OhBilly Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 (edited) Regarding your jumpers on the board, I just talked to one of our electrical engineers here. He said to make sure the jumpers get routed away from as many electrical components as possible. A good route is to come off the TIP125s and go up, running the wires along the upper edge of the case between the case wall and the screws/nuts securing all the transistors to the heat sink. When the wires get to the Q16 area, route them down along the back edge of the DB37 connector to your IAC jumpers. Just avoid running the wires over the top of other components on the board because that can cause unwanted noise as well. Edited January 15, 2013 by OhBilly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skirkland1980 Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 D14 is a better, stronger output. I guess you'll just have to live with the problem instead of fixing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motomanmike Posted January 15, 2013 Author Share Posted January 15, 2013 (edited) Are you using an MSII with direct coil control I see you are using PCB 3.0? As far as the comment regarding "living with it" I think i've been very clear about what my intentions are and its why this thread is still going. I find your input interesting and would be more than willing to try it. I'm just very unclear about why a certain pin output on the board is going to change the dynamic of my issue and almost took your comment as a pop shot. If you could elaborate I think we all would find it very interesting. What jumpers exist on your board for your spark output, what output pin on the DB37 are you using etc. Saying use D14 tells us nothing specific as its just a portion of the board the LED typically goes in and doesn't even exist with an LED on the specific board i'm working with PCB 3.57. I've trolled through some forums trying to find specific examples of how people accomplish this with no success. The manual mentions nothing of using it for direct coil control. Billy, I was also concerned about noise with those 12v feeds. If I see it being a problem i'm just going to drill 2 holes in the top of the case and bring two wires out the top of the case on their own to a 12v source. I'm going to try it jumpered to the IAC first though, its a little cleaner install that way. Might get it installed tonight but its still raining here on the shore so I doubt i'll drive it today. Edited January 15, 2013 by motomanmike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motomanmike Posted January 15, 2013 Author Share Posted January 15, 2013 (edited) From the man himself. My email "A guy is stating that D14 is a stronger ignition output. Looking at the components of an MSII I can't even figure out from the manual for MSII assembly where you'd build it up to come through D14 but i'm very curious what he's talking about" Reply "No. The main advantages of using D14 are (1) easier to migrate fromMS1/Extra, and (2) you keep all your distributorless outputs, if used,the same." Skirkland you may be using distributorless ignition or may have upgraded from MS1 at some point I don't know but there is no strength advantage of using D14. Edited January 15, 2013 by motomanmike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skirkland1980 Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 I'm using MS2 on 2 L28 datsuns. One is a 3.0, one is a 3.57. On the 3.57 I tried using JS10 and was having problems. I contacted Matt, he suggested D14. Since I was already using D14 on my 3.0 I set up D14 on the 3.57. I soldered a lead to pin 7 of the cpu with a 330 ohm resistor to the bip373 and the engine started running good. You seemed very adamant about not trying a documented solution to your problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Cramer Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 (edited) Why do you say that? If you're thinking of the R9 resistor on the MS2 daughter board, it was changed from 1K in the schematics to 330 ohms in production MS2s, making the two outputs schematically identical (a processor port driving the BIP373 transistor through a 330 ohm resistor). The problem I was working with on your install was that you had wired the board up to use D14 as the spark output, but set it for JS10 in TunerStudio. The result was that D14 was following its default behavior to blink (and fire your coil!) each time the injectors pulsed, at a constant crank angle. D14 is a better, stronger output. Edited January 15, 2013 by Matt Cramer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skirkland1980 Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 I remember you telling me to use D14. I just tried to find the old emails to see why but I couldn't. Sorry for the confusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motomanmike Posted January 15, 2013 Author Share Posted January 15, 2013 Skirkland I accept your apology but do yourself a favor. Don't get frustrated with someone that questions your advice, especially when they have lots of money and time tied up in it. Also read thoroughly. Matt specifically stated why you had the issue you did with your build and it was a tunerstudio setting because of how you built up your boards. You've tried to insult me twice on my own thread because I wouldn't take your advice and I was right to question it. My boards aren't built like yours in regards to the ignition outputs. I see you posting alot in the MS forums. I'm sure you are knowledgeable, but you aren't always right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skirkland1980 Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 Noone is always correct. I was using JS10 at first because the board comes that way. At the time there was almost no documentation on how to properly set it up. D14 works good for me and JS10 did not so I will always recommend D14. