suparman Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 So I am contemplating lifting a spare 73 240 I have. Right now I am thinking on using the Megan coil overs with longer adapter tube and a 1.5 inch aluminum spacer block like they use to lift Subaru's, or custom mounts with Fox shocks, I am sure that custom arms will need to be made to keep geometry right. If I do this I want to do it right. None of that truck frame adaptation junk it never looks right. I have lots of BLM desert where I am so that is the motivation. I am thinking 36-38" tires, but that may be optimistic in height and not needed I may just have the four by mentality kicking in on that one. What are the ideas opinions and criticisms here who would be recommended to design and build control arms? Probably a r230 diff and axles for strength slightly built motor with fuel injection no interior other than seats and maybe a stereo, trans unknown yet I haven't done enough research I have always liked the TH350. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VKLR Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 Without going to a full tube frame you are going to end up with a twisted pile of dung. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollum Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 Without going to a full tube frame you are going to end up with a twisted pile of dung. Really? Because Pete Brock seemed to do just fine rallying back in the 70's... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clutchdust Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 I am curious to know why you're choosing a Z for the project. Nothing wrong with it, "because I want to" is a perfectly valid reason (not my first choice though). It just seems to me there are far better, and cheaper, candidates out there. Maybe an early non-WRX/STI Imprezza for instance. Besides, I'm sure there is someone here who would love to have a good '73 chassis. You going for the '70s rally car style? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suparman Posted June 9, 2012 Author Share Posted June 9, 2012 This is my motivation. I just want something slightly bigger, No rock crawling or anything just to drive around the dessert and see what I can find maybe some gophers..lol. I see no issue with the chassis design for this idea. The Baja cars and other off road racers did quite well in there day if I am not mistaken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suparman Posted June 9, 2012 Author Share Posted June 9, 2012 I expected some guff for choosing this platform but as it stands I have cannibalized many parts from it for my daily driver I have panels for it but they are rusty to say the least I have been re-working the good ones for my daily and restoring it as i drive it and was looking at the parts unit today and was thinking it would be cool to kinda replicate the rally and Baja cars. I just am not sure how they went about fitting larger tires and the ideas I posed originally were the best guesses I could come up with and have it be strong and flexible. I have found this site to be beyond helpful and thought with the immense collective knowledge here I would be pointed in the right direction Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randy 77zt Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 I would use the 75-78 car as the unit body is stiffer.A 73 should have a roll cage-strut tower-frame rail tie connection job done on it.then I would find a ka24 drievtrain out of a 240sx and install-probably an auto trans.for the rear end I would use 3.9 or 4.1 R200 with welded spiders.I would probably just machine some lift blocks for the top of the struts out of billet aluminum.Some slighly stiffer 12" coil overs on good struts with no sway bars.tire would be 30"X9.5X15 .a v8 drivetrain in an unbraced car would eventually break the unit body.The real problem is getting the most suspension travel as possable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollum Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 Randy's points are all good. Doing a cage is a MUST and should tie into the strut towers to improve rigidity and to help lessen the loads transmitted to the bendy 5th spring. I'm not sure I'd go for a KA, other than the fact they're dirt cheap to replace. The auto trans isn't a bad idea though. And just to help spur the fire. Here's some inspiration pictures. (extra points for naming the HybridZ member represented by the blue car!) Hope you enjoy the Baja love. I say DO IT! I know that the main reason the Baja didn't do better than it did was because of it's long nose, which impedes visibility when going over crests. It made any crest a blind leap of faith trusting you had the nose in the right direction before it was too late. Surprisingly successful though if you ask me. Won it's fair share of trophies. So again, if Pete Brock pulled it off over 40 years ago now, I'm betting someone with a bit of determination could do alright themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GarageRatt13 Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 I like it!! I say build it just like one of the old rally/baja cars. I wouldnt lift it that much, just enough to get some better tires under it and some better ground clearance. Also some skid plates are probably a good idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suparman Posted June 9, 2012 Author Share Posted June 9, 2012 I am definitely planning on the steel reinforcement I was going to leave the stock motor but the ka is cheap and has good torque. I love that first pick with the 510 I am torn on which on I like more...lol it is just the suspension that gets me. If it were a truck I would know what to do. I am thinking 32" tires at the least 34" would make me more comfortable R200 with 4.10 would be perfect for gears I have always had good luck with that ratio. The articulation of the suspension is my biggest concern. I am a little ways from doing this as I want my daily's exterior restored first. The majority of the money spent on this project will be in the suspension followed by safety I am going to go to the farm supply and buy tractor paint so definitely nothing fancy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 (edited) Really? Because Pete Brock seemed to do just fine rallying back in the 70's... Not with 36-38" tires he didn't. If you are going to make offhanded comments, at least be intellectually honest doing so! Brock used 7.00-LT-14's and similar sizes. Suspension travel was increased, but not to the extent that even a 30" tire would take full compression without rubbing on something. If you want to use 36/38" tires, strip the Z suspension out of it, and bolt it on a Bronco-II frame and go mudding. It's been done before. If you are going to use the Z Chassis for realistic desert running, you will have to be reasonable about tire sizing and actual compression/extension. There are things you can do to increase this travel but physical limitations within the unit body fenderwells aren't going to allow 38's. 28's maybe, possibly 30's. But you are already into the territory where at least a 4.11 is going to be necessary to run around in top gears...likely 