2.4 worth saving?

[Jesse OBrien]

I received my 240z today (to say I'm excited is to say microbes are small), and cracked open the l24 that came with it. It's been living in a snowbank (in New England) for the past year without an intake or exhaust manifold on it, so I was expecting it to be pretty rough. When it showed up though, it didn't look too horrific, but I couldn't rotate it by hand (I still don't know what size the crank bolt is to try a breaker bar on it).

 

I popped off the valve cover, and was again surprised by how clean and oily things looked:

 

Pulling the head off, however ... was ... less encouraging.

 

Here's the chunk of ice that had formed in the oil pan. There didn't seem to be any other water or water damage anywhere but the goop on top of the #3 and #4 cylinders, but it's still not encouraging to see.

 

I flipped the block and pulled the connecting rod bottom-pieces (I don't remember what they're called) to have a look at the bearings, and they looked like they had been driven, not parked in a snowbank.

 

It's currently sitting upside-down soaking up Mystery Oil in hopes that whatever's seized will work its way loose, but I'd like to get some opinions on whether or not it's worth saving. I'm trying to get this car on the road within 10 weeks and under $2500, and that's an extremely tight budget to work with (it includes everything from the manual conversion to tool rental to WD-40 to the car itself). With that budget in mind, is this worth keeping, or should I hold out and hope like hell that a block comes up on Craigslist?

 

Is it worth hoping that I'll be able to get away with a hone, new bearings and gaskets, and a new timing chain assembly to have a decent short block? Is it possible that it's just the torque converter that's seizing it up, and I'm incorrectly assuming that the gunky-looking cylinders are keeping it from rotating? How much does it typically cost to rebuild an l24, and would someone mind saving me some search-time and recommending a vendor and/or required parts? I'm looking through the FSM, but this forum exists and is a convenient way to leverage other peoples' experience rather than researching every little thing myself.

[motomanmike]

You are probably going to need machine work.  "worth saving" isn't really something anyone can decide for you.  If its worth it to you is what you have to figure out.  Motors are fairly cheap.  Your cheapest option to get rolling will be finding a decent running motor.  The kits to rebuild are around 400-500 bare minimum without machine work.  I know there are plenty of L series NA motors out there for much cheaper.  To give you an example.  The motor currently in my first Z is a $300 ebay motor and i've flogged the crap out of it for the past 5 years.  It still runs strong.  Whatever you end up doing, save the rods. People use the L24 rods for some builds.

[Xnke]

I spent 810$ for all the bearings, new pistons, rings wrist pins, cam regrind, ARP rod bolts, complete valve job, and all the gaskets to rebuild mine. That 810$ includes the machine work to bore the block to 88mm.

 

I bought everything except for the pistons locally. Call your Nissan dealer for bearings, see if they can get you any. They're NLA in almost all the Nissan books, though. If you can't get Nissan bearings, Clevite makes them both in the standard and the 77 material, and ACL Australia makes them, as does ITM. I used Nissan bearings, for both the mains and rods, and have a set of ITM bearings on the shelf.

 

I got my ITM pistons from Northern Autoparts, came with rings and pins.

Edited March 24, 2013 by Xnke

[Jesse OBrien]

You are probably going to need machine work.  "worth saving" isn't really something anyone can decide for you.  If its worth it to you is what you have to figure out.  Motors are fairly cheap.  Your cheapest option to get rolling will be finding a decent running motor.  The kits to rebuild are around 400-500 bare minimum without machine work.  I know there are plenty of L series NA motors out there for much cheaper.  To give you an example.  The motor currently in my first Z is a $300 ebay motor and i've flogged the crap out of it for the past 5 years.  It still runs strong.  Whatever you end up doing, save the rods. People use the L24 rods for some builds.

 

"Worth saving" is relative to having 10 weeks and $2500 as a budget. In this case, it isn't subjective, it's easy to quantify in numbers. If it doesn't fit into either of those requirements, it isn't worth saving. If it gets me on the road within that budget (including all the other stuff I need to fix/buy) then it's totally worth saving. I've been keeping my eyes open on the MA/ME/VT/NH Craigslist, but have only seen one bare 2.8 short block come up and nothing else. eBay might be better, but shipping gets expensive quickly.

