MSII Extra serial 321. Have LC-1 Noise issues and settings in error help!

[motomanmike]

Reason I ask is i've still have a little noise.  Its making my rpm flutter anywhere from 50-150 rpm but it may be the just the tune itself.  I've keyed in all of Cygnus's tables into a tune, I plan to load it this weekend and toy with it.  Only thing I noticed is he is using the rising edge as his ignition capture but I don't think it will affect the tune, just would affect the trigger offset if I changed it so i plan to leave mine as falling edge. 

 

I did get a nice long data log last night with no resets. Probably 45 minutes or so.  Thats the longest since i've gotten MS i've datalog without going offline or resetting. I wasn't brave enough to drive her and hour and a half to work though

Edited January 10, 2013 by motomanmike

[motomanmike]

Pretty sure my tach fluctuation is because of the tune, i keyed in all the tables of the cygnus tune but i'm waiting until i have plenty of time to load it.  Maybe this weekend.  My rpm's fluctuate anywhere fro 50-150 rpms  while driving.

 

I did get a nice 50 minute data log last night and was very happy I had no resets.  The car ran OK, not the greatest but far less jittery than it ever has been.  Man this thing pulls hard in boost. 

[OhBilly]

If you are getting a fluctuating tach readout while holding a constant driving speed it is noise on the tach line and not the tune. When you're in gear and holding a constant speed, your engine speed cannot change.

 

My tach readout fluctuates about as much as yours, and I wouldn't worry too much about it. As long as you don't have large differentials in your spark and/or VE bins between your RPM columns at a constant load, your interpolated bin values won't vary much with a +/- 150 RPM fluctuation. This assumes of course that your RPM values are decently spaced apart (i.e. not 1000, 1050, 1100, etc).

 

Glad you are getting to drive your car now though. It's been about a month since mine has left the garage.

[motomanmike]

I had a little time tonight and loaded cygnus's tables. Car runs. AFR's in normal range however my voltage spikes are now much worse. I've gotten the tune stable so i feel it's a wiring issue.. My fuel pump is loader again. The other night when the car ran pretty well i mentioned the fuel pump was very quiet. It's my prime suspect at the moment. One point in this build I had a regulator go bad and I'm certain it ran dry. It possibly damaged it. Pressure is stable 38lbs but its much loader than the other night when I mentioned how quiet it was. I plan to run a seperate relay and trigger it with the relay board, kind of redundant but a must for piece of mind. That's a long run of wire so I want to run a thicker gauge wire to it and bring its ground all the way back to the battery instead of the chassis in the back. Thicker wire than what I could get into the relay board. I know the voltage isn't actually fluctuating too much on the charging system . I've got an LCD display voltmeter that plugs into the cigarette outlet and watched it very closely tonight. It fluctuates .1 to .3 volts the entire time I drove it that's along with me turning on and off headlights fan motor brake lights rear defrost or wipers. The car was very jittery tonight, before and after loading that tune but the one thing that changed was the pump sounds much loader. The pump is mounted below the feed line just a side note. Either the voltage drops from too small a wire or bad pump. i know these walbro pumps are very sensitive to voltage. I think it is injecting the noise or causing a voltage differential on the relay board maybe.

[OhBilly]

Whatever is going on, it sounds like it's an intermittent problem and like you say, probably related to wiring and/or your possible fuel pump issue. One other thing that could possibly make the fuel pump behave strangely (i.e. sound louder than normal) is a dirty or partially clogged fuel filter. If you haven't checked that filter lately it might be a good time to do so. Might be worth a try before you start adding an additional relay and re-wiring your pump.

 

Good luck.

[motomanmike]

I plan to check it all, i'm kind of relieved I know where its originating from.  Here are two data logs to compare.  1 day apart from eachother.  I changed absolutly nothing wiring wise or mechanically.  Just two different days and two different data logs. Only thing I noticed like I said was the audible sound of the fuel pump and the data log battery voltage spikes are extremely bad on the second one.  I doubled checked the eyelets that connect to the pump itself before going inside last night and they were tight as was the connection into the relay board.I imagine its just too thin of gauge  wire running back there.  I'm pretty sure I only ran a 14 or 16 gauge wire. Walbro said 7amps was the max draw on these pumps but i don't believe it. Plan on doing a 10 or 12 gauge and i've got an extra fuel filter so i'll swap that as well. Its supposed to be up in the high 50's to low 60's here this weekend so its pleasant weather to work in.  I'll let you all know what it does.

 

 

Something I've noticed this morning though, my megalog viewer.  When I "open tune file"  It won't bring in my VE table with the new KPA ranges no matter what. The actual cells themself are the same as the new tables but the kpa range along the left side isn't right. The AFR target table shows correctly however the ranges for KPA are still ending at 165 eventhough the new table is ending in 220.  Very odd. I've emailed them. I'm using the registered version. I noticed its displaying a 16x16 VE table in megalogviewer but my table is only a 12x12.  Very odd. Is that normal?

