Enkei Apache II wheels. Is anyone running them?

[Zetsaz]

Is anyone running them? Any issues with brakes or suspension, etc...?

 

I've seen them for sale on MSA and they seem like a stock looking alternative to the four spoke wheels that came stock with 280z's, but I've only ever seen them on the one car that MSA has pictured.

 

 

 

 

 

[Randomcow]

I have them on my car, no issues with brakes or suspension. I have rear disc setup, so not sure with drums. 20mm spacers on rear. These are the 0 offset model.

 

[Michael]

For some reason, Enkei Apache-II wheels are not popular choices on this Forum, though from an aesthetic viewpoint (obviously subjective) and available offset/hub-diameter/bolt-circle they seem like an obvious choice.  A search reveals surprisingly few threads; a useful recent one is http://forums.hybridz.org/topic/115886-widest-wheels-without-flares/?hl=apache&do=findComment&comment=1086532 .

 

One detriment to the Apache wheels is their comparatively high weight.  For this reason, I prefer the similarly-styled Rota X04, which are lighter, but are even less common and less widely known.  I'm looking at the X04s in 15x8, zero offset, to run a 15" drag slick (obviously in the rear) on a non-lowered (and if anything, elevated) S30.

[310z]

I know nothing about the wheel and how it fits, although it looks good. However, it looks heavy as Michael noted. A lot of mass on the outer wheel. The Enkei -92 size 15x7 I use to have weighed 13.5 lb. The BBS Magneisum race wheels I run sized 16x8 are 12.5 lb. In my opinion for a Z, if a wheel is near 15 lb. you need to consider something else. Looks are not everything.

[Michael]

 In my opinion for a Z, if a wheel is near 15 lb. you need to consider something else. Looks are not everything.

While I can't correlate a particular wheel-mass to this or that detriment in performance, I wholeheartedly agree that lighter-is-better.  But as we've ubiquitously noted, choices are not broad, and are getting narrower every year.  How many cars are running 4x114.3 with our backspacing and hub-diameter?  I'm amazed at the plethora of options for the the NA/NB Miata, and am equally amazed how most of those manufacturers are unable to produce a wheel with Z specifications.

 

In recent threads there's been mention of Spinwerkes (one word, or two?) wheels.  They appear to be out of production.  The same fate was met by several other niche manufacturers.  Weld and Centerline?  Good luck getting our bolt-pattern and hub diameter.  Local machine shops won't even touch custom redrilling.  Where does that leave us?

 

Meanwhile, a 5-lug conversion - just at the rear - is at least a $1000 proposition, if properly done.  This is in addition to any upgrade of the brakes or half-shafts.

 

Frankly, I'm baffled as to why this hasn't emerged as a serious problem in the performance S30 community.  Am I overlooking something glaringly obvious? 

[RebekahsZ]

Don't worry about the weight-get what looks good.

[seattlejester]

My issue with them is that their offset design is flawed. They sell them in a relatively high offset, 25+ I think to fit Honda's and such, and they offer a 0 offset which seems to be a perfect fit for us. However instead of moving the face back and adding dish, they just added material on the hub to extend that backwards. That makes it look like you are running huge spacers even though you aren't and that really doesn't do it for me. Part of the fun of the older cars with 0 offset is to have a bit of dish in play, at least aesthetically. I prefer the SSR MK2 pretty much for that reason.

[Zetsaz]

Makes sense. Thanks for the feedback. I was just curious why I hadn't seen more people with them and was hoping to see some examples. Right now I'm actually leaning more towards Rota Grid Classics. (Can't really justify the cost of real TE37's just yet...)

[Michael]

It seems to me that part of the issue is that persons inclined towards moderate-cost wheels, who for whatever reason place priority on fashion over function, choose larger diameters.  Paradoxically, this (1) reduces the options in smaller-diameters, by curtailing demand, and (2) improves the breed for the higher diameters, so that oddly it is the higher-diameter options that are becoming the more functional.

 

In the 17+ world, there are some cast wheels and forged wheels of impressive quality.  We don't need to resort to marginal knock-offs of Minilites or other storied "classic" designs. In 15" diameter, especially for our backspacing, bolt-pattern and hub diameter, we are limited to literally a handful of offerings.  The Enkei Apache-II is one of them.

 

BTW, I am unaware of non-knockoff 4-spoke wheels in 15" diameter, at ANY price, from any manufacturer or vendor.  The "originals" on which is based the Rota X04 are, from what I gather, no longer in production.  Hayashi makes a fine 8-spoke (see for example http://www.hayashiracingusa.com/products/wheel/cr/typecr.html), while Rays makes impressive 6-spoke wheels.