 

I'm trying not to make a rash decision just because no other engines are readily available at the moment. I'm hoping a $500 (or less?) runner shows up that's close enough for me to pick up in the next few weeks, but I'm hoping this is a viable alternative in case that isn't an option.

 

I spent 810$ for all the bearings, new pistons, rings wrist pins, cam regrind, ARP rod bolts, complete valve job, and all the gaskets to rebuild mine. That 810$ includes the machine work to bore the block to 88mm.

 

I bought everything except for the pistons locally. Call your Nissan dealer for bearings, see if they can get you any. They're NLA in almost all the Nissan books, though. If you can't get Nissan bearings, Clevite makes them both in the standard and the 77 material, and ACL Australia makes them, as does ITM. I used Nissan bearings, for both the mains and rods, and have a set of ITM bearings on the shelf.

 

I got my ITM pistons from Northern Autoparts, came with rings and pins.

$810 would be way out of my budget for this build, especially since I still have to source carbs, manifolds, and a transmission. I could probably get away without a valve job or a cam regrind (it's ok if it doesn't make much power for now, power is easy to add on later), but that's still a pricey option for what it is.

 

I am currently $1142.17 of my $2500 budget, but hopefully I can get some money back from selling the SBC 350 that I originally purchased in hopes of installing in this. I may also end up selling the dash and other bits and pieces that aren't required to run/drive in order to make my budgets happen. I'm being very hopeful when I say that I think I can meet this budget, but it doesn't seem very realistic when I include an engine.

[Dershum]

I have a similar story to Xnke's. The L24 that came with my Z needed quite a bit of love, but I really want to stay with an L24. After pulling the motor, I picked up a full rebuild kit from Z Car Source on sale during the holidays, ARP hardware for just about everything, a lightened flywheel/clutch from Arizona Z Car, some other choice bits from here and there, then dropped it off with a machine shop about a year and a half ago and said "let me know when it's done, and take your time". I just picked it up this past weekend, and while I likely won't be ready to drop it in until later this summer, I'm extremely pleased with the result so far, even though I'm about $3,500 total for just the motor (parts and labor).

 

I think it really all comes down to what you want to do with your car. If I really wanted to keep the entire thing on a very tight budget, I'd be doing what some of the other folks are saying and finding a complete motor that can just drop in as-is. They pop up on the for-sale section here nearly constantly, and for well under a thousand dollars in most cases.

[Jesse OBrien]

I'm not crazy about any particular engine, or even any particular layout. Right now, I'm just looking at costs. I just want to drive something that isn't my Yaris for awhile. The l24 happened to come with the car, and happens to be an easy installation (assuming it's running). I set the goal I have the way I have because it works REALLY well for me at work (I'm a software developer and systems engineer), and I've found that building things in small iterations that all technically work and get progressively better tends to be very successful.

 

I think I've sourced a complete l28 block locally for $150, which will probably be my best bet if it rotates freely and has moderate compression. I'll need a head gasket and timing chain kit, and I'll have to figure out how to set my timing from scratch ... but that will be the long block assembly, basically. Then I get to start hunting for a distributor/manifolds/alternator/belts/carbs/starter/etc to actually get it running, and plop it in the engine bay.

[Xnke]

If you want to make that budget happen, you need to find a complete, running car and pull the engine out of it. Trying to do this piece by piece isn't going to come out NEARLY as cheap as buying it complete.

 

That cam looks like it has some rust on the tops of some of the lobes. If it does, it will have to be polished, at a minimum, or reground at the most.

 

The bores will probably be OK if you can get the crap out of them, the bearings look fine. Break those pistons loose and pop them out the top of the block and check for broken rings, and check the bores for out of round.

[Tony D]

I had an l28 that went through numerous typhoons sitting outside under a tarp.

Freed it with WD & Lacquer Thinner.

 

Had stuck oil control rings, but it was drive able. Ran the hell out of it, eventually all the oil rings but #5 totally freed, and even then #5 to better with time.

 

We're I to do it again, i'dsimply buy a set of ARP Rod bolts, pull the pistons and clean the rings, reassemble and run it.

 

Theses engines rarely require the parts people throw at them.