VOLTAGE COMPARISON.zip

current tune.zip

Edited January 11, 2013 by motomanmike

[motomanmike]

Messed with the fuel pump. Took it off. Changed both filters and that's not the issue either. Seems to be the PWM circuit because the voltage spikes lessen as I change the injector PWM time threshold. It's very apparent with each change so I will most likely have to mod my board.

[loy]

Maybe try the resistors on the injectors again instead of pwm?

[motomanmike]

Thats when my com port burnt out of my pc, i'm not sure if the events were related but i'm really not comfortable with trying it again until i get an answer. I emailed Matt for some direction here.It has to be the flyback circuit though. I don't get voltage spikes at idle or during decel but revving under load I do. I've checked wiring multiple times. Tried all sorts of things. Playing with it today I changed some of the time thresholds on the PWM and it directly affected the intensity of the voltage spikes. Not a new revelation. Many have had that issue but i'm hoping thats what it is. If its not i'm clueless.

Edited January 13, 2013 by motomanmike

[motomanmike]

I guess i'm worried about the events being related or just a very fluke timing of things to occur

[motomanmike]

I put a .22 cap on the H1 boot on the motherboard that many have done.  Looking at my fear of doing the other mods on the 3.57 flyback circuit I laughed at myself.  I hadn't done my homework.  I thought the portions they were talking about cutting the center legs out of were the little teeny tiny black transistors about the size of a pencil eraser that often solder flows together on.  However its the actual parts on the heat sink which are more than sizable enough to cut out and solder too I may try that also.

 

 

The .22 cap didn't totally solve the issue from what I can see on a computer screen but i seems to have helped quite a bit.  I've had a few rum cokes so I can't drive anywhere LOL but I did run a short data log in the shop just now and the voltage never spike above 15 and never dipped below 13.9 which seems promising actually.  The car will idle correctly too which i'm very hopeful of. 

 

Been a good day though. I helped a friend install a PNP on his miata and get the basics set up.  Jees those guys who can buy a PNP have it easy.  That thing fired right up and ran like a raped ape out of the box.  The only thing I had to do was set base timing and fatten it up slightly past 4000 rpm. The base map it came with was pretty much spot on.  Still not as fast as my Datsun though

 

Can't wait to try this in the morning.

Edited January 13, 2013 by motomanmike

[motomanmike]

To think that something that small would solve my issue is a joke. Then the rambling in my head is oh, try the mod where you pull the injector 12v out to a separate feed. It can sit there awhile.  I'm just so frustrated with it at the moment I don't need to be working on it.  Heres this mornings data log.

 

after cap.zip

Edited January 13, 2013 by motomanmike

[loy]

Congrads!

[OhBilly]

I'm not sure if I'm supposed to be happy or sad for you. I quick-looked your datalog and it didn't look too bad to me. I get voltage spikes about the same as you do. If you really want to smooth it out you're likely going to have to do the separate 12V feed to the injectors like letitsnow described in the "non-standard board mods" thread. That mod is in my future as well, but right now it's not a major priority.

 

I get the impression that you have expectations of your MS box controlling things as well as an OE ECU. The unfortunate but truthful reply is that it just isn't going to do that. Yes, you can make it work pretty damn well considering what it cost, but just try to remember that at its roots it's a hobbyist computer. OE ECUs have thousands of hours of engineering behind them, and OE wiring harnesses are the same way.

 

I'd suggest the next time you go out and drive it, keep the laptop lid closed and just try to enjoy it a little bit. Don't peer too hard at the data, trying to get every glitch and quirkiness to disappear. Don't be the dog that chases his own tail until he collapses from exhaustion

 

Cheers.

 

 

[motomanmike]

I get what you are saying but my car is still VERY jittery when not in boost.  Almost like a misfire.  I've changed the coil, rotor button and cap, has magnecor wires on it, new plugs in this process.  I can feel the jitter when I see the voltage change. It starts to accelerate from a dead stop, like a normal take off in traffic fine, then at about 1500-1800 rpm I feel the breakup and jitteryness start. I can't bear it.  We installed a PNP MS2 on a miata on Sunday. It was a painless install and his car rides just a smooth as the stock ecu did.  A few stutters during quick tps movements but I think he can tune it out.  At a constant speed and load my car jitters. Almost like a misfire.  I can't pin it down and beginning to become very frustrated with it.  I can see with the realtime display it correlates with the jitter.  Anytime I see that voltage fluctuate, the car jitters.  Not sure what route to go anymore other than those non standard board mods. I'm going to try them and see what it does.  I'm beginning to question other things however.  Fuel system.  I've got a 1/2 inch fuel line all the way almost to the rail feeding it with my stock z feed line as my return.  I'm wondering is the 1/2 line just too much to keep volume to keep consistent with the stock regulator, I don't have an in car fuel pressure gauge.  Is my return the issue.  I'm grasping at straws at this point. Wondering if the stock optical distributor is causing problems, anything I can think of.

