Lazeum Posted June 2, 2013 Author Share Posted June 2, 2013 (edited) Weather was very nice, I've been able to play more with MJLJ today.I've increased max timing as well as timing under load. Car is much more powerful than when I started. It is becoming too fast to check everything properly on open roads, even with rev limiter set at 5000rpm So far, everything turn out great, including carbs, they respond very well with no issue or what so ever, they just go. They will just run out of air above 5000rpm (32mm chokes inside), I will need bigger chokes.here's the map so far. No knock detected. All I can say is ignition system is great & really easy to set. Powerwise I might not have gained anything compared to a properly dizzy setup but power/torque during throttle transition, cruizing is by far greater than previous setup with Mallory Unilite + 6AL cdi box. I can also set total timing exactly where I'd like it to be. I'm not guessing as I was doing with dizzy, for sure I've got more power now also. On roads with curves, visibility issues where you need to slow down, cities/villages, it makes a huge difference regarding the experience with the car I've detected some conditions that could be improved where power/torque comes suddently. It shows some power/torque could be gain before torque increase event happens. So I've made another map that should address that but I haven't tested it yet. Edited June 2, 2013 by Lazeum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leon Posted June 3, 2013 Share Posted June 3, 2013 Looking good, Matt! This is the fun part. I should get a capture of my map... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edsonflores@yahoo.com Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 hello lazeum im new to this and well subscribed to this forum just on your write up and trust me ive been reading around but I cant seem to find any definitive answers please I don't wish to get burned ive been reading up on this for hours at a time trying to get info on this and it seems you have some pretty good results I am running same set up I got triple 40 dcoe carbs on 75 s30z (l28) I got everything it seems I need except 36-1 trigger wheel cant figure for the love of me which to use not trying anything to expensive as I just got out the army and unemployed just trying to get my girl going on junkyard edis also need to purchase the megajolt. I read through all comments on your post as well as many others question why did you use tps was it necessary for the edis switch also anyone know what trigger wheel to get? ive read people using the ones from escorts to explorers if possible some one guide me in right direction please don't flame or burn me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazeum Posted June 7, 2013 Author Share Posted June 7, 2013 (edited) First Welcome to the board Then, you absolutely need to put some punctuations in your messages. It is very hard to read. This is how you'll get flamed! not because you ask relevant questions. To answer your questions. I've used the EDIS trigger wheel provided with the kit I've purchased on ebay. It came from the donor car, most likely an Explorer. A friend of mine turned the pulley in a lathe to provide a good interface with the wheel. It could have been done with a pressfit but in my case, it was a loose fit. It allowed me to slide the wheel exactly in front of VR sensor, make a mark on parts, remove everything & get them welded together. I've got an offset of 2° to match what my timing light reads vs. Megajolt output. Megajolt can accept an offset of +/-5°, so it is all good. Choice between TPS & MAP. First, my cam is aggressive & I did not know how MAP reading would behave at low rpm. MAP would have required hose inlets on every runners to be optimum (Leon is running MAP on 1 runner with Cannon manifold - so it is doable. I could have done it also this way) Those are very little & simple parts but it was almost impossible to find those parts in Europe. TPS was easy to mount. I've made a small bracket, got a tps from a BMW e36 323ti with no spring loaded actuator (less stress on mechanism & bracket) and I was good to go. I've got 3 or 4 different TPS before I found the proper one. Almost every modern car is having a TPS so it should be easy to find in a junkyard. MAP would offer a better resolution than TPS to setup properly your ignition map. If you're torn between those 2 solutions, go with MAP. Either way, it is easy to change if we have to afterwards. Regarding budget, between Megajolt, EDIS, wires, brackets, fixtures, plugs, relay, fuses, etc. Total cost is close to 800€. It was not so cheap but results are great. You also need to figure out about fan; stock fan could interfere with VR sensor. I've switched to e-fan since I've already got some in my garage waiting to be installed. Others have played with fan versions to get proper clearance. Edited June 7, 2013 by Lazeum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madkaw Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 Well my Megasquirt 3x is on the way, so I am watching this thread closely. I will running spark initially for my triple Mikuni's and will be learning from you and Leon. I will be going a different route using a MAP sensor since I took the effort to run a vacuum log off of all cylinders. I also did something different as far as trigger wheel and drilled my flywheel for a missing tooth type trigger and using a Cherry hall effect sensor for the pick-up. It will be interesting to see if and how it works! I went with the 3x MS because I can run 'smart' LS1 coils and hopefully reduce the wiring. I plan to eventually go FI with my motor also, so thus the need for full ECU capability. Keep us updated Matt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazeum Posted June 7, 2013 Author Share Posted June 7, 2013 The flywheel option is very nice. Besides workmanship to get to the flywheel for sensor, I was concerned about position of those holes, sensor & TDC. Some of my friends complained about me using Megajolt instead of Megasquirt for the same