ARP Head Stud Nuts=FAIL

[Ben's Z]

Well, going around to my final torque sequence on my turbo head I was torquing my head studs to 80 ft. lbs. per the ARP instructions and there it went, the 1/2" 12 point socket stripped the nut. Nut is now rounded off and won't come off the stud.  So I am somewhere between 60 and 80 ft lbs. on one of the head studs going through the cam tower.  Clearly they should have used 6 sided nuts.  Yes I used ARP supplied lubricant. Yes the socket was completely seated on the nut.  Took it in 3 steps starting at 40 than 60 than 80.  Got about 6 at 80.  I also like their disregard for stopping at 65 per the FSM for turbo apps.  Thank you ARP.  Probably no chance in hell I can back the stud out with an allen at this point. 

[stravi757]

I thought ARP's torque was 60ft.lbs. not 80?

[78zstyle]

Stravi, thats because it is. Op incorrectly tightened them and is now blaming arp. It helps to follow directions.

[NewZed]

I think those might be 12 mm nuts, not 1/2 inch.  Just looking at the internet info.  Try a 12 and start over.

 

http://arpinstructions.com/instructions/202-5406.pdf

 

Even if they are 1/2 inch, you might still be able to hammer a 12 mm on to get it out.  1/2 inch = 12.7 mm.

Edited January 19, 2013 by NewZed

[Ben's Z]

Stravi, thats because it is. Op incorrectly tightened them and is now blaming arp. It helps to follow directions.

You are really smart....  Still angry I didn't buy your turbo?  Here is the instruction sheet tool. Next response?

Edited January 19, 2013 by Ben's Z

[djz]

What are the instructions referring to at the top when they say 7/16" diameter? Not the stud and not the nut, wrong instructions?

 

Yeap, here's a link to the correct instructions from the ARP website for the 10mm studs in the kit, correct torque is 60ftlb.

 

http://arpinstructions.com/instructions/202-4206.pdf

Edited January 19, 2013 by djz

[Ben's Z]

I tried looking for the box to see what the hell I was sold, but no dice since doing some garage cleaning.  I am going to try to find the invoice.  I got them from a Uni Select jobber who gets them out of a speed warehouse in Oklahoma.  I told him to use a "1982 280zx Turbo" for the order. 

[Ben's Z]

Found my invoice I have 202-4206, but even when I put in those instructions it says to torque to 60 ft lbs.  I must have gotten the wrong instructions in the box. What a punch to the balls this is.  I am sure my head gasket is now f*cked. 

[NewZed]

It's a metric-sized engine.  Should have tipped you off when you saw 7/16", that something wasn't right. 

 

I found the 202-5406 instructions using Google and "280Z head stud" search words.  10 mm studs typically use a 12 mm bolt head or nut (sometimes 13 mm).  You got the wrong instructions.  Or the wrong studs and you cross-threaded 7/16" studs in to 10 mm holes.

 

Seems that your main problem in your engine work is picking the wrong people and trusting that they know what they're doing.  "Trust but verify" is a good old Reaganism to keep in mind.

[djz]

I have corrected the link above, it was actually for the main studs but the 10mm diameter and torque figure are still the same.

[Ben's Z]

It's a metric-sized engine.  Should have tipped you off when you saw 7/16", that something wasn't right. 

 

I found the 202-5406 instructions using Google and "280Z head stud" search words.  10 mm studs typically use a 12 mm bolt head or nut (sometimes 13 mm).  You got the wrong instructions.  Or the wrong studs and you cross-threaded 7/16" studs in to 10 mm holes.

 

Seems that your main problem in your engine work is picking the wrong people and trusting that they know what they're doing.  "Trust but verify" is a good old Reaganism to keep in mind.

I agree and it did, but I had never used ARP before for anything.  The studs threaded into the block by hand no problem.  Being "in the industry" I know how companies will consolidate part numbers, I just figured I had the correct amount of studs, nuts and washers and the box was in the shrink wrap. It probably wouldn't kill them to put the part number on the instruction sheet before they put it in the box.  Perhaps they could adopt Toyota's "Kaizen" philosophy.  I wonder if I sent scanned them my invoice and instructions they would at the very least ship me new nuts.  Hell the studs could be junk for all I know now.

[PMC raceengines]

i would not be using them after going to 80 , you have over streched them  , get a new set and follow the 10mm instructions  , all metric nuts

[78zstyle]

Sorry about my comment. Seems arp is in the wrong, not you.

[Leon]

I'm seeing a trend here...

[Tony D]

I'm with Leon, this guy hasn't done anything right from day one and has continually tried to cheap the job... I have to ask what kind of worn-out sh*t socket you were using that strips an ARP NUT!!!

 

Comedy of errors is when its funny. This process has just been sad from day one...

 

I might agree ARP might put a stamped part number on an instruction sheet, but common sense tells you these are METRIC and 7/16" is 11mm.... NOT 10! (3/8")

 

RIGHT THERE YOU STOP AND MAKE A PHONE CALL.

