Help. what is wrong with this tune.

[MerloZ]

Getting fuel. Im trigger logging. Getting good spark from coil again.

[Chickenman]

Im out in the garage now. Just tested spark from coil off the tunes chickenman gave me. It was great looking sparks. Then the last spark went through my body now it doesn want to spark nearly as often

 OK that's good. So ignore all the stuff I mentioned about changed the Spark Dwell. Yeah... my body doesn't Spark as well as it used to either. 

 

Just a note, that may possibly save your life down the road. If you ever check spark on a CDI box, use a proper spark gap checking tool. NEVER use your hands. CDI boxes have more than enough voltage and AMPERAGE to stop your heart cold!! 

 

If for some reason you do have to check for spark with a CDI box ( on the road for example ) Only hold the HT lead or   screwdriver stuffed in end of lead with your right hand. Keep your left hand folded behind your back ( Like in an arm bar hold )  and never let your left hand ground out to the car.

 

This is an old trick that my dad taught me when he was a TV Tech for RCA. If you get a discharge through your body, the electrical flow will go down your right arm and right side of your body. Usually exiting through your right leg and foot.  If you are holding the HT lead in your left hand or the left hand of your body is grounded the elctrical flow goes down your left arm and straight through your heart.

 

Was checking a Crane Hi-6 CDI box with LX-92 coil, when I got lazy and just used a screwdriver to check spark. Fortunately I remembered Dad's advice and held screwdriver in right hand ( left hand behind back ) while buddy cranked car. Crack!! Crack!! Crack !!! Zaaaaaaap! Got gap out to far and electrons decided it was easier to go through the insulated plastic handle of the screwdriver and through my body to ground.  All I remember was a brief scream... I saw stars and lightening....  and when I woke up I was thrown 3 feet from the car. Both of my legs were in spasms as well as my right arm. My right arm and right leg ached for several days. There was a black burn mark through my thumb.

 

Mu buddy thought he had killed me. He said all of a sudden I screamed, my body went rigid as a pole and then I kinda launched myself into the air ( Thighs spasmed ). If I had been holding that HT Leda in my left hand, or my left hand/arm was touching  the car... well I wouldn't be typing this today.  

 

Your post reminded me of that day. It's etched into my mind. Thought I'd share and pass it forward. Do the same please. 

[MerloZ]

Coil only sparks alot on first crank after key has been off then turned back on. Second crank i get one spark then none. Also im doing all sorts of data logs. It started twice out of like 9 tries. Then it died. Bow im trying to adjust timing. Timung gun works. I thought it was a bad gum but its beacause after the first crank i get no spark so i keep having to turn the key in and off

[Chickenman]

Check your ignition switch wiring. There is a crank position and a run position. The two 12V circuits are separate. If you've only connected the Start circuit to power your MS that could be causing the failure when you release the key to RUN. 

 

The factory ballast resistor has two hot wires connecting to it. One is hot when cranking. and One is hot when running. Connected together at the ballast resistor, they are combined. But if you separate the wires or remove the ballast resistor the 12 v circuits are separated. 

[MerloZ]

I allready ran into that issue last week and fixed it. I leave my key in the run position and im using a starter button to start it. Wouldnt that bypass it.

[MerloZ]

I managed to set the timing at 10 btdc like u wanted right.. #1 angle of 375.. does that sound right??. Engine sometimes seems like it sparks at the wrong time when cranking and it jolts the engine to a stop. Like pre detonation of some sort. That bad thing.

[MerloZ]

Yeah... send us a data log of the Sync Errors and Trigger Log while cranking. May as well throw in a Tooth log as well.  Do you have any Noid lights for testing the injector pulse. These are really cheap. Usually only a couple of bucks at Napa or Autozone.

 

Did you get a JimStim with your MS  ECU?  This is a test simulator for the MS. Can uncover a lot of tricky problems. 

Not exactly sure what a noid light is but ive been using one of those lights that i plug in between the plug wire and the plug and with that its the same thing after first crank i get no spark through it.

 I dont have a jim stim but i have a basic stim.

Edited April 15, 2017 by MerloZ

[MerloZ]

 OK that's good. So ignore all the stuff I mentioned about changed the Spark Dwell. Yeah... my body doesn't Spark as well as it used to either. 

 

Just a note, that may possibly save your life down the road. If you ever check spark on a CDI box, use a proper spark gap checking tool. NEVER use your hands. CDI boxes have more than enough voltage and AMPERAGE to stop your heart cold!! 

 

If for some reason you do have to check for spark with a CDI box ( on the road for example ) Only hold the HT lead or   screwdriver stuffed in end of lead with your right hand. Keep your left hand folded behind your back ( Like in an arm bar hold )  and never let your left hand ground out to the car.