exact reasons you go with Megasquirt. Good luck with your build! Mine has been a blast to drive since it hit the road again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edsonflores@yahoo.com Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 Sorry about punctuations in my spelling. well thank you matt let me start off by saying my list of parts has shrunk a bit now from what i've read. I have gotten the trigger wheel from a v6 escort, the edis module, coil, and vr sensor from a v6 explorer and a tps from a 2000 v6 mustang. so far i've looked at the trigger wheel and haven't really seen an easy way of removing the trigger wheel from the harmonic balancer without harming the trigger wheel. I tried using a press as well as a sawzall blade didn't fit between the two. as for fan im going to go same route as you or with a 1990 240sx electric fan. I have pretty much same set up as you with the exception of the rebello cam. I have cannon intake with x3 40dcoe webers on the l28 bored 30 over. any chance you have a map or the numbers you input for your tuning so I have a rough baseline I could have? sorry if I am asking too much of you like I said it just seems you have had best results with as close to similar set up I have. thank you again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazeum Posted June 11, 2013 Author Share Posted June 11, 2013 Beware with my setup, the head is custom made (ported/polished, milled, etc.). It is much more efficient than previous stock N42 head. With same bottom end, I had to decrease every jets I had in my carbs to make it runs right. Comp ratio is around 9.5, cam is made for this combo so timing is really specific to my engine. I've also posted all my maps on this topic, just look up You will also see how progress was made, starting from something safe that you can use also as a baseline. Regarding trigger wheel, I received mine already removed from the pulley. Maybe other people could help. Maybe some time in an oven help to release it... Last, punctuation is better! now you just need to make small paragraphs and it will be perfect Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edsonflores@yahoo.com Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 lol ok I get it. I also ported my head, as for jets and needles they are original couldn't tell you which one they would be. For tuning is it pretty simple straight forward? do you need to purchase any additional apps to run the tuning on the computer or does megajolt provide with purchase? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazeum Posted June 12, 2013 Author Share Posted June 12, 2013 (edited) The software is free to download (you can do it now if you'd like), just go in download section on www.autosportlabs.com Tuning is straight forward if and only if you know what you're doing. Software provided is really easy to use (even if some tweaks could be done) You also need to control what you're doing. I've got tools for it: a detcan to check for knock and a wideband sensor (Innovate LM2). If you don't know how to tune (yet!), best advice is to read books, some are really good and easy to read. Matt Cramer (member here) & Greg Banish are 2 authors with good references. Most difficult part of the install is VR sensor mount + wheel & Wiring. You need to purchase a good crimping tool, good connectors (not the cheap pre-isulated blue/red/yellow stuff) & a voltmeter. For VR mount, I've shared drawings to make your own. Same goes for wiring, I've shared the diagram. What I did not share was where to hack your stock harness to get +12V at ignition (got it at fusebox). Edited June 12, 2013 by Lazeum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edsonflores@yahoo.com Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 well thank you a lot lazeum everything you've told me it should be pretty straight forward. my dad is going to be doing electrical and tuning side of it and im going to be installing the trigger wheel and vr sensor myself. Really thank you for the advise and write up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazeum Posted June 12, 2013 Author Share Posted June 12, 2013 you're very welcome! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazeum Posted June 14, 2013 Author Share Posted June 14, 2013 (edited) Interesting findings today I've data-logged AFR. I haven't done it since MJLJ install. Car was running pretty good so I did not bother too much until now. Car before was having a cruise AFR around 14:1 and WOT @ 12.5:1 with regular dizzy and whatever timing it was. With MJLJ & last map posted, AFR @ cruise is at 12:1 - way too rich - and WOT is at 15:1 - way way too lean (but the engine still go). It's interesting to see that timing and AFR are closely related to each other. Playing with timing has a noticeable impact on AFR, both ways: rich or lean. I'm trying to understand why: - cruise is having a much more accurate and efficient timing. It should help to burn AFR properly. I guess this is why there's too much fuel now ??? - WOT, engine is more efficient, it burns fuel easier. So now engine can take more fuel and burn it ??? First easy move was to switch current 115 main jet with 125 units. AFR is back to 12.5:1/13:1 at WOT, car pulls better & it sounds a little bit healthier. Next move will be idle jets, I'll replace current 50f9 with 45f9. Without a wideband, I would say engine is properly tuned, it is responsive, there's no bog at all, it has a lot of torque to make the car moves. Car however smells rich, fuel consumption is high. If 45f9 are not enough, alternative would be 40f6 - I don't know what f6 idle jet could do... That's going to be tomorrow's task with laptop plugged to log rpm Edited June 14, 2013 by Lazeum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leon Posted June 14, 2013 Share Posted June 14, 2013 Wow, I'm surprised it made such a dramatic difference! You must've had a crappy ignition system beforehand... O2 sensors measure air (Oxygen) concentration in the exhaust stream, with respect to the atmosphere. Less O2 in the exhaust gives a richer reading, no matter how much HC, CO, or CO2 you have in your exhaust. Your meter shows a richer cruise after MJLJ install, meaning you're burning more O2 (and fuel) thus leaving less air in your exhaust stream. Your meter also shows a leaner WOT after install, meaning you're now burning more of the fuel (and O2), enough that the O2 sensor now indicates a lean mix. FWIW... