RebekahsZ Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 The purpose of this thread is to consolidate a couple of threads that are going on here on hybridz and on LS1.tech. Mistafosta and SunnyZ have described oilng trouble due to either wheelies or just acceleration sloshing oil to the back of the pan. My oil pressure seems down after a trip to AMP with lots of sustained lateral loading of the car, I'm concerned that while nothing catastrophic occurred, I may have opened up some bearing clearances. I'm hoping this can be a thread where folks in the know can contribute, and that folks who are not beating their cars this hard will just sit on their keyboards and not clutter this up with speculative comments like I see on LS1tech. I'm hoping contributors can be specific to a actual racing, be it NHRA/IHRA or road racing like NASA, SCCA or the like, so guys with that kind of experiences, PLEASE contribute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RebekahsZ Posted October 12, 2014 Author Share Posted October 12, 2014 First, there seems to be a cost/complexity continuum from stock, to special pans and baffles, to Accusump, to dry sump. Not only does cost go up, but so does maintenance and labor requirements, not only when you build it, but also when you drive it. Baffling is cheap and passive once installed. With the Accusump, the car has to be started and shutdown in a certain order, or it gets messy-seems like something I personally could screw up easily. A dry sump system looks like a very serious commitment in time, money, and fabrication complexity. Can we talk a bit about the pros and cons of each supplemental oiling system? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
260DET Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 (edited) Friend of mine who builds and modifies historic race cars like Alfas and Fiats swears by oil accumulator systems like Accusump but a one way valve must be used for them to be effective. He has seen several 'engine fail before no fail after' examples and recommends Accusumps for all the cars he prepares. My system uses the electric valve option with an on off switch on the dash. All I have to remember to do is turn it on immediately before the first start of the day and turn it off while the engine is still running at the end of the day. An indicator light helps. There is also a bright red light that comes on when the electric valve opens which of course acts as a warning if it comes on while out on the track. But my LS has not run in anger yet so no contribution there. It seems to me that with the LS the primary problem is restricted oil drainback but that's speculation so I'll shut up. Edited October 13, 2014 by 260DET Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RebekahsZ Posted October 13, 2014 Author Share Posted October 13, 2014 That's great info-explaining what the driver has to do. How would you operate the Accusump if you were just tooling to work in the morning, what's the sequence? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 (edited) I've never seen the electric valve on an accusump ever used other than at starting and stopping time. The accumulator bladder pushes oil into the system when below the preset pressure, and recharges when oil pressure recovers. An electric valve operating only when low would totally defeat the purpose of the accusump by preventing it's recharging automatically in-use. Usually warning lights are set below the accusump charge level ( mine was 30 psi in the accumulator, with a red light on a Hobbs switch at 7psi) red light=TROUBLE The electric valve or manual ball valve operation is the same: on before you start while cranking to prelube/buffer the bearings, and close the valve before you shut down. I hold RPMs up to have 30psi on my gauge, close the accusump valve, then shut down. In a run to the store...I don't bother turning it on unless the car has been sitting forever. I close it while it's still at fast idle, and off I go. It only stays on while I'm on-track or getting frisky. If you have radical compression, prelube/cranking assist is a nice way to go! Edited October 13, 2014 by Tony D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RebekahsZ Posted October 13, 2014 Author Share Posted October 13, 2014 A car with an Accusump got his shutdown-turn on sequence screwed up and pumped oil on his headers and made a little mess and everybody thought he had an engine fire. How would that happen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 If you turn the engine off with the accusump open, the pressure in the accusump pushes the 2 or 3 extra qts of oil into the engine. 2 or 3 qts to the top end could cause a bit of a leak on the headers. FWIW, there is a bit of a dispute about the electric valve vs manual valve. My understanding of the arguments are that the manual valve has a lot better flow, while the electric valve will hold more pressure in the accusump and so the reserve pressure will last longer if you are needing it. After reading a bunch of stuff arguing both ways, I went with a manual valve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