 

This is an old trick that my dad taught me when he was a TV Tech for RCA. If you get a discharge through your body, the electrical flow will go down your right arm and right side of your body. Usually exiting through your right leg and foot.  If you are holding the HT lead in your left hand or the left hand of your body is grounded the elctrical flow goes down your left arm and straight through your heart.

 

Was checking a Crane Hi-6 CDI box with LX-92 coil, when I got lazy and just used a screwdriver to check spark. Fortunately I remembered Dad's advice and held screwdriver in right hand ( left hand behind back ) while buddy cranked car. Crack!! Crack!! Crack !!! Zaaaaaaap! Got gap out to far and electrons decided it was easier to go through the insulated plastic handle of the screwdriver and through my body to ground.  All I remember was a brief scream... I saw stars and lightening....  and when I woke up I was thrown 3 feet from the car. Both of my legs were in spasms as well as my right arm. My right arm and right leg ached for several days. There was a black burn mark through my thumb.

 

Mu buddy thought he had killed me. He said all of a sudden I screamed, my body went rigid as a pole and then I kinda launched myself into the air ( Thighs spasmed ). If I had been holding that HT Leda in my left hand, or my left hand/arm was touching  the car... well I wouldn't be typing this today.  

 

Your post reminded me of that day. It's etched into my mind. Thought I'd share and pass it forward. Do the same please. 

wow well im glad your here ive had my fair share of shocks from welding in a puddle to spark plugs to leaving my finger in between a wall plug when i plug it in.. but okay thakyou for the advice.

[Chickenman]

Should be right. Now go back to the Ignition Decoder wheel and change the timing to " Use Table. Burn and Cycle ignition. Does engine run now?

 

One question on the MS ECU wiring. where is the main 12 v lead connected to? It cannot be connected to the battery on any other constant on circuit. Main ECU 12v feed is supposed to go through a relay, that is turned on and off by ignition. ECU has to have all power cut to it to save some settings. 

[MerloZ]

merloZ3 all cranking data logs.zipHeres all the logs also torwards the end of my testing i didnt have to turn the key off and on as many times but when i did it was totally random.

[Chickenman]

Gonna be away for a while. Back in a few hours. Keep us up to date.

[Chickenman]

Can't read logs through Mega Log viewer for some reason. Keep getting error messages. Too many fields selected. Note. When using composite logger you should be able to select what fields you want to Log. don't leave them ALL selected. That overloads the program.

 

Want to see Synch logs and Crank Trigger logs. When you save them please change the names. Default is date and time and it hard to sort out what is what. Re-name them SynchLog1, SynchLog2, Trigger Log1, TriggerLog2 etc, etc etc

Edited April 16, 2017 by Chickenman

[Chickenman]

Morgen... can you tell me what Ignition Coil you are running on your car? Thanks. May still be an issue with Coil dwell, depending on what ignition coil is on the car. 

[MerloZ]

Ecu gets power throught a relay and a 3 amp wire it all worked before so its either sumthing stupid that ill find or mahbe a setting? Idk? Okay ill try that data loging stuff tmrw not much time at all today as its easter. The car does not run but its close o think i just gotta play with it a bit. I am running the stock 260z coil i had an aftearket accel one but it leaked oil caused problems then shit the bed. Tomorow and tuesday i should have all the time in the world to work on this and my car.

[Chickenman]

One thing that is bothering me is that it ran ( although badly ) with the Trigger Offset set to 240. And you synched the Timing to 20 BTDC. Is that correct? Now it's synching at a 10 BDTC at a trigger offset of 375. That doesn't make sense. It should have synched at 250 degrees....  if the original figure was correct ( Plus 10 degrees over 240 trigger signal because you're delaying timing another 10 degrees. 

 

Still can't understand why that Trigger angle changed so much... from 240 degrees to 375. Outer timing ring on damper could be slipping, or you did something wrong. Borrow another timing light to make sure your's is not faulty 

 

So, lets go back to basics tomorrow and check a couple of things. Please do this first time you get to work on the car again. 

 

1: Pull the 4 pin wiring  connector at the Dizzy. That will disable injectors and Ignition. Pull all the plugs.

 

2; Bring #1 up to TDC. Confirm that you are on compression stroke and not exhaust stroke. Don't know if you use this tip, but you can stuff your finger in the plug hole and feel the air coming out when piston is nearing TDC on the compression stroke. Stop just short of TDC and rotate final degrees by hand and look at Timing marks on damper. ( That's why you take all the plugs out. To make the engine easier to turn by hand ). I like to confirm EXACT TDC by sticking a long thin screwdriver in the plug hole and have it touch the piston top as the piston is just approaching TDC. You will feel the piston come up, stop, then go back down. Halfway through the pause is TDC. 