 

I've not run the finite-element analysis, but it seems to me that a 4-lug bolt pattern would have less stress concentrations, and therefore higher stiffness to weight ratio, with 4 spokes.  But maybe I'm woefully mistaken, as manufacturers don't seem to agree.

[seattlejester]

...I think you are confused?

 

The Enkei Apache II is a revision of their prior Apache I design released many many years ago. While it may be similar in design to other more reputable wheels such as the SSR Mk2, I believe it has distinct differences, and Enkei is an actual company with their own designs and OEM affiliation. 

 

On the other hand Rota is known for borrowing heavily from others, the parent company may have in the past or still make OEM wheels and as such the wheels stand up to certain certifications, but the rota brand as we know it is known for borrowing or making very slight alterations in design. Nothing wrong with that, but saying that the Apache II is a knock off of the X04 is quite misleading. I think the X04 is still being sold and was released quite recently, so if you were to make a comparison between the wheels (which is difficult as the only similarity is 4 spokes, the apache having a more solid design while the X04 is tapering at the ends) it can't be "original" as it was released after the Apache I. And If anything the X04 is a knock off of the Hayashi Racing Takechi Projects, not the Apache I.

[Zetsaz]

Michael, you also forget that not all of us can afford to drop $2k+ on a set of lightweight wheels....

[Hypertek]

Too bad they arent multi piece. Great looking wheels for sure. Very oldschool japanese. Good thing about enkei is they aren't a knock off like Rota.

Edited October 20, 2015 by Hypertek

[Michael]

We seem to have a miscommunication here.  I'm not pitting Enkei against Rota, other than perhaps to observe that at least according to the advertised numbers, the X04s weigh about 2 pounds less than the Apache-II's.  Rather, my point is that (1) both are "knockoffs" and both are cast wheels, and (2) there is no 15" 4-spoke alternative that is truly forged and still available from its original designer.

 

So even if by some stroke of extravagant stupidity I chose to drop $2K per wheel - let alone per set! - on forged 15" 4-spoke wheels that fit the S30, I'd be out of luck!

 

Plan B is 5-lug conversion (because 5-spoke wheels are ubiquitous), which isn't all that complicated for the front end.  For the rear however it involves either a dicey and unreliable redrilling of the stub axles, or completely new stub axles - which aren't all that expensive, but trigger a cascade of other mods that one may not necessary wish to do.

[seattlejester]

Very plausible, my post was in regards to your statement:

"BTW, I am unaware of non-knockoff 4-spoke wheels in 15" diameter, at ANY price, from any manufacturer or vendor.  The "originals" on which is based the Rota X04 are, from what I gather, no longer in production."

 

My clarification was that the Rota X04 are still in production, Apache II are not copying the Rota X04, and finally, Rota X04 is actually not original in that design (the hayashi racing takechi projects have the original shape of that design, although my wheel history only goes to japan, that design could have been borrowed from something european for all I know).

 

I suppose you could have meant for the statement to read..."The wheels that the Rota X04 are based on, are no longer available, thus you can only purchase 4 spoke wheels in 15 inch from manufacturers such as Enkei or Rota which make knock off wheels." Even that statement has fallacies. My point is just because they use their own classic design does not make them a knock off. 

 

Regarding your points. 

Point 1. Enkei are not knock off wheels, but yes apache II and most rota wheels are most likely cast.

Point 2. Not really, you could in fact still buy forged wheels from original designers if you had the money. Heck at 2k per wheel you could have your own custom design. Not sure why your average guy needs forged wheels though. However several names come to mind, HRE, AFD, several companies exist actually that do just such a task. If you were going for a 3 piece or a 2 piece wheel you wouldn't even need to go to a wheel manufacturer per say you could have it machined by a machine shop and bolt it to the correct barrel.

 

Also to further clarify your later statement on 5-lug conversion. You could do the redrilled stub axles, I'm not sure why you are implying that is dicey and unreliable, it has been offered for quite a lot of time with no complaints I have heard of, in fact some wheel manufacturers used to offer their wheels with a similar pattern. If one decided to go to 5 lug by buying another stub axle that would only require a drum or rear disc re-drill, I'm not sure where a cascade comes from unless you decided to up the axle splines and convert the CV axles and get a 5 lug disc brake kit, but you really don't need to.

 

I'm not trying to personally attack you in any way, I am just trying to stop any misinformation.

[Zetsaz]

I meant $2k on the set haha. I can't really afford forged wheels right now. I'm going for like $700-$1000 for wheels. Also, maybe it's my ignorance on performance wheels but shutting out anything near or over 15 lbs seems incredibly restricting especially for those of us with more limited funds to throw at our cars.