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazeum Posted June 14, 2013 Author Share Posted June 14, 2013 I believe previous setup was way out of tune (whereas it felt ok). Previous NGK plugs made the reading with timing light impossible for some reasons. I'm wondering what would happen if timing is too much advanced? the burn occurs after optimal condition if ping hasn't occured. It means mix does not have full time anymore to burn. With adequate fuel mixture for ideal timing, it would make the WB02 to read the mix as being too rich. Issue would NOT be AFR too rich but timing way out instead. Looking at my logs, AFR @ WOT was actually at 16:1, Wow!!! MJLJ is also great for that. Engine will be more efficient in every way now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazeum Posted June 18, 2013 Author Share Posted June 18, 2013 here are the AFR, see how lean it goes at high rpm? it is over time on this graph with a WOT pull in 3rd gear going from 2000rpm to 6000. Lean zone exists in 2nd gear pull also leading me to believe it is not a fuel supply issue. I have changed air jet from 180 to 165 with little to no effect, which led me to believe it is not carb related (or not fully I should say). AFR were dramatically different with regular ignition dizzy system. So I'm suspecting timing as being the root cause. If timing are good, what about efficiency of carbs? I've got small chokes I need to swap with bigger units. What would be the results in AFR with too small chokes? Now, I'm wondering why, why, why Regarding timing with no knock (my case) - Proper timing: Everything burns the most efficient way, WBO2 sensor reads everything accordingly - Too much: Ignition occurs too early, time to burn everything inside cylinder is enough, pressure inside cylinder keeps rising making the burn even easier. WBO2 sensor should read mixture properly - Too few: Ignition occurs too late, pressure would become lower while burn might not have occurred fully. Some unburned fuel & air might still remain inside cylinder, WBO2 would read lean since it's tracking O2. Is it what I experience? Regarding chokes: - perfect size: Air flow rises with engine demand (VE & rpm), fuel is keeping up with demand, everything is fine. WBO2 is ready proper numbers - Too big: Air flow is having issue to go to the engine, fuel is not vaporizing as it should. This is true especially at low rpm. High rpm, mix should be ok. Not my issue - Too small: 2 hypothesis with contradictory results (the 1st one is the most plausible for me): 1- Air flow is not able to keep up with engine demand at high rpm. Consequently, Air flow is not able to bring enough fuel to the engine properly. Issue could be fixed with carb tuning by having bigger main & air jet IF they can compensate the flow restriction. WBO2 would then read lean 2- Air flow is not able to keep up with engine demand, less air goes to the engine while fuel is ok. WBO2 would read rich. I'm not sure to know what to do next so I'll experiment later this week. I'll start by playing with timing (so easy now! ) and see how it changes AFR. I'll start with less timing (less chance to knock) & go with more timing afterwards if I do not get any good conclusion with first experiment. Next step anyhow would be the chokes. My L28 with ported/polished/unshrouded head with 9.5:1 comp is definitely undercarbed with 40DCOE and 32mm chokes inside. Whatever the cause could be, the car is very nice to drive. Without AFR measurement, I would call my tune great but I know I'm not safe with AFR at 16:1 at WOT above 5000rpm. Despite lean AFR, car pulls great up to 6000rpm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leon Posted June 18, 2013 Share Posted June 18, 2013 I'm betting it's fuel/carb related. Sounds like the culprit is the emulsion tubes, since it seems to be a common characteristic of DCOEs with F-series tubes to lean out at higher RPM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazeum Posted June 24, 2013 Author Share Posted June 24, 2013 Leon, I've been playing with timing today: no change regarding my lean issue. I'm leading towards carb issue. More than tuning, I'm suspecting my too small chokes to be the root cause for the lean spot. I need to get bigger chokes & check. Anyway, car runs great otherwise & I've tuned it again today. I've increased a lot timing at cruising speed. No ping or what so ever, car is very nice to drive. I've removed 2° of timing at WOT at high rpm to check lean spot. I did not notice any difference behind the steering wheel so I've left max timing at 33° instead of 35°. To go further, I need some dyno time or new chokes . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leon Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 Dyno time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Git-y-up Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 (edited) Hey Lazeum. Thought I would show you how far I got with my setup after you and Leon convinced me to go with this EDIS setup. After evaluating your sensor bracket I thought I would take it a few steps further. Wanted to make something that was more sturdy and less likely to move/fail. Your Design is already beefy, so I used your Idea as a reference. Instead of using the bolts on the alternator side of the engine, I chose to use the AC compressor threads as mounting points. Here is what the Lead Mechanic/Machinist at Whitehead Performance built for me: phone 179 by git-y-up, on Flickr Tony did a great job using premium stock and hardware. BTW Crank dampener and trigger wheel supplied by Rebello. Edited October 24, 2013 by Git-y-up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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