LanceVance Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 (edited) Recently I was with some buddies of mine who like to go paint balling on their off time, and they were discussing the use of N2O filled tanks over CO2. This got me thinking that given the similar characteristics between the two, that the tanks might be interchangeable, and I might even be able to use a paintball tank for a home built N2O injection system. After doing a little research it seems like that thinking would be correct, but I really don't know much about nitrous injection so I figured I would ask here. One of the things that always turned me off about nos kits was the markup on what seemed to be a few standard fittings and a pretty paint job on a less than special aluminum bottle. If I can get away with just buying the solenoid and spray nozzles specific to N2O use, I imagine I should be able to get a working kit going for much less than a kit with a purple bottle... Is this line of thinking completely off? Would this just be a disaster waiting to happen? As we speak there is a N2O specific tank made for paintball listed for under $20 on craigslist here that is calling my name. Thanks for everyone's input in advance! If it matters, this would be going on an L28ET with MS. Not looking to make crazy power with nos, just do a few passes on the quarter mile a few times a year. Edited November 21, 2011 by LanceVance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_journeyman Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 Just be aware there is a lot more to running a NOS system than just squirting the N20. JM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
letitsnow Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Yup, like squirting it at the right time with the right amount of additional fuel. MS can take care of all of that with little issue. I just bought a used dry kit for $70 locally, I'm thinking about setting up a nitrogen push system(think NANO kit) using a paintball HPA tank and some AN fittings, but that's a little different than filling a co2 tank. I'm not sure you'll find someone to fill a co2 tank with n2o, the vapor pressures are close, but n2o is a bit higher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seattlejester Posted December 27, 2011 Share Posted December 27, 2011 Sorry not sure if you are still curious, but I'm quite bored and I feel I may be able to shed some light as I have experience in many of the aspects needed to answer the question and have contemplated this as well. I apologize for the complete history, overload of information, etc. N2O-referred to as Nitrous Oxide, NOS (brand name of nitrous injection maker, popularized by fast and the furious franchise), laughing gas, or Nitrous N2-nitrogen, exists as a diatomic molecule N2 in atmosphere, can be compressed to very high pressures without condensing into liquid O2-oxygen, similar property as N2, except that liquid oxygen is highly explosive, and at increased pressures can cause explosions with the addition of any small organic matter. CO2-similar characteristics as N2O, in that it is liquid above 800psi, used in fire extinguishers and paintball. Nitrous Oxide in cars: I'm not sure how familiar you are with nitrous, but nitrous works because of it's chemical make up, N2O. By mass nitrous oxide provides ~ 16/44 or 36% oxygen, while the regular earth atmosphere provides ~20%, thus combining the increased presence of oxygen with additional fuel you can in essence burn more fuel per stroke, similar to a larger displacement engine thus more power. Nitrous oxide is also a liquid at pressures higher than 850 psi, thus the liquid converts to gas as the vapor is drawn from the tank, allowing for a relatively large amount of steadily regulated pressure to be present for a given mass of N2O. Thus when you get a nitrous tank filled they usually charge you by the pound not the PSI. Due to it's hilarious nature (laughing gas ) N2O for automotive use is usually combined with another non reactive compound so it cannot be used for recreational purposes. Nitrogen in Paintball: Nitrogen came onto the paintball scene a while back in the 90's thanks to Airgun designs president, Tom Kaye. Previously all markers had used CO2, due to it's wide spread availability, available at most fire departments or fire extinguisher stores, due to the same characteristic as N2O, liquid at pressures above 800 psi, self regulating. Unfortunately due to CO2's frigid nature, this caused difficulty with rubber o-rings (they would shrink a great deal) and as liquid converted to gas it would absorb heat from the exterior of the container, slowing the process, thus the advent of the more friendly, faster charging N2 aka HPA tank. The first tank designed was called a nitrogen tank as it was mostly filled with atmospheric nitrogen ~70%? maybe more and gained the terminology, in reality the nitrogen tanks used in paintball today are filled using a compressor to compress the atmosphere. This gained a lot of popularity as higher end markers could be made with easier to machine metals that weren't as effected by the frigid nature and could use more advanced designs with more sealed passages in a given mechanism and markers could achieve much higher firing rates with faster more stable recharges. The benefit of weight is also a bonus, as filling a N2 