[Jesse OBrien]

I freed the pistons, but it was bad news bear from there on out. The cylinder walls are badly scored, and #5 and #6 are badly pitted. This little guy isn't worth saving for me.

 

 

However, I have a couple l28's to choose from, one that needs assembly with a 4spd for $240 delivered and the other complete with a 5spd for $750 (but 2.5 hours away). If I can talk a friend with a truck into hiking down to CT with me, I'll grab the runner (it's the simplest solution to my current no-powertrain problem) but I'm not against assembling an l28 with an e88 head on top. I ran a quick search, but still need to ask: Why keep the l24 rods? Are they stronger/longer/better/lighter than l26/l28 rods?

 

Edited March 24, 2013 by drummingpariah

[BluDestiny]

Some L24 rods come with 9mm rod bolts which are stronger and they are also longer.They are used to build stroker engines. You won't be able to use them in the L28 without machine work, but you can sell them for a decent amount. 

[Tony D]

They're longer at 133mm vs 130mm for most others.

The 9mm bolts are stronger than the earlier 8mm bolts, but no stronger than what came in any other L-Series after a given date.

Mostly moot, since you use em once and toss em... Take em out and put some ARP's. those are the stronger bolts!

 

They're right...you can sell em, just determine which bolts you have so you can sell informed...

 

Get some overhead in that budget.

[Jesse OBrien]

It looks like the 'needs assembly' one is already together, rotates, and apparently came out OK on a compression test. It's a no-brainer from my perspective; That's the engine that fits this stage of the build best.

 

Tony, assuming I sell the SBC and get my money back out of it, I still have $1566.87, minus the $240 engine would be $1326.87 to get the rest of the car ready to go (exhaust, carbs/manifold, hard lines, brakes, body welding, etc). There's a little bit of overhead planned into that, but not much. If I absolutely need to I can go over budget, but the point of this budget is to make sure I only focus on bare essentials for right now. I don't want to get hung up on little details that are inconsequential at this stage of the car's life.

[BluDestiny]

Body welding is not an essential unless your car is breaking in half. Do you weld? You'll save a lot of money if you can weld up your own exhaust, my friend literally made one by going to exhaust shops and getting their scrap pipes and welding it himself. Carbs shouldn't cost you more than $200 complete. and hardlines can be bent for like $50 for every hardline if you do it yourself. 

 

Making this stuff pretty and cleaning up/ buying new parts (like the hardline retainers for example) are what really kill the budget. 

[Tony D]

Body Welding...

My buddy spent $1,300 in 1979 doing rust repair on his '69 Monza Coupe.

In 1989, I bought a '66 Corsa Turbo for $1,600.

Had we thought outside our diseased Michigan-Raised box... We would have made Tony & Torre's Most Excellent Corvair Road Trip!

 

 

Argh! Never again!

[Jesse OBrien]

Body welding is not an essential unless your car is breaking in half. Do you weld? You'll save a lot of money if you can weld up your own exhaust, my friend literally made one by going to exhaust shops and getting their scrap pipes and welding it himself. Carbs shouldn't cost you more than $200 complete. and hardlines can be bent for like $50 for every hardline if you do it yourself. 

 

Making this stuff pretty and cleaning up/ buying new parts (like the hardline retainers for example) are what really kill the budget. 

 

Body welding is absolutely required in NH to pass safety inspections every year. There can't be any holes into the passenger cabin that a quarter can fit into. I would weld, but I'm stuck in a rental garage without proper electricity, and it shorts out as soon as I fire up the little Chicago Due Mig I have.

 

As for exhaust, I can probably get away with a Summit bend kit and just clamp it all together. It's a temporary solution, but it fits into the budget and will last me a year while I sort out a more permanent solution.

 

I just caught myself starting to ask what you'd recommend for a hard line bending tool, but realized that I'm getting way off topic. I'm going to pose those questions in my build thread rather than the "what to do with a dead engine" thread. To make things a bit easier, here's the correct thread for those questions:

http://forums.hybridz.org/topic/111893-1973-240z-build/

[BluDestiny]

Wow I did not know that new england states are that strict. I knew about the inspections in New jersey, but I thought it was all mechanical, not superficial.