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motomanmike Posted March 16, 2013 Author Share Posted March 16, 2013 (edited) Its been about 2 1/2 months since i've posted anything on this issue. I installed a new clutch, transmission, rear suspension, r200 rear and rear t3 arms in the mean time. I finally buttoned all of it up and started the car and drove it and the verdict is I still have noise. Flat out. I own a few MS2 boards. All work fine both on stims and all functions work when installed in the car and they all yield the same results for the most part. My wiring must be my issue because it isn't these boards. So my thoughts are to re do the entire harness and lose the relay board. My data logs look terrible (attached) The only thing I'm going to try first off is my rpm input wire. Currently I have the factory 4 pin pigtail that is plugged into the distributor on the distributor. I cannibalized a stock harness that had lots of issue and cut the plug off of it about 16 inches back from the plug so I'd have plenty of wire. I then spliced shielded cable to the plug so i could quickly remove it if i needed too. So my thoughts are two fold. Either ditch the relay board and use just a pre made harness from DIY and do my own relays for fuel pump, injectors and coil or attempt to wire my distributor right from the distributor all the way to the relay board. I'm not sure what I'll try fist but I'll post up the results. I don't get any resets, my car stayed connected to tunerstudio the entire time and never cut out. It did however feel very weak, unstable and shuttered quite a bit. Never backfired though. This was all on a V3.0 MS2 no frills, just basic fuel and spark with a bip directly driving the coil and using the PWM New Compressed (zipped) Folder.zip Edited March 16, 2013 by motomanmike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loy Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 Did you ever install a cap on H1? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motomanmike Posted March 18, 2013 Author Share Posted March 18, 2013 (edited) I haven't yet on this board. I upped the required fuel yesterday up into the 13 range and it ran better but not great, I feel comfortable with it enough that i'm going to try to take it to work this week, maybe Friday. I challenged my boss who is a DC electrical genius that he couldn't fix it and he laughed at me, said he'd fix it in 20 minutes, grounds are the problem he is convinced. We shall see how it works out. I hope it does. Here's another datalog, some serious spikes and dips on it. The reset, i stalled it out turning the car around. I'm not quite used to this new clutch yet. New Compressed (zipped) Folder.zip Edited March 18, 2013 by motomanmike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motomanmike Posted March 24, 2013 Author Share Posted March 24, 2013 (edited) I installed the cap on the H1 boot . I have upped the table size now to a 16x16 and cut off my muffler so now its just a straight back exhaust. I've ran about 2 hours total of data logs and my VE analyze on hard will barely change my tune. My car runs ok, It will run through all the gears, boost and cruise but it isn't smooth at all. I still have a misfire. I'm convinced now that MS isn't my issue and am looking further into the basics because the datalogs look pretty good. On the hunt for a sender and gauge to monitor fuel pressure in the car while driving. Also going to get my injectors flow tested somewhere. They were new when I got them but that doesn't mean they are right. I had an issue with an injector driver in this swap and maybe it fried an injector who knows. Datalogs look ok, the battery voltage stutters a total of .8 volts when I get the misfire but its from 14.1-13.4 or so. The misfire is causing the AFR to fluctuate to the lean side. Thats why my AFR readings look so horrible.(heart monitor) The RPM changes pretty consistent with the stutter so I'm sure the alternators just reacting to the engine speed i think is why my battery voltage fluctuates like it does. I don't get any resets. I don't lose logs. The fluctuations of the AFR directly coorelate with the misfire. Not every bump, but when you see a full change of 1 on the afr it happened. 2 questions A regular old style coil like i'm using My understanding is they either work or they don't, there really isn't much in between? Running I think 3.0 on dwell if memory serves correct. Is there any way an injector can be bad but seem to work ok in certain areas? I thought I remember seeing a post about a guy with a bad injector. The car ran ok but had problems at certain RPM i think it was in boost, the only way he could tell it had an issue was on a scope. I've also read posts where a guy swore MS was his problem for weeks and it ended up being a bad seal on the injector letting air into the mixture past the throttle body. Some thing is wrong with this set up. It acts better in boost than under 100kpa but still stutters some in boost. Does not detonate but stutters. I have 2 MS boxes and they all act the same so It isn't MS. I've replaced most everything there is to replace before I installed the engine but something isn't playing icen and i'm really running out of ideas. I've sprayed starting fluid all over the