Anyone have FIA documentation of EFI for the Z?

[josh817]

I know Nissan and others were using fuel injection whether it be mechanical or electronic in the early 70's. I'm looking for FIA documentation of these systems on Z's before 1973 for a local race group.

 

Links or photos to information are welcome.

 

Thank you.

 

This is what I scavenged from here, several years ago. Think they may have come from Alan? Not sure

 

 

 

Edited November 20, 2013 by josh817

[tamo3]

Top 2 photos are LY engine for 240ZR and the last one is s20 for 432Z.

Sorry no info regarding FI.

Edited November 20, 2013 by tamo3

[Xnke]

Top two photos show the Nissan ECGI analogue electronic fuel injection system; third photo looks to be a Lucas slider mechanical injection;

 

Bottom photo appears to be the Lucas mechanical injection system on the S20?

Edited November 20, 2013 by Xnke

[johnc]

I have the 3023 docs throught 1973. No FI system was homologated for Group 3 or 4.

[josh817]

John, I don't know enough about FIA rules to understand why these systems were used in Japan, rallies, and I thought Le Mans at one point?

 

I suppose they had nothing to do with FIA. Figured they were being homologated with the E4622 "LY" head.

[HS30-H]

Yes, they are all photos / scans that I have put on HybridZ in the past, including the scan of the FIA homologation page for the LY head.

 

Nissan 'ECGI' ( Electronically Controlled Gas Injection ) systems were allowed under FIA Groups 4 and 5, and also as a special dispensation in Group 3 in certain FIA sanctioned rally events. These parts didn't need to be specifically homologated, but the cylinder heads they were designed to be used on ( the E4621 'Safari' / 'FIA' head and the 'LY' / 'Crossflow' head ) did, and were.

 

The Lucas-based mechanical ( sliding throttle ) fuel injection seen on the S20 engines in the first post ( both on works KPGC10 race cars, incidentally ) were used in JAF sanctioned Touring Car races, and in certain JAF GT and Prototype classes ( in the 432R, for example ). Sometimes these races were run under JAF-tweaked international FIA rules, so a little bit of a fudge in scrutineering.

 

So, ECGI technically FIA legal ( although strict conformation would require use of the original type analogue control box / 'computer' ) in some classes / periods, and Lucas-derived / similar mechanical injection FIA illegal.... except in classes where the car would doubtless be uncompetitive anyway.   

[johnc]

Thanks Alan.

[josh817]

Thank you for the information, Alan. I'm sure it's going to be a hoot trying to explain the heads were homologated but not the injection systems.

 

Our local race group use to be very open to vintage cars, when they first started. Once they had a however many racers, they then decided to get very strict with whats allowed, subsequently losing many racers. Over the past 10 years racers have been bailing do to the strictness, compounded by the market woes.

 

It's easier to work with them though... and provide documentation of EFI's existence. Currently, with their strict rules, to get away with not taking any points but still running you either have to be popular with the higher-ups or have lots of money. They're trying to keep it as authentic as possible and I can respect that but they're letting some go out with stuff that is in no way legal, just because they have a rare or very nice car. 1980's Formula Atlantic cars, 1980's Porsches, MG's prepped to current day SCCA rules, in a sanctioning body that claims "1972 or older".

 

Their strictness is showing in their racer turnout. They will have to be more lenient unless they want to continue to dwindle.

[HS30-H]

Their strictness is showing in their racer turnout. They will have to be more lenient unless they want to continue to dwindle.

 

Well, don't get distracted trying to replicate what the factory did or being some kind of idealist.

 

I like the trick factory parts - perhaps more than most - but it's more forensic and carchaeological than anything else these days. If you want to run with the big boys you will need to match their free time, their budgets and their pragmatic interpretation of the rules ( read: cheating ), as well as the fact that the manufacturers of their chosen cars did a better job of homologation 40-odd years ago. 

 

If you want to be competitive you'd probably find that your time and money was better spent in maximising basic setup and ( especially ) in some intensive driver tuition.

[josh817]

The club is mainly for fun. Real nice group of people, your trophy at the end of the season is made from the parts your car puked on the track. Not really serious racing so I don't care about points or where I place, but I want to run cars of similar era. In my mind that alone should please everyone, knowing that I won't receive any points regardless of if I'm ridiculously quick or very slow (more than likely). But again... sometimes they tell you theres no chance of running, or if you have a nice cheater car they'll say come on in but you don't get any points. If the speed difference is too much they will throw you into another group. Our group 1 which is all A-Prod muscle cars has the '80's Porsche in it since it's running FIA rules, and a some sort of Lola. I wouldn't be surprised if C-Prod cars that are too quick in their group and running a different rule set were sent to Group 1.

 

Even if I were able to get my hands on FIA papers or showed them the images above, they would more than likely say sure you can run it but it has to be that EFI system with that engine. Good luck, but at least it makes it look like I tried to play ball before I start asking for favors. That's actually why some are leaving. When things break on some of the cars, they can't find replacements so they want to find a modern equivalent which mucks up the water in administration.
Datsun 5 speeds would be one of them. If you go in with the proper close ratio box, break it, and replace it with a regular 5 speed, according to the rules that's a no go.

