Gollum Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 I don't see anything I said that would indicate that I feel EGR is useless for ALL, just that it has reasons to not be highly desirable for SOME. And remember, EGR's intent is NOT to improve MPG, that's just a nice benefit. It's main purpose is to reduce emissions, which it does nicely. My point about aftermarket EFI is that an EGR is only a small piece of the MPG pie. Yes, having EGR on any given setup should improve MPG to a degree. That said, it's not as much of a gain as, say, optimizing timing beyond that of the OEM dizzy curve. I've seen guys convert to an aftermarket ECU and still run 1.0 lambda under cruise and get significantly better MPG than with the OEM efi they threw out. By comparison the best OEM EFI MPG I've personally seen and trusted was 28 combined tank, while I've seen PLENTY of people getting 30mpg+ from L28ET motors able to dyno at 300+whp. Not apples to apples? I agree. But my point is that most of the people running high MPG OEM EFI are running EGR's, and most people running aftermarket EFI with 300+whp are NOT. EGR is NO "magic bullet" for MPG. That's my point. I never said it "doesn't make any difference if you run it or not". I actually agree with you on that point, it WILL make a difference On the other hand though, I agree with SleeperZ's big point to a degree that it simply doesn't matter for most of us. If you're looking to simplify your intake, the EGR can be pretty high on the list of "things easily removed without harmful side effects". I'm also a member of the forums at gassavers.org and would NEVER tell anyone on that forum to remove the EGR, as that crowd is generally looking to optimize MPG in every way possible. But I'm at HybridZ right now, where hardcore performance enthusiasts abound and for most of us pure engine, suspension, and chassis performance is the goal. We didn't buy these cars (in most cases) to eak out ever last MPG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrcbonk Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 280Dan, I am in the same boat as you. My application is a bit different, I swapped a rb25 into my engine bay, but there are lots of things I would like to reroute and "tuck" away. You may have already figured some of this out. You will want to start learning about all the different options for "plumbing" i.e. how you can replumb things to look cleaner and out of the way (without spending a fortune). On the electrical side don't be afraid to unwrap some of the loom and consider rewrapping and rerouting. One thing to keep in mind, keep your wiring away from hot areas in the engine bay, wires don't like heat! Don't be afraid to take things apart, just take lots of pictures. Other than that, I simply recommend working on one system at a time being mindful not to relocate a system where something else may need to go later. As mentioned above there are lots of pictures and ideas from many other z owners. With experience you will discover, as I have, what you can move around and what needs to stay put. My 2 cents Bonk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators RTz Posted April 13, 2012 Administrators Share Posted April 13, 2012 EVAP cans, though reducing HC in the atmosphere are a very good example of governments spending 90% of the budget on squeezing the last 10% improvement left over. Sorry Gollum, I see it quite differently. A 1960 Chevy pollutes more parked and off than a 2000 Chevy does going down the highway. The evap. canister is a substantial piece of that pie. I don’t see anything incremental about it. I understand this thread is not about emissions compliance in the legal sense, but I *DO* care about the fumes filling up my shop. In no way could I declare it inconsequential. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollum Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 Sorry Gollum, I see it quite differently. A 1960 Chevy pollutes more parked and off than a 2000 Chevy does going down the highway. The evap. canister is a substantial piece of that pie. I don’t see anything incremental about it. I understand this thread is not about emissions compliance in the legal sense, but I *DO* care about the fumes filling up my shop. In no way could I declare it inconsequential. I guess I just see it differently because my garage is about as well sealed as a S30 hatch area... I'd like it to be understood that I'm not anti-evap in anyway. I even run one on my daily S130. You have to admit though Ron, a lot of the reason that '60 chevy has so many vapor emissions has a LOT more to do with aspects other than just vapor leakage from the tank. The actual gas cap doesn't seal for anything, and the carb's float bowls aren't anything close to sealed either. A simple evap can doesn't solve either of those issues. Yes it's a step to a system to control vapors, and I can respect all that's been done in that regard through the years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators RTz Posted April 13, 2012 Administrators Share Posted April 13, 2012 You have to admit though Ron, a lot of the reason that '60 chevy has so many vapor emissions has a LOT more to do with aspects other than just vapor leakage from the tank. The actual gas cap doesn't seal for anything, and the carb's float bowls aren't anything close to sealed either. Agreed on the carb. The gas cap is kinda moot though. The tank must be vented and it was often done via the gas cap. With the advent of canisters, caps were all sealed and venting was done via the canister. Those two go together like popcorn and butter. Steering this back to the original post… This a fuel injected car with a sealed cap. The tank must be vented (in & out) and a canister is an efficient solution. It weighs next to nothing, requires