manifold to test for vacuum leaks with no change in rpm. i've pulled the connectors off of each injector and the rpm does change. I've listened to hear them clicking with a stethoscope and they call click away so they are firing. Not sure which direction to head. I pondered air bubbles in the fuel, but i would think i'd see a leak. I've made sure the pick up feed tube is tight and all fittings are tight going to the pump just in case. New Compressed (zipped) Folder.zip Edited March 24, 2013 by motomanmike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Cramer Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 You don't need a ton of thermal paste - just enough to fill in the tiny scratches on the heat sink and the back of the transistor so heat conducts across the junction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motomanmike Posted March 26, 2013 Author Share Posted March 26, 2013 (edited) Learned that the hard way a month or so ago. Matt, I do just want to say thank you. You guys have been really awesome in leading me in the right direction with things. The repairs to the boards etc. I've learned to diagnose and repair the injector drivers, the daughtercard tests, ignition outputs etc. I've installed a few of these things now and all have went smooth except my own car (which i'd rather have it that way) however it is a little frustrating at the same time. I'm fighting a misfire and I don't really think its megasquirt anymore. I took a datalog and video of a run recently just to see how the AFR's on the LC1 gauge looked VS the MS datalog. I'm going to change injectors to some high impedence injectors and maybe rule out a bad injector. Its pretty close. attached is the datalog when this video was taken, if you turn the sound up on the video for youtube you can hear the break up but AFR's stay within a safe range IMO but maybe i'm not seeing something. They are erratic though, not linear in any fashion. Neither is the car, it stumbles, stutters, especially out of boost. In boost I guess its blowing so much fuel it kind of masks the problem The battery voltage is up down up down up down in areas, but its only about a volt fluctuation. Playing with battery correction on the injectors changes how it acts but doesn't eliminate the issue. I tried values from .001 up to.500, in incriments of about .025 each time. I even tried .800 at one point but it ran terrible. Seems to run its best at about .450 which seems high IMO. Edited March 26, 2013 by motomanmike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OhBilly Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 It's kind of hard to tell from the sound in the video, but it does sound like it is missing. Have you pulled your plugs out and read them recently? Compression test? Head gasket? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motomanmike Posted March 26, 2013 Author Share Posted March 26, 2013 (edited) I don't have any leaks or smoke so i doubt the headgasket is bad but its possible i suppose. I'm just leaning towards fuel because of my situation. The injectors were off ebay. A full set of six, however I do not know the brand, do not know if they are matched. Just said they were for a turbo 280zx. The car, even last night when it was snowing here, fired up second crank without touching anything just turning the key so MS is right, start up and WUE is right. I did notice the car runs SMOOTH as can be during the WUE cycle, as soon as that LED goes off i hear the miss. Very strange. Not sure if its related to the drop in idle, or if its something quirky with MS or not. I will test compression again. Install new plugs and do plug readings for each cylinder. I'll let you guys know what I find. Might not be for a week or so the weather has been really crazy this week. At least the thing is back together Jackstand races are over for now. Edited March 26, 2013 by motomanmike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OhBilly Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 Can you post a screenshot of your wideband corrected VE table? Are you running wideband correction all the time? What are your wideband settings? I suspect the miss you hear when WUE turns off is due to wideband correction kicking in. It may be helpful to turn off wideband correction (and maybe revert to a non-modified VE table) for a while until you get things figured out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motomanmike Posted March 26, 2013 Author Share Posted March 26, 2013 (edited) Do you mean a screen shot of VE analyze after running the analysis? EGO step size is 0 so EGO is not affecting it. Accel enrichment is sett to %900 percent threshold so I REALLY have to mash the pedal pretty fast before it will even activate. Anything else i'm missing? I guess i'm not clear on what you mean by wideband correction? I don't see anything activating when it shouldn't on the log either looking at all the small data sets in the cells at the bottom of the log viewer. CURRENT TUNE.zip Edited March 26, 2013 by motomanmike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OhBilly Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 So you are not letting the wideband make adjustments to your VE table? You said previously that VE analyze on hard is barely changing your tune...? My point is that you should not let the wideband make any corrections to your tune while you are having trouble. Save that step for when you've got the car running pretty good beforehand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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