 

You want to confirm TDC by piston stop. The front damper is a two piece separated by a rubber damping material. These damper are 40 years old now, and quite often the outer ring will slip. That will throw your timing marks out and drive you nuts. If the outer ring has slipped, you will have to send it out to get rebuilt. Let us know what you find. 

 

3: Assuming everything lines up right, go to the Dizzy and note where the #1 spark plug is on the cap. Take a Black Sharpie and make a mark on the distributor body . Now remove the dizzy cap and see where the rotor is pointing. It should be lining up pretty darned close to the #1 matk you just made on the Dizzy housing. If it's not lineing up close, you have a problem withe the spindle shaft installation.  If a problem, take a picture and post it up.

 

4: If everything OK in step #3, rotate the crank pulley backwards till timing pointer is at 25 BTDC. You may not have a 25 degree mark on your timing tab or pulley, so just  measure the distance between marks with some vernier calipers or some other fairly accurate device. File or scratch a mark at 25 degrees.   Now go back and see where the rotor is in relation to the index mark you made on the dizzy body. Loosen the two small dizzy mounting bolts on the bottom. Rotate the Dizzy body so that the rotor tip is centered on that mark. Tighten the mounting bolts.

 

5: Because you have physically moved the Dizzy, you will have to go back and recalibrate your Trigger angle by a few degrees. Lock the Timing table at 10 degrees and go through the trigger angle setup procedure. You shouldn't be off by more than a few degrees. 

 

Congratulations, you have now learnt how to " Phase a Rotor " to a Dizzy cap. 25 BTDC close to the mid point of your timing spread. The idea is to get the rotor centered at the halfway point between minimum running timing and maximum. So that's going to be approximately 40 - 15 /2 = 12.5 degrees. 15 + 12.5 = 27.5 degrees... but 25 is close enough.

 

6: While you are at it. Confirm that the HT leads on the Dizzy are in the correct order. Rotor rotated CCW. Firing order is 1 - 5 -3 -6 -2 - 4. Double check it.  

Edited April 16, 2017 by Chickenman

[Chickenman]

Morgen. What MAP sensor are you running? GM,  aftermarket or MS???

 

Doesn't look like the MAP has been calibrated yet from your original Tune. TPS may need calibration as well or did you calibrate that already? And obviously you new GM coolant sensor as well.

 

The deeper I dig into your Copy and Pasted Tune the more anomalies I seem to be finding. That's another problem with using someone else's tune. You don't know what hardware is on their car. I'll send you a PM in a bit. I think an online Remote Tuning session may be in order. 

[Chickenman]

PM sent about remote Tuning.

[MerloZ]

Allright ill do this stuff tmrw. You told last time when it was running i touched no settings in tunerstudio i just moved the dizzy and clicked fixed timing. I adjusted timing by turning the dizzy. I now understand that is wrong to do it like that but thats what i did then. I have not calibrated anything besides tps i didnt even think of that so ill get that done tmrw too.

[Chickenman]

Gotcha...if you can setup the timing and Rotor Phasing as I listed in Post #75 before we do the Remote Tuning, then we should have a correct starting base to go on. 

Edited April 16, 2017 by Chickenman

[Chickenman]

Morgen. I finally got an answer back from MS forums on the dwell settings. As I suspected the Nominal Dwell settings and Spark discharge times from that tune you downloaded are wrong. Looks like the owner of that car had a fast change E-Coil. The settings for that will not work properly for the slower charging OEM canister type coil. I have revised the coils settings in this latets Tune file. Please download it and load it up for tomorrow. 

 

Changes are based on advice from MS/Extra forums. Nominal Dwell now = 3.1ms and Spark Duration now = 1.0ms. Previous setting would hav resulted in the coil not charging fully at higher RPM's.  I'll be in touch tomorrow. Cheers

 

Edit at 3:32 PM. Morgen. The original tune you downloaded is totally fracked up. I don't think the firmware versions are matching. I just downloaded a brand new default tune from MS for MS 2 with firmware version 3.4.2 ( what you said you were running ) and all of the Fuel calculations came out different. 

 

Since I based my tunes on that original tune that you downloaded. all my fuel calculations are likely fracked up as well. That is the big problem with downloading other people tunes. If there software and firmware don't match up exactly with what you have, you get a big hot mess. grabage in = Garbage out

 

I now have the default tune downloaded  from DIY for MS 2 . Extra firmware 3.4.2. And surprise, surprise. Guess what the coil settings default to for a Standard coil?  Nominal Dwell = 3.1 ms and Spark Discharge = 1.0ms. Just about bang on with what I calculated for a Datsun canister coil

 

Tomorrow we will dump all the tunes you have and start fresh. I'll transfer MS default Tune for 3.4.2 to you in morning and work on a fresh tune for you tonight. Based on the correct default base tune instead of someone else's mismatched tune. Hopefully you'll have a Happy Birthday!!!  

 

 

Edited April 16, 2017 by Chickenman