 

Long story short, I don't have an ECGI system but I'm doing something similar.

Edited November 20, 2013 by josh817

[johnc]

My friend and past co-driver took his SCCA legal, 2,435 lb., drum rear brakes, 14 x 7" wheel, 190hp 2.4L ITS 240Z to a VARA event here in SoCal about six years ago.  He won CP beating 300+ hp 240Zs and 2.4L 911s.  Bryan was regional ITS champ mutiple years in extremely competitive fields.

ITS NOT THE CAR!

[Tony D]

I won't say who....but there is a team that runs at Spa 6 Hours Historic... Lap Times close to the GT350's if not GT40's when they put their "Ringer" driver in for the night section of driving... all from a '2.4 Liter' 240Z.

 

Coming down the straight into Eau Rouge, that engine is MAYBE turning 6,800, the sound of a big bore L-Series compared to a competitive L24 is quite distinct....

 

One day, in their garage stall, I asked about the F54 Block and Freeze Plug Configuration and they were INSISTENT that it was an "L24" to which I smiled and chuckled politely.

 

After that, they closed the garage on both ends and didn't let spectators in any more...

 

The scruitneers know externals, and until you win, and someone protests you for a teardown there is nothing anybody can say other than 'it's an L24'!

 

As for gearboxes, unless they have a way to prove it's not what you say it was....how do they know it's not a comp box (which was nothing more  than a box out of a truck!)?

 

Some current competitors are running the KA Internals by switching the bellhousings. Why? Because quaife and JDM suppliers have nice straight-cut boxes made for the Sylvia gearbox. Externally it looks the same. Grab a number/letter punch and stamp a part number on the thing and say "LOOK LOOK! There's the part number!"

 

Or would that be considered "pragmatic interpretation"?

Edited November 21, 2013 by Tony D

[josh817]

John, the only reason why I won't sway towards the rules is because I have already taken steps in a certain direction. Right now I am still teetering on whether I should continue on with 3100cc or if I should spare the crank for my own sake and use an L24 or L28 crank, something that is more readily available. I would hate to crack or break several V07 cranks while I'm getting my **** together.

 

 

And Tony, I know exactly what you are talking about. Although this group is strict, they aren't strict enough to pump a motor. They say they will but it is very doubtful considering there are cars out there that are obviously well out of the bounds, from wheel flares to aluminum heads. The only guy I know who thought it would be best to be honest about his Toyota gearbox in his British car was zapped. He did it because the crappy British gearboxes kept breaking, and he is consistently last anyway.

 

Tony, do you ever wonder why a BMW 2002 would need 8 spark plug wires (with only 4 hooked up), 3 coils, and a distributor?

 

And who is Electramotive? Do they make voltage regulators or something?

[johnc]

I'm a SCCA National Scrutineer and do annual techs on about two dozen cars a year. Two years ago a guy made an appointment for me to do a new annual (detailed inspection, issue the logbook , etc.) on his ITS 240z.

 

He shows up and gets kinda flustered when he sees the 240zs in the shop that I'm working on. Asks me if he can reschedule which is odd because he was pushing me to get the appointment ASAP. I convince him to go ahead.

 

He openes the hood and I look at the engine. L28 with 2" SUs on a 1972 240z. I say nothing, go thoroughly the complete tech with him telling me how great a racer and fabricator he is. I stamp the serial number on the roll cage and then fill out his log book (picture and everything.)

 

I then proceed to fill out two pages in the log book with everything illegal on the (there was a lot) and note that all of this had be fixed before he races with SCCA in the ITS class. He was pissed. Boy was he pissed. Spit on the ground in front of me pissed. Told him "have a nice day and Ill see you at the track - or not."

 

I heard from an Arizona region tech that he towed the car there to get an annual but they wouldn't do it because he couldn't produce the log book that matched his newly stamped roll cage serial number. He also tried the same in the SFR regional with a newly ground and painted roll cage but the word was out then.

[Tony D]

"I heard from an Arizona region tech that he towed the car there to get an annual but they wouldn't do it because he couldn't produce the log book that matched his newly stamped roll cage serial number. He also tried the same in the SFR regional with a newly ground and painted roll cage but the word was out then. "

 

This is universal across job trades!

I got a phone call one time to verify someone's job application (touchy subject) person in question was a 'resign or be fired/prosecuted' situation.

Phone call goes like this: "Got an applicant for this job, has XYZ Company on it. You worked for XYZ then, didn't you?" (not actually calling me when I still worked with them)...

Yeah.

"Is he the one?"

Yeah.

"Thanks, good bye."

 

He knew what it was. I know what it was. The applicant knew what it was. Apparently the second interview went something like "So while at XYZ there was this incident, do you know anything about it?"

 

He answered "No"

 

Another applicant got the job. 

 

Nobody likes a liar. Grinding the cage and trying again....oooooooh.... talk about persistence! That will get the word out fast. If you want to cheat, at least be creative so the scrutineers will tell stories about you and how proud they were to actually catch it!

 

LOL