4.38's! (But worry not, 4.62's are out there!) The photo you show as your "inspiration" most DEFINATELY did NOT use coil-overs or ANYTHING NEAR 38" tires! The Works Rally cars used a strut and spring package set up to raise the car, and ran 14" wheels. I actually have photos of not the #11 car, but of the #5 with the EXACT size wheels on it... If you can give me some time, I have them on my archive drive from last year and can maybe post details on the tires. I shot a lot of Hi-Res photos of the car and I'm not too sure on how they will work here without heavy resizing. It may just come down to me reading the sizes in my photo and telling you what it is. I have photos of the shocks with the Nissan Tag "Monte Carlo Spare" still on them and can say they were not coil overs. A simple cutting of the spring perch and raising it a set amount will give you a lift without spending a buttload of money on suspension. Remember the Works cars competed in very harsh conditions at speed with what many times appeared to be stock components. On closer examination you find thicker metal in unit bodies, or legal-within-the-rules reinforcements to standard suspension components. If you aren't stuck on total 100% factory looking tweaks things like changing your outer tie-rods to heim joints with the use of standard Tie-Rod Adapters to allow for the articulation required without binding makes your life a lot simpler! I have been in, on, and around those #11, #5 rally cars, as well as the Baja 1000 Bluebird 510 and they're not as exotic as you think. A lot of times people these days do things because the parts are available and 'it's how it's done now'---back then a lot of this didn't exist. They simply reworked stock stuff and to everybody's surprise it worked just fine! Edited June 10, 2012 by Tony D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suparman Posted June 10, 2012 Author Share Posted June 10, 2012 Lol.. Yes I made that qualifying statement about 38 potentially being to large.. 30's pushing it... hmm that sucks. I thought the Baja's were about 30. Hmmm, definitely not going with truck frame idea to make it look stock I would have to channel the body and drop it over the frame. I would rather deal with smaller tire's. What tire size did the old pros run? My honest use is to drive around the desert and find gophers and old mine and such. So nothing super extreme is needed. 38's would just be my testosterone talking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 (edited) Current tires on the car displayed at Zama (#5) and loaned to Nissan Dealers through Japan are Dunlop SP Sport-85R 185-65-14 "For Rally Use Only" directional tires (marked "Outside" and "Inside" on the sidewall)--THESE ARE DIFFERENT THAN THE STUDDED TIRES IN THE BAGGAGE COMPARTMENT, but comparably-sized. This is a cross-section of the 'under photos' I took in Lo-Res. They can come on fairly unimpeded. The high res stuff is more in detail of little bits about the car, but from these you can see they have 'dropped' the car for display--look at the droop in the tie-rods, definitely set up for a higher spring rate to lift the car than what is on there now. In these photos you can see the damage from rubbing tyres, and ripped unit-body parts from things being torn off the car at some time. You would be surprised to know how well a stock Z does off-road just stock. Lift the suspension by rewelding the perches an inch or two higher and using higher rate springs to prevent bottoming so easily and get some suspension travel dialed in and you are set with a pretty much stock car. For what you propose, your main concern will be lifting it some to prevent bottoming and protecting undercarrige from damage scraping over crap. Have a look at these photos (see their spares: two tires, a shovel, a long-travel jack, and stuff bungeed in bags all over inside the car!) and see if you get any ideas. This one doesn't need to break the bank. Remember this was a full-on-at-speed competition car. If they did it with this, there's no reason you can't as well! Edited June 10, 2012 by Tony D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 I loved the post recently about how someone 'discovered' the idea from a semi to put a bug screen in front of the S30's radiator to keep crap out of it... If you will notice in one of the photos of a Z-Car prepped in 1971.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caliburito Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Beautiful photos tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suparman Posted June 10, 2012 Author Share Posted June 10, 2012 Those pictures are sweet..very nice,thank you. The suspension looks stock with the exception of the way bent tie rods. It seems I was over thinking things and trying to turn this in to another horrendous Jeep thing, lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Yeah, when I got access to the car, I started taking photos. When I left (closing) we both realized I'd spend three hours there! There are a million photos of these cars out there. But you don't see many where the guy laid on his back sticking his camera underneath to catch details of exhaust hangars on a 10MP camera... Which is what I did.... Most of these photos were replicated again in HiRes. I was contemplating 'getting thrown out' because I SO BADLY wanted to open the doors to get interior photos better than I what I could get through the windows. As it was, the violation of the intent of the rope barrier was quite blatant. I didn't touch... but moving around that car with the camera was like being in Vegas at Cheetah's! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VKLR Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 (edited) An up to date rally Z car would be cool, maybe something like a Desert runner. Swap in a light power plant and make it as light as possible. Edited June 10, 2012 by VKLR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suparman Posted June 11, 2012 Author Share Posted June 11, 2012 Yea I really like the idea of the KA swap torque lightweight... I am really liking this idea... those pics are huge inspiration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 (edited) I will remind you the first year the Kenyan "East African Safari Rally" was run recently under the ORIGINAL RULES (meaning NOBODY but the driver or assistant could touch the car once the stage started---maintenance personnel could only touch it once it made it to the end of the stage.) The 240Z was once again at the TOP OF THE FINISHING LIST AGAINST MODERN COMPETITION! If you have it right (like the VW Beetle) there just isn't much you need to change to keep it competitive. in fact, if you go to their website---WHAT CAR GRACES THE HOMEPAGE??? IF IT WORKS, DON'T CHANGE---LOOK FAMILIAR FROM 40+ Years Ago? I'm not sure, but I may have supplied the chassis for this car... Posh Company, Indeed! http://www.eastafricansafarirally.com/ What was that I said again about limiting droop and making all your travel on compression? So, does it look like you will need anything more than stock, slightly modified? Edited June 11, 2012 by Tony D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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