (if it's even possible). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Pull the hood, front bumper, and radiator and sit cross-legged in front of it...like working at a bench, perfect height! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tec280zx Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Pull the hood, front bumper, and radiator and sit cross-legged in front of it...like working at a bench, perfect height! Yep, that what doing right now. Got everything out of the way so I can dig in tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mobious9 Posted June 3, 2011 Author Share Posted June 3, 2011 Thanks for all the help guys, this where i am now.. I have the block at TDC and the lower timing notch at zero With that out of the way, I got my head back and reinstalled the cam and sprocket. I need to know if this is correct or not, does everything look good? Are the #4 and #5 valves supposed to be the only ones open at TDC? I put the rocker arms back on first, then installed the cam and pedestals but have not torqued them yet. thanks everyone! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stretchnuts Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 (edited) Believe so, easiest way to make sure your head is at TDC is to align the "-" notch on the thrust plate with the grove "u" on the backside (cam side) of the camshaft gear. At this point the int/exh lobes should be in that "V" position where they are both angled upwards, just like you have pictured. Looks to be pretty close. Thats how I timed mine when I got my head rebuilt. Hope this helps. Edited June 3, 2011 by stretchnuts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSM Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 I thought for sure there was a complete overhead pick of the valves when #1 was set at TDC in the FSM but I couldn't find it. Anyway cut and pasted this togehter: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mobious9 Posted June 3, 2011 Author Share Posted June 3, 2011 Thanks JSM and Stretchnuts, that clears things up with the cam because at first I had the number one lobe pointing straight up and both valves were close. ( And i was assuming that was TDC) Your photo was helpful to because the FSM has no good illustrations. I also repositioned the distributor at TDC SO the stage is set but i had one last question before i go torquing everything back together. Why are the #2 small valve and #3 big valve open?? while everything is at TDC, or are they supposed to be open? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSM Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 If the Cam is set correctly and the head is assembled correctly and you have it set at TDC #1 it likely just means the valve is open because the Cam is letting in the Fuel/Air mix for cylinder two. I've been here before myself. It is best to completely start from scratch as others have suggested. The lesson learned is before disassembling the head, set it at TDC #1. You can download all the FSM from http://www.xenons30.com/ that is where I pulled the pics from. You can also lightly put it all together; just snug the head bolts don't torque them and carefully rotate the entire assembly from the crank nut a specific # of turns. This way you can go back easily to double check everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mobious9 Posted June 4, 2011 Author Share Posted June 4, 2011 (edited) If the Cam is set correctly and the head is assembled correctly and you have it set at TDC #1 it likely just means the valve is open because the Cam is letting in the Fuel/Air mix for cylinder two. I've been here before myself. It is best to completely start from scratch as others have suggested. The lesson learned is before disassembling the head, set it at TDC #1. You can download all the FSM from http://www.xenons30.com/ that is where I pulled the pics from. You can also lightly put it all together; just snug the head bolts don't torque them and carefully rotate the entire assembly from the crank nut a specific # of turns. This way you can go back easily to double check everything. thanks lol i was hoping I'd be able to slap this thing together tomorrow and it run fine again. As you guys can see, Im doing everything i can to avoid taking more stuff off with my limited knowledge BUT it looks like there's no other way haha SO CLOSE! Edited June 4, 2011 by Mobious9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSM Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 It's worth it. You will learn a lot, realize how simple it really is and know it is done right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mobious9 Posted June 5, 2011 Author Share Posted June 5, 2011 ... I put everything back on and torqued the head back on, everything lined up perfectly except i couldn't get the cam sprocket over the dowel. which leads me to believe i jumped a tooth, so ive been working on removing all the bolts on the cover. Can i take it off with the head on?? talk about leaning haha after this i'll probably be able to do this with my eyes closed haha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mobious9 Posted June 5, 2011 Author Share Posted June 5, 2011 ... I put everything back on and torqued the head back on, everything lined up perfectly except i couldn't get the cam sprocket over the dowel. which leads me to believe i jumped a tooth, so ive been working on removing all the bolts on the cover. Can i take it off with the head on?? talk about leaning haha after this i'll probably be able to do this with my eyes closed haha I got this far today before i realized the chain had slack and may have jumped a tooth. Now im trying to pull the front cover with out having to pull the head again after its been torqued on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSM Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 It's all good. You just like to do things the hard way! It's very likely the chain tensioner spring and or block has moved out of place and causing you to not have slack. I don't think you should have to untorque the head. I guess you will find out when you got to pull the cover! It is always best to snug the head bolts, put it all back together, check everything and then torque! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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