Timing control problems

[Matt Cramer]

 Make it work as intended...   depends how the software interprets that setting. Best to follow DIY's instructions. You know instuctions? Those things us Male species never read? LOL. 

 

Edit: The reason may be that the DIY wheel is actually a 24 plus 2 trigger wheel, But the software is written to recognise the Trigger wheel as a 12 plus 1. That's just an educated guess. I didn't write the software. 

 

For those wondering why the trigger wheel has a bit of a weird pattern, here's what is going on. We had the following goals when putting together the trigger disc.

 

1. Improve timing accuracy

2. Allow distributorless ignition conversions using the stock trigger wheel.

3. Support the existing MS1/Extra through MS3 wheel decoders.

4. Allow working with existing MegaSquirt L28 installs with no changes to wiring or modifications inside ECU.

5. Support 4, 6, and 8 cylinder engines. Nissan (and several others!) used a few optical pickups across a very wide lineup.

6. Allow sequential injection for MS3.

7. If possible, allow the engine to start within one crankshaft revolution.

 

Goal #7 meant the trigger wheel pattern needed to use the same pattern repeated twice every 180 degrees, with the ECU set up for a wheel spinning at crank speed. Keeping #4 in mind, that also meant a pattern that used just one sensor since existing installs would be set up that way. So there is a pattern with two missing teeth 180 degrees apart, and the ECU interprets that as a crank wheel because the pattern repeats once every crank revolution. We then added in a one tooth "cam" pattern to allow sequential injection.

[Chickenman]

I have looked around and haven't seen any configuration. I know that if I turn on tacho output, I get a configuration error because it is set for js10 when on. And i have tried changing it to d14 but I still get nothing.

I'm out of idea...

[softopz]

I have the cas wired as followed: 12v with 1/4 resitor. Pin 24 to signal. Ground back to megasquirt(wire is within shielded wire). All I have changed was getting rid of my external stock power transistor and am now running a BIP373 solder onto the heat sink at Q16. JS10 was wired to the center hole of Q16, yet I'm 90% sure that it fired with D14. Which wouldn't make sense. Now JS10 is jumpered to IGBTin to supply the ignition for the bip out of pin 36. I also played with the J1 and JP1 jumpers but I put them back to how they were before I opened the board. Opto-in & Opto-out.

 

Hopefully this seems like your issue your missing another 12v+ switched signal to distributor. Thats why I said run fresh wire and look at the diagram. You only mentioned two. One of them you have at pin 24 with resistor good! There is another 12v+ switched . ALSO Make sure your 12v signal is also getting power in the run and I will mention it again please run all new fresh wire you can tap into 12v from + fuel pump relay.

 

 

Distributor Wire Colors

dizzy wiring

 

pin 24 gets 12v through a resistor but the B/W also gets 12v now depending where you are tapping the CAS wire colour may be different also if its 300zx could be different.

 

If thats all fine and dandy I would triple check your jumpers once more and make sure your seeing instructions for your board. ON DIYAUTOTUNE they have them for all the boards. ignore anything 3.0 since you have 3.57

 

Using the MS-II PCBv3 or V3.57 ECU

• Build the ECU up to trigger from the Hall/Optical Input (all of my MS230-C units are by default configured this way).
  • For a V3.0, connect TachSelect to OptoIn, TSEL to OptoOut.
  • For a V3.57 board, put JP1 in the 2-3 position and J1 in the 1-2 position

The only change is to enable the IGBT High Current Ignition Coil Driver Circuit to directly drive the coil. 

• Remove the jumper from JS10 to IGN or the center hole of Q16 (if exists)
• Jumper IGBTIN to JS10
• Jumper IGBTOUT to IGN (V3.0 only)
• If you do not have a BIP373 transistor in the Q16 slot, install it.

And please if you haven't done this already get rid of everything CONNECTED from the stock ecu system I MEAN EVERYTHING!

Edited April 22, 2017 by softopz

[softopz]

Any update on this I am curious to see if that was the issue?

[baggedgoods]

Hey guys, sorry for the late update. Softopz was right. Believe it or not, I noticed the CAS only had 2 wires connected and realized that it wasn't getting power about an hour before softop posted his comment. But now it runs again! I'm using the vr input and that seems to be working well, but setting the pots correctly has me sort of chasing my own tail. I followed the write up about turning them both counter clockwise 7 turns and turning r52? 2 turns clockwise. I know that this is only a base figure to getting the input to work well. But is there any way to tell if I would need to adjust them any further?

 

Also another stroke of good luck. When I got the car fired up, I checked my timing at the crank and it would sit at the commanded timing but would occasionally jump by +-15 degrees every rotation. I had the ignition advance set to "fixed table @20 degrees" but it wasn't explaining the sporadic timing. Under the prediction algorithm, it was set to 1st derivative. I must have had a hunch, so I turned that off and vwala. Timing sits directly at the commanded angle with no change under throttle. I didn't know that the prediction algorithm would be trying to work while I had my ignition fixed. Must be an error of some sort, or I must have missed that crucial information.

 

Thanks a bunch for your guy's help though! Really appreciate it

[softopz]

Did you put the 1/4 resistor?

 

Also I do remember getting frustated with zx dizzy and trying to get it properly dialed. Funny thing is also mine ran better in VR then I just went EDIS.