tank or (HPA tank as they are sometimes called) will not increase that mass to a significant degree (N2 and O2 don't become liquid until much higher pressures), while a 20oz co2 tank would yield a 20oz increase per fill. While paintball tanks are rated for ~5000psi in the carbon fiber variety, as N2O is measured in pounds, the benefit of the increased pressure vs size is lost. So to answer your question a N2/HPA tank would be just about as useful as a co2 tank or nitrous oxide tank of similar size in providing a system for nitrous, except that it may fail during the fill process (CO2 is filled by employing a 2 way valve, most HPA tanks are filled using a nipple located on the side). However, if one were determined one may possibly be able to employ a CO2 tank to run a very limited nitrous setup, the benefit would be that a system could probably be built for 50~60$ as paintball parts are very easy to come by used, although filling it may prove to be a challenge. And to my knowledge a 10 lb tank of nitrous oxide will net 5 10 second passes with a bottle warmer so a 20oz paintball tank (the largest they come in) would yield only one pass, only useful as a sneaky pete type setup. Off track: So if you are really bored, you may contemplate a way to use the benefit of High Pressure instead of liquid gas, and the way to employ that would be to charge an intake tube as a turbo charger does, or to run high pressured air through the turbocharger hot side. The benefit would be room temp or colder charged air available at ones finger tips, and no need for an exhaust manifold, but upon doing the math I'm sure this system would also only work on a limited basis due to the volume requirement, even if it sufficed to work for a given amount of time, a paintball compressor costs many thousands for a quick system. Interestingly enough, the creator of the N2 tank, Mr. Kaye, recently released an affordable booster setup for home use under 500$ just a few years ago. The most bang for your buck would probably come from liquid Oxygen tank, but due to its highly explosive nature this kind of setup will most likely never come into existence, for instance if a bug managed to crawl into a fitting and was missed, the small amount of organic matter, coupled with high pressure oxygen, would spontaneously combust generating an explosion directly attached to an oxidant and most likely near a fuel source. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 I often found after balling paint the cleanup was excessive. I chose to stick with sheep afterwards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noddle Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 (edited) I chose to stick with sheep afterwards. are you a "closet kiwi" by any chance ? Edited December 30, 2011 by Noddle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 (edited) 40,000,000 Dating opportunities and no worrying about the bleating if you can't call the next day! Edited December 30, 2011 by Tony D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josh817 Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 From what I remember when I use to play paintball. CO2 tanks were rather low pressure and Nitrogen tanks were high pressure, lasted longer, etc. They were also nice because they didn't freeze up your gun when you were shooting. CO2 would literally freeze the bolt solid and have ice falling off of the gun if you kept shooting at a high rate. In any case, using a nitrogen tank, I don't see why not; except even the biggest tanks may be too small for a car application, then you may not find someone who will fill it, lastly they usually come with regulators on them which may not regulate to where you want it. Typical tank sizes off the top of my head, for a big tank, is 90 cubic inches @ 4500PSI. Things have gotten cheap since I have played. Would have been nice when I was barely making any money to play! http://www.actionvillage.com/paintball/tanks-tank-acc/compressed-air-hpa/ninja-paintball-tanks/ninja-carbon-fiber-air-tank-w-ultralite-regulator-90-4500.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 The tank is not the expensive part of the system, trying to economise there is.... Uh.... Suicidal! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
letitsnow Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 A long run of -4 SS AN line, the solenoids, and the switches to make a safe system are the pricey parts, don't cheap out on the bottle. N2O is stored in a liquid form, you can't store an appreciable amount more by attempting to increase the tank pressure above the vapor pressure, that's like trying to compress liquid water, not very productive. Nitrogen has a very high vapor pressure, that's why you can store it as a gas at 5000psi and regulate it down to a lower working pressure. CO2 is also stored as a liquid, when you shoot a paintball gun, some of the liquid boils off to replace the vapor you used. This boiling action is what makes it cold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 (edited) The man makes the most valid point of them all. This can be see with Natural Gas. When you transport Natural Gas over the ocean, it's in cryogenic liquid form due to energy content per size. A propane tank sized LNG (Liquefied Natural Gas) will have the GGE (Gas Gallon Equivalent) of about 5 gallons of gasoline. The same 