almost no maintenance, doesn’t consume any power, and does a pretty good job containing fumes. Yes, they are ugly. So hide it. The yellow car In post #2 has one… it’s under the fender. To me, it’s a no brainer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leon Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 I don't see anything I said that would indicate that I feel EGR is useless for ALL, just that it has reasons to not be highly desirable for SOME. And remember, EGR's intent is NOT to improve MPG, that's just a nice benefit. It's main purpose is to reduce emissions, which it does nicely. My point about aftermarket EFI is that an EGR is only a small piece of the MPG pie. Yes, having EGR on any given setup should improve MPG to a degree. That said, it's not as much of a gain as, say, optimizing timing beyond that of the OEM dizzy curve. I've seen guys convert to an aftermarket ECU and still run 1.0 lambda under cruise and get significantly better MPG than with the OEM efi they threw out. By comparison the best OEM EFI MPG I've personally seen and trusted was 28 combined tank, while I've seen PLENTY of people getting 30mpg+ from L28ET motors able to dyno at 300+whp. Not apples to apples? I agree. But my point is that most of the people running high MPG OEM EFI are running EGR's, and most people running aftermarket EFI with 300+whp are NOT. EGR is NO "magic bullet" for MPG. That's my point. I never said it "doesn't make any difference if you run it or not". I actually agree with you on that point, it WILL make a difference On the other hand though, I agree with SleeperZ's big point to a degree that it simply doesn't matter for most of us. If you're looking to simplify your intake, the EGR can be pretty high on the list of "things easily removed without harmful side effects". I'm also a member of the forums at gassavers.org and would NEVER tell anyone on that forum to remove the EGR, as that crowd is generally looking to optimize MPG in every way possible. But I'm at HybridZ right now, where hardcore performance enthusiasts abound and for most of us pure engine, suspension, and chassis performance is the goal. We didn't buy these cars (in most cases) to eak out ever last MPG. I think you may be mixing up my replies to you and SleeperZ? I understand that you don't feel that EGR is useless, but I also never mentioned EGR as being some solution for getting better gas mileage. My whole point throughout this entire thread is that EGR and vapor recovery system do in fact serve a function, which may have merit to some and be meaningless to others. SleeperZ made a sweeping generalization so I provided extra information so that we don't keep getting people that trash emission control systems for no other reason than pure ignorance. Gaining an understanding of what one is working on is paramount to making good decisions. Ultimately, I hope this will help the OP in taking a more educated approach after realizing the function of the components he's trying to ditch (original point of this thread). Agreed on the carb. The gas cap is kinda moot though. The tank must be vented and it was often done via the gas cap. With the advent of canisters, caps were all sealed and venting was done via the canister. Those two go together like popcorn and butter. Steering this back to the original post… This a fuel injected car with a sealed cap. The tank must be vented (in & out) and a canister is an efficient solution. It weighs next to nothing, requires almost no maintenance, doesn’t consume any power, and does a pretty good job containing fumes. Yes, they are ugly. So hide it. The yellow car In post #2 has one… it’s under the fender. To me, it’s a no brainer. Well said Ron. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollum Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 EGR does in fact give you better mpg, the explanation is given in the thread I linked. I'm not getting posts mixed up I believe. My whole point was to bring balance to BOTH of you guys. SleeperZ did make a broad generalization, but you also helped flip the other direction entirely. Yes there's a reason for the EGR. How much will it really hurt/effect performance? Not all that much in most cases, hence the broad generalized view that it can be removed safely. Yes people can tend to get removal-happy when it comes to smog-related devices. I don't endorse people doing things out of ignorance, blatantly just taking someone's word and just "getting rid of all this useless smog crap", but I've seen plenty of builds in which 90% of smog devices were removed and I didn't think the owner was an idiot for doing so. The thing we ALL seem to be saying to some extent, is to BE EDUCATED, and make up YOUR OWN damn mind about what to remove and why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators RTz Posted April 13, 2012 Administrators Share Posted April 13, 2012 The thing we ALL seem to be saying to some extent, is to BE EDUCATED, and make up YOUR OWN damn mind about what to remove and why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leon Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 The thing we ALL seem to be saying to some extent, is to BE EDUCATED, and make up YOUR OWN damn mind about what to remove and why. Bingo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
280Dan Posted April 13, 2012 Author Share Posted April 13, 2012 Man this stirred up quite a discussion. I think this was the most replies and of my threads have ever gotten lol. But thanks again for everyone's feedback, it was all very helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J240ZTurbo Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 Dan you got pmd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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