Another Beginner Question

[Guest Anonymous]

I'm 18 years old and i have pretty good knowledge of cars. How hard is the actual conversion using the JTR kit? Along with the help of some actual mechanics I know should i be able to get the job done?

[denny411]

With the JTR manual, almost anyone with basic skills and access to neccessary tools should easily be able to complete the conversion.

 

I`ve heard some say that total conversion time should take 30-40 hours. This estimate does NOT include the while I`m at it syndrome though. That could drag the process out for years.

The key is to make a plan and stick to it. I`m NOT speaking from personal experience though, because I`m terminally infected with the "syndrome"

[pparaska]

If you have help, with the actual mechanics and you use the search engine you will find more than enough info to do it. The JTR swap has been done hundreds (maybe thousands?) of times and between the JTR book and this site, you'll have all the knowledge you'll need.

 

If you have a family memeber or friend versed in doing engine installations, I'd say the JTR swap is not TOO far removed from general engine R&R, but there is some fabrication involved. But JTR and HybridZ can show you the way.

[strotter]

Welcome to the board, Nick. I've got a Z conversion (a fuel-injected 327 with a T5 transmission) I'm in the final stages of finishing. The answer to your question isn't as simple as "you can do it" or "you can't do it". The correct answer is "It depends on what you're doing".

 

My experience is that the actual conversion is simple. If you've ever installed a motor, you're mostly there. The devil, as they say, is in the details. And, there are more details than you might think.

 

The first thing to do is get a JTR manual:

 

http://www.jagsthatrun.com/

 

This will be your bible. Read it, then read it again, and then take some notes, and then put it in the bathroom next to the toilet and read it some more. Then, learn how to use the "search" function at HybridZ. It's invaluable. Ask questions as required, never never never consider them stupid, if you feel like an idiot for asking don't worry, you're in good company.

 

The next thing to do is figure out what you want to do. If you mean to put a carburated Chevy V8 into the car, with one of the transmissions mentioned in the book, you won't have to worry too much. However, if you want a twin-turbo'd Northstar with a 6-speed tranny and a custom rearend, you might be looking for trouble. That's up to you, but I can tell you from experience it's much easier to at least start out conservative, and go from there.

 

Another thing that can make your conversion complicated is the condition of your Z. Nobody wants to spend a bunch of money on a car they're basically going to tear apart, but the rougher the car the bigger the job - and the more expensive. This was something that got me. My car needed a great deal of bodywork, interior work, and general cleaning up. I burned *hundreds* of hours doing things I wouldn't have had to do if the car had been more perfect. However, for me, I had more time than money, so it was a wash. YMMV. Remember, Z's are old cars now, and you'll have all the problems associated with old cars, along with the new problems the swap entails.

 

Another thing to watch for is the "since I'm doing "A", I might as well do "B"" syndrome. You're going to do a little work on the bumpers, you might as well repair that rusty spot. Whoosh, there goes 10 hours. You're replacing the struts, might as well rebuild the suspension, Ka-CHING! a couple of hundred dollars and many hours and busted knuckles. You get the idea. If you have the self-control to *do what you set out to do*, it's not a problem. However, human nature being what it is, your list of "To Do" items will get longer, not shorter.

 

Something else: your donor car. I would *strongly* recommend that you get an entire car for the swap, with the motor/trans combination in it that you want. Why? The details again. My donor car not only gave up its engine and transmission, it also provided the driveshaft, fuel fittings, radiator mount, hundreds of bolts and screws, instruments, wiring by the mile, relays, air conditioning gear, etc etc etc. If not for that hulk sitting in my back yard, I'd have spent many, many more hours at the junkyard. *Huge* time saver.

 

Next: work out a budget. After you've read the JTR book, sit down at your computer and create a spreadsheet including all the items they've mentioned. Be realistic (which is actually much more difficult than it seems). Take a couple of days, get on the 'phone, get some price quotes, confirm with any friends you're going to draft as assistants that they will, for sure, assist; look through all the catalogs you can find and get the best prices you can. Once you've got a total, figure out how much you can afford a month. Be straight with yourself - it's difficult to live your life entirely in the garage, no social life, no lunch, no dates. Everything costs money. And be realistic about your skills: I for instance am not a welder (though I'm learning) so I had to take the car to a muffler shop. Ka-Ching! $450 bux, a pretty good deal for the work he did, and well done too, but if I had the skill I could have done it for half that.

 

Anyway, once you have the total money you'll need to spend, increase that by 50%. Yep, just do it, trust me, it's right. So now you've got a big number, and that assumes you won't be adding goodies as the project continues. Take that big number, and divide it by how much you can spend per month. The number that will come out of your calculator is how many months it will take you to finish the job. Normally, the speed of the work is more limited by costs than by hours available. My project started out with a total budget of $8000. I'm *good* at doing budgets, and have some experience with large projects, and I'm a good backyard mechanic, but my total spending is at about $10,000 now, and has a short distance to go. When it's "done", I'll be in the $11,000 range. More than I expected, but I expected it.

 

Also, expect some "gotcha's". Here's an example: I have very little experience with fuel-injection. I decided I'd like to try it, 'cause it makes for a better-mannered street machine. However, I discovered that, once you put a computer-controlled motor into a different car you need to reprogram the computer to tell it about its' new environment. This ones new environment included a different motor, different throttle-body, different intake and exhaust, different cam, a lighter car, so on and so on. What this means is that I had to start learning about "PROM burning", which is basically reverse-engineering the GM computer and modifying the controlling tables it used to run the motor. This in turn meant I had to buy a Prom "burner", which hooks up to a laptop computer, which I had to buy because I'm a Mac guy and all the good software for PROM burning is on Windows. Then I had to build a cable to hook the computer up to the car, and