[Jesse OBrien]

It's supposed to keep you from asphyxiating on exhaust fumes, but the lawmakers who put that in place have OBVIOUSLY never been in an s30. Otherwise, they'd know that no matter how sealed you make it, you're still going to suck exhaust.

 

NH's smog regulations are relatively lax, but the safety requirements are high. You're required to have functional suspension, tires that have tread and fit your wheels, brakes that have a good chance of stopping the vehicle, at least one seat, seatbelts for all the seats you have, a horn, working lights, an un-cracked windshield, an in-tact chassis, and a baffled muffler (resonators do not count). There can't be any excessive fluid leaks, and I'm sure there's more that I'm missing, but in a nutshell: You are not allowed to endanger anyone else due to your lack of maintenance.

[nismosilvia]

You can come pull the efi l24 out of my parts 810 ha

[Tony D]

German TUV and Japan have similar perforation requirements. Universally they are taken care of by putting metal tape on the holes and then body undercoating heavily to hide evidence of any repairs.

 

You then repair when it suits you. That repair will work just as good as welding. And if it's TUV passable, it's 1,000,000 times better than any stateside 'safety' inspection.

 

Not to get political, but surveys have repeatedly shown absolutely NO correlation between states with safety inspections and any statistical impact on mechanical-related deaths or injuries. They are identical between inspection and non-inspection states. Somewhere around 4% of all accidents involve a mechanical failure.

 

Really, all it does is force people into garages that can get the inspection franchise for the state to give them business. And I'm sure bribery to pass is common. What are the penalties for a shop caught passing "unsafe" vehicles, and how is it quantified? It's all subjective, and people (as in any state with safety inspections) know where to go to "get the easy pass."

 

Now, you want a REAL brake check? TUV/Holland...puts your car on a rolling road with wheel dynoes, and when you hit the brakes if there is a 3% variance side-to side you FAIL! No soup for you!

 

Something about being let into the Bar-Under 200 Lane on the A1 I suppose...

 

Conversely, though, there is a statistical correlation with Emissions Testing and cleaner air. And at least in CA, even when bribery was possible it STILL cleaned the air. It's much more Difficult these days to get a 'easy pass' or 'clean pipe' simply from the sting operations and PUNITIVE fines and penalties imposed on the techs doing the work.... Bigtime hammer falls!

 

I took an out-of-state truck into be smog tested in January... Tech was an older guy, is real interested in what I have in back says "What's in the back of the truck?"

 

"BAR90 SMOG Machine"

 

Took me 1 1/2 hours to get my test done! Guy checked, rechecked, then rechecked AGAIN everything. I mean, the truck was CLEAN (as in 0.0 on NOx!) for a Federal Emissions Vehicle, I piped clean to CA standards, and he was SURE I was a Sting Plant. Poor Guy!  I just needed a Smog to get my registration...which  I still don't have... but let's not GO THERE!

[kiwi303]

Welcome to what most of the western world have to deal with, NZ has the same basic thing, car Warrant of Fitness, or WoF checks.

 

every 6 months we have to get our cars checked against a list of required performance settings. If they pass, we get a sticker in the window. If you fail, you can't drive it anywhere except home from the testing station or from home to the testing station after repair.

 

The UK has the MOT test.

 

Japan has something in kanji, same idea.

 

Australia the same...

 

So does Germany...

 

Even Ukraine has it.

 

China has it. Every year you troop down to the test centre, they make sure your car won't endanger other road users, and pay your vehicle tax.At least in chinas case a few Yuan tucked into your vehicle ownership papers handed to the tester means you get the approval, never mind the state of the car.

 

Yet most of the US doesn't. From what I hear, if it runs, they let it on the road....  You just gotta have insurance to cover your ass when it breaks in half on the interstate and causes a pileup.

 

You're required to have functional suspension, tires that have tread and fit your wheels, brakes that have a good chance of stopping the vehicle, at least one seat, seatbelts for all the seats you have, a horn, working lights, an un-cracked windshield, an in-tact chassis, and a baffled muffler (resonators do not count). There can't be any excessive fluid leaks, and I'm sure there's more that I'm missing, but in a nutshell: You are not allowed to endanger anyone else due to your lack of maintenance.