At that time diyautone didn't have the optical wheel I'm from the recent comments Matt Cramer meet sounds like it is almost and necessary (ms2 cant process that high resolution) I dont know if your running it buts its a worth a shot. However a VR sensor has only 2 wires coming into it and typically a Hall has 3 so I would still attempt to make the Hall work as it should.

[baggedgoods]

Did you put the 1/4 resistor?

Also I do remember getting frustated with zx dizzy and trying to get it properly dialed. Funny thing is also mine ran better in VR then I just went EDIS.

At that time diyautone didn't have the optical wheel I'm from the recent comments Matt Cramer meet sounds like it is almost and necessary (ms2 cant process that high resolution) I dont know if your running it buts its a worth a shot. However a VR sensor has only 2 wires coming into it and typically a Hall has 3 so I would still attempt to make the Hall work as it should.

Yeah, I've got the 1/4 pullup resistor. The hall and optical sensors basically work the same way.

 

I've got the car running and idling really well, but I'm not too sure about adjusting the pots. I've adjusted them according to the diy right up. (7 turns CCW and 2 turns CW on r52(I think)). I think that's just a spot to get it to work properly.

[Metro]

I haven't really been following this thread, but DIY recommends running all sensors through the VR input circuit, I'm guessing to give you access to the pots to reduce noise.

 

If the pots are out of adjustment, the engine will cut out like a rev limiter past a certain RPM (like 3k+) and/or the RPM signal will go from a smooth line to a saw tooth in your logs. Without using an oscilloscope, I don't think you'll be able to adjust it right now.

 

I found the easiest way was to rev the engine up and adjust the pots until it stopped cutting out, then go for a drive and repeat. You'll want to have a decently tuned map before doing that though.

[baggedgoods]

Hmm. So DIY's setup setting should work without any problems or else they wouldn't have posted the information?

[Chickenman]

I haven't really been following this thread, but DIY recommends running all sensors through the VR input circuit, I'm guessing to give you access to the pots to reduce noise.

 

If the pots are out of adjustment, the engine will cut out like a rev limiter past a certain RPM (like 3k+) and/or the RPM signal will go from a smooth line to a saw tooth in your logs. Without using an oscilloscope, I don't think you'll be able to adjust it right now.

 

I found the easiest way was to rev the engine up and adjust the pots until it stopped cutting out, then go for a drive and repeat. You'll want to have a decently tuned map before doing that though.

 

I wonder why they would do that?  Run Digital signals through a VR circuit which is analog?  Seems a step backwards??

 

Do you have a link to that documentation? Might be some of the old " archived " or outdated info. I find that frustrating on the MSExtra Manuals site, Been tripped up by outdated info at DIY and MSExtra forums a couple of times already....  

[baggedgoods]

I think he's referring to this article.

 

https://www.diyautotune.com/support/tech/other/megasquirt-vr/

[Chickenman]

Did you put the 1/4 resistor?

 

Also I do remember getting frustated with zx dizzy and trying to get it properly dialed. Funny thing is also mine ran better in VR then I just went EDIS.

At that time diyautone didn't have the optical wheel I'm from the recent comments Matt Cramer meet sounds like it is almost and necessary (ms2 cant process that high resolution) I dont know if your running it buts its a worth a shot. However a VR sensor has only 2 wires coming into it and typically a Hall has 3 so I would still attempt to make the Hall work as it should.

 

Actually, with the ZX dizzy being an LED Optical sensor. There " shouldn't " be any need to go through a VR conditioner... with the proper software and hardware. The main advantage to using an Optical sensor is that it puts out a very clean Square Wave signal that requires much less signal conditioning than a Magnetic sensor ( VR or Hall ) 

 

Here's a good read on the basic differences and the Pro's and Cons of VR ( magnetic ), Halla and Optical sensors:

 

http://www.breakerless.com/igntionfacts.htm#Magnetic Triggering

Edited April 28, 2017 by Chickenman

[baggedgoods]

DiY says to use the opto circuit for fuel only and the vr conditioner for everything else.

[NewZed]

Even the optical distributors just send out a high voltage and a low voltage.  DIY and Matt would probably be doing everybody, including themselves, a huge favor by renaming the "VR conditioner" to something more appropriate.  The voltages don't have to come from a variable reluctance device.  The conditioning circuit may have been designed for a VR device but it works for others.

 

As shown in that article, the voltage doesn't have to drop below zero, which is the characteristic that people commonly associate with VR devices.  Positive and negative voltage.  That's why it works for other signals though, that only drop to zero or close to zero.

 

I've worked with many engineers though, and most hate to use things for purposes that they weren't designed for, even if they work better than the purpose-built device.  There must be an inner war between Matt's inner engineer and his inner businessman whenever he gets in to this topic.  Poor guy.  If they just called it a "trigger signal conditioner" and showed people how to use it life would be simpler for MS users.

 

Forgot to say also, that there's a circuit labeled "optical" somewhere in MS but it's actually an optical isolation circuit, not an optical trigger circuit.  But they labeled it optical and it causes constant confusion.  Kind of one of those "pay your dues" things they leave out there, by working your way through the gauntlet of misnomers.

Edited April 29, 2017 by NewZed