260DET Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Off track the Accusump with an electric valve can be turned on or off, your choice. One procedure is to turn it on immediately before starting so oil in the accumulator gives the engine a pre lube before starting. Once the engine has started and the accumulator has recharged I would usually turn it off so it's good to go for the next start. On track I really like the warning light idea, the valve is set at 45PSI so if oil pressure drops below that the light comes on. Be interesting to see how the LS3 lube system stands up on the track with the warning light as a indicator of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RebekahsZ Posted October 14, 2014 Author Share Posted October 14, 2014 If Accusump is considered, should one install a good oil pan baffle system too, or does the Accusump remove concerns of a dry pick-up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage42 Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Before I run my car at Sebring, I am definitely looking at adding the baffles to my pan. There are LS motors (mostly C6 Corvettes) that blow nearly every track day at Sebring, so better safe than sorry! These guys make some nice stuff. http://www.improvedracing.com/baffles/ls1-camaro-firebird-body-racing-oil-pan-baffle-p-30.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 I also have a baffled pan (Kevko pan, not an insert, but same effect) and the Accusump. You could add a crank scraper on there too for a little more insurance. If you're still having trouble with all of that, it's dry sump time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RebekahsZ Posted October 14, 2014 Author Share Posted October 14, 2014 So here's the million-dollar question: how do you know when you are having "trouble?" and need to upgrade your oiling? Do you count how many sets of main bearings you fry in a season? Do you monitor oil pressure, somehow paying attention to the gauge as you are charging through a sweeper at 130mph? Or do you have to have some sort of data-logger that you can print off a continuous oil pressure tracing? I was kind of thinking about upgrading just for my peace of mind, but I don't know how extensive/expensive I really need to go. I think, for me, at least improved baffling is a good place to start. But is that really enough? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage42 Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Jon, I appreciate the added input. I guess since I'll have the pan off to add the baffles, I might as well spend the extra $73 for the crank scraper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Warning light as described by Tony is the best way IMO, Keith. A datalogger might tell you after the fact, but I'd rather know I'm destroying my engine when I'm destroying my engine... http://www.jegs.com/i/Auto+Meter/105/3240/10002/-1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage42 Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 http://www.crank-scrapers.com/What%20is%20a%20crank-scraper.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
260DET Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Just be careful using an Improved Racing scraper. I got one for my crate LS3 and it did not fit properly, eventually junked it Apparently there is not a one size fits all LS scraper which I think IR now recognise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RebekahsZ Posted October 16, 2014 Author Share Posted October 16, 2014 Any reviews on their baffles? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage42 Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 I will check with them on the scraper, as I'm sure an issue like that would have been remedied fairly quickly. I've seen & have heard many positive reviews on their baffles. They are located here in Florida and I saw & talked to them at a muscle car show at Disney last year. Nice quality products!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage42 Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 Also, their shop/demo car is a nice LS powered 3rd gen RX7. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RebekahsZ Posted October 18, 2014 Author Share Posted October 18, 2014 OK guys, thanks so much for your input, and please don't stop-this is just what I needed. The car (and situation) I'm going to be applying this discussion (this time) has a stock LS2 motor and I plan to keep it that way and only road course it a couple times a year-not enough to really become good enough driver to drive it at the limit that many of you would be capable of. Getting more specific to my situation: I only get to a road course a couple times a year; my lifestyle will not allow for racing pursuits to the level of getting a racing license or trying to chase points or anything like that. So, I'm limited to HPDEs and the like, mostly receiving instruction as a student driver. My tracks for now will be AMP and perhaps Barber. From your advice (and the way I've seen Mikelly fight gremlins in a sophisticated oiling system), I'm planning to add a trap-door baffle system and a warning light from the suppliers you fellas have recommended. I think I can do all that without yanking the motor and I'm going to be doing a bellhousing this winter and will be under there anyway. I will get some decent gauges too. Will add a scraper next time I have the engine out and on a stand not fighting a crossmember. I hope to let the warning light tell me when I need an Accusump, praying that my first illumination isn't accompanied by disaster. 1) To what psi should I set the warning light? I'm assuming we want it to come on when I'm at high rpm, but not at idle... 2) What are your opinions on oil temperature monitoring and oil coolers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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