5 GGE in CNG (Compressed Natural Gas) will require roughly two cylinders like your normal welding setup (120CF T-Cylinder) for Oxygen compressed to nearly 3800psig.You store FAR more in a liquid form than you EVER will in a compressed-gas form. In addition to being a medium pressure compressed gas container, they are also designed to handle that same pressure in a semi-cryogenic state as the liquid inside boils off and chills the container. The metallurgy in a cryogenic state is different than at room temperature or elevated to exhaust-valve temperatures. It's all taken into consideration in the design of the vessel being employed in the application. The boiling action in the CO2 results from the fact that CO2 is a liquid at normal pressures around -110F, you boil it at room temperature until it reaches a pressure in the vessel where the vapor pressure equalizes and it remains stable as a liquid. The same thing happens in N2O though the delivery pressure will (like Propane) change as the tank self-cools as the liquid is boiling. This is why they use bottle heaters: keep the pressure steady therefore keeping the engine from running too rich and robbing possible power. Too hot, too much N2O, and you start metal pieces on fire and they burn from excess oxygen present. It's not a pretty picture. Besides the tanks are CHEAP, and properly constructed as DOT Transport Cylinders for use in Motor Vehicles. Please reference my previous links to the moron transporting non-DOT approved cylinders near my house this time last year... This is what went off in front of my house, putting out all the windows: DO NOT substitute Compressed Gas Containers for uses which they are not originally designed! DOT Transportable Cylinders ALL have a "solder plug" or other relief mechanism that relieves pressure should it be in a fire or overpressure situation. The TWO PROPANE cylinders inside this van did NOT explode. Their solder plugs melted and the contents fed the fire, but there was no explosive release of energy. This vehicle had a standard welding T-Cylinder in it, and when the "pressure relieved" it blew across the interior of the van, as well as rapidly oxidizing everything inside it blowing the roof off and having it land over 120 feet away. The side door blew out, snagged a fence, turned to the west and cut down a small sapling before coming to a rest around 60 feet away. Did it mention that was after it flattened that fence in the process? Consider the force required and released to split metal (STEEL) this thick: LAID OPEN FLAT! What kind of force does that take? Still want to 'cut costs' on a pressure vessel containing oxygenate inside it??? Edited January 1, 2012 by Tony D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 As to AFFORDABLE... If you look in the classifieds here, there was a VERY reasonably priced NOS Direct-Port system with spare jets and all. WAS a very reasonably priced system. I'm sure when it arrives I might be persuaded to flip it...but not nearly as reasonably! No, that's a lie. It's MINE now. Go find your own! USED NOS / VENOM / Nitrous Express systems are available all the time on E-Bay. CHEAP! Hell, a brand new 10# bottle is only $200 from Summitt Racing. And to quote the NOS propaganda (which I tend to agree with): "NOS offers DOT-approved nitrous bottles in a variety of sizes and finishes to suit your needs. The bottles come with an NOS/CGA-approved high-flow valve and built-in siphon tube. For extra safety, NOS has designed an exclusive blow-off venting system. If your bottle is overfilled or if pressure increases beyond the maximum safety level, the vent opens and discharges the nitrous into a safe place." If, indeed, NOS is holding an 'Exclusive' to the blow down tube, they are the only system I'd use! They have been the only one I've used, personally anyway, ever since they were in the Garage over by Cyprus College... I'm not big on compressed gas accidents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidnightRider Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Trying to economize on a NOS system sounds like an all around bad idea... leave that to the ricers. IMHO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSM Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Besides the tanks are CHEAP, and properly constructed as DOT Transport Cylinders for use in Motor Vehicles. Please reference my previous links to the moron transporting non-DOT approved cylinders near my house this time last year... LAID OPEN FLAT! What kind of force does that take? Still want to 'cut costs' on a pressure vessel containing oxygenate inside it??? So the tank just failed? That is amazing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 It was loud enough when it failed that Los Angeles (87 miles away) Channel 2 Action News sent a chopper to televise the remains burning out... I had a link to the video, it was on their webpage... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josh817 Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Curious how pissed Tony was when this happened: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xf3WKTwHpIU Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Refinery Fires in the south? Isn't that a season there or something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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