 

I've been doing this crap since 1979 and thats what I would have dine then, and its what I would do now.

 

It may be their fault for not putting the right sheet in one of the thousands of boxes of parts they ship every day... But it's YOUR fault for going about engine assembly with blinders on to obvious things. My old instructor would say "you go to work brain-dead, don't expect good results."

 

Its not rocket science, but you can't go about it unplugged or stoned, either!

Edited January 22, 2013 by Tony D

[duragg]

Glad I've never fucked up...

 

Hope you get it sorted. I stretched one on my N/A build but was lucky enuf to not get heckled and now I have a cool desk ornament.

[dexter72]

Have you been able to get the nut off that stud yet?. Once you do, you should still be able to get the stud out of the block.

[Tony D]

Glad I've never fucked up...

 

Hope you get it sorted. I stretched one on my N/A build but was lucky enuf to not get heckled and now I have a cool desk ornament.

Off Base.. Go back and read the history. As Leon said, there is a pattern here.

 

I don't know if it's contempt to do homework, or as I stated just going in with blinders on without a plan.

 

This could have been predicted. Sadly. The rush to find someone to blame other than oneself obviously angers me somewhat...

 

Sure, I f***ed up, and I sat back and thought LONG AND HARD about MY contribution to whatever happened. To this day I have a folded-over M8 washer hanging from monofilament on my 62 Bus to remind me that MY OWN stupidity and RUSHING things cost me A LOT MORE than had I taken a break, sat back, and THOUGHT ABOUT what I was doing.

 

I did not go blame VW for making ports that easily in jest M8 Washers...

 

If you haven't guessed I'm more of a "suck it up and learn" kinda guy, as opposed to a "blame it on everybody else" type of person. There are two sides to every industrial mishap.

 

Commenting to the counterpoint is not insinuating never having been in error. On the contrary, it's pointing out from experience one's own contribution to the event which should not be overlooked if one is to learn from it!

 

As Leon alludes, I'm betting this isn't the last we will hear on this build... The pool can start here and now: no oil pressure, valves into the pistons, knocking noise on startup, smoke, immolation? Who put what on specific "next phase" oops?

 

Slow down.

It's not a race.

Take your time.

Ask questions beforehand.

Think about what you're doing and why.

If it feels wrong, STOP!

Ask some more questions and KNOW you're doing it right before proceeding!

 

Mr. Hind, 1978 Auto I, Block IV: Engine Teardown, Analysis, & Reassembly

 

I don't think in all these years of working, IF I'd listened and FOLLOWED his sage advice, I can say the failures mechanically I've experienced would not have happened. Haste makes waste, that seems to be the root of most of it with me! I've pretty much trained myself not to rush now. It's not a race. It's a journey, enjoy the journey.

[Leon]

Off Base.. Go back and read the history. As Leon said, there is a pattern here.

 

I don't know if it's contempt to do homework, or as I stated just going in with blinders on without a plan.

 

This could have been predicted. Sadly. The rush to find someone to blame other than oneself obviously angers me somewhat...

 

Sure, I f***ed up, and I sat back and thought LONG AND HARD about MY contribution to whatever happened. To this day I have a folded-over M8 washer hanging from monofilament on my 62 Bus to remind me that MY OWN stupidity and RUSHING things cost me A LOT MORE than had I taken a break, sat back, and THOUGHT ABOUT what I was doing.

 

I did not go blame VW for making ports that easily in jest M8 Washers...

 

If you haven't guessed I'm more of a "suck it up and learn" kinda guy, as opposed to a "blame it on everybody else" type of person. There are two sides to every industrial mishap.

 

Commenting to the counterpoint is not insinuating never having been in error. On the contrary, it's pointing out from experience one's own contribution to the event which should not be overlooked if one is to learn from it!

 

As Leon alludes, I'm betting this isn't the last we will hear on this build... The pool can start here and now: no oil pressure, valves into the pistons, knocking noise on startup, smoke, immolation? Who put what on specific "next phase" oops?

 

Slow down.

It's not a race.

Take your time.

Ask questions beforehand.

Think about what you're doing and why.

If it feels wrong, STOP!

Ask some more questions and KNOW you're doing it right before proceeding!

 

Mr. Hind, 1978 Auto I, Block IV: Engine Teardown, Analysis, & Reassembly

 

I don't think in all these years of working, IF I'd listened and FOLLOWED his sage advice, I can say the failures mechanically I've experienced would not have happened. Haste makes waste, that seems to be the root of most of it with me! I've pretty much trained myself not to rush now. It's not a race. It's a journey, enjoy the journey.

 

Well put, and saved me the trouble of more typing.

[ktm]

I bent,yes BENT, 5 ARP studs on my old turbo build.  I am not talking about a slight bend, they were all leaning over 30 or so degrees from vertical.  How, do you ask, did I accomplish such a feat?  I tried to rush a job, take a short cut.  Instead of backing out the studs, I attempted to pull the head with exhaust manifold and turbo still attached.  The head locked up on the studs due to the tight clearances and when I tried to lower the head (using my hoist), it bent the studs.