 

MS isn't jittery by nature. Its apparent to me with the other 2 installs i've done. Kind of a kick in the teeth to me, both the friends I got to jump to MS have had 0 issues.  One on the Miata, one on the supra/celica.  Both those installs were smooth when we got finished so I know its something with MY build.  I can't pinpoint because obviously it wasn't a solid foundation to start with.  Its a hybridz.  Mechanically its there, the motor is good.  I don't know about the rest.  I may have a bad injector eventhough they were all new during this build. Something isn't right.  I keep suspecting the MS box but it might not be the problem at all. I don't know.  When I do, i'll much a much happier person because its drive me crazy

 

Could my BIP373 be bad? 

Edited January 14, 2013 by motomanmike

[OhBilly]

I get what you are saying but my car is still VERY jittery when not in boost.  Almost like a misfire.

 

Hmmm. Since you have experience with a few other installs that weren't jittery, I'll assume you are correct that it isn't that way by nature. My MS install is the only MS experience I have and low and behold, my car behaves exactly like you state above. Just holding a constant speed, my car is definitely jittery. Under any kind of load, it doesn't jitter. assumed this was just normal MS behavior.

 

Regarding your fuel system stuff, I doubt that is causing much trouble since your car and my car I would say are behaving pretty much the same.

 

Sounds like we could both stand doing some "non-standard board mods" to see what happens. Other than that, it sounds like going with the inline injector resistors are the way to go (and turn PWM off).

[skirkland1980]

I think D14 would be a better output than JS10...I also get a smoother running engine when I set accel enrich to 0% tps.

Edited January 14, 2013 by skirkland1980

[motomanmike]

Whats the benefit of using D14?  Its just the way the board is built up that I can see?  The instructions tell you with direct coil control to bring it through JS10.

 

Install the appropriate jumpers:

• For MS-IIâ„¢, install jumpers:
  • IGBTIN (near the heat sink side of the DB37 on the bottom of the board) to JS10 (under the 40-pin CPU socket on the bottom of the PCB)
  • IGBTOUT to IGN - near the Heat sink end of the DB37 on the bottom of the PCB (this brings the ignition control signal out on DB37 pin #36)
• For MSnS-E user on MS-I, see the MSnS-E web site for additional jumper connections and to enable the ignition output.

 

 

Billy.  No lie, both those installs rode just a smooth as a factory ecu powered machine.  Smooth as can be.  Not a sputter or jitter to be felt once you get the tps/map accel enrichment right.  These systems are capable of it.  Because I've seen that I won't settle for any less, I really don't care what I have to do to achieve it, I will do it.  Whether it be with MS or another system, this swap will run smooth when its done.  I'd just rather it be with MS because i'll never get back the countless hours of research and hands on i've had with it.

 

I ordered some 6.8 ohm resistors.  I'vle got a litte tray, i'll encase them in resin and make a nice solid resistor pack.  I really hope it helps solve the issue.  Its sooo frustrating though.  3 installs and mine is the only one that has this issue.

Edited January 14, 2013 by motomanmike

[OhBilly]

It's really good to know that the jitter can be dealt with. Today I am going to separate out the +12V feed to the flyback circuit per letitsnows "non-standard board mods" thread. It looks like it will be really easy to do since I have a number of spare jumper locations available on the board (IAC1A, IAC1B, IAC2A and IAC2B) with corresponding terminal block locations on the relay board (S1, S1, S3 and S4). The whole thing shouldn't take more than 15 minutes. I don't know when I'll get to test it but I'll keep you posted.

 

For some reason my fuel pump quit working a few days ago. I need to crawl under the back of the car and check the wiring.

 

It's always something....

 

Good luck Mike.

[motomanmike]

Thats really funny, I did the mod last night and thats exactly how I ran the jumpers.  I ran mine to IAC2A and IAC2B.  I haven't installed the ECU back in the car yet.  Its been raining here the past 2 days so maybe later this week i'll try it.  Seems i'll use S3 and S4 to send the 12v in.  I'll let you know how it goes. 

 

I also lifted the BIP373 off the heat sink.  It really looked lacking on thermal paste so I put new thermal paste on it, wondering if the BIP373 was overheating slightly because there was hardly any thermal paste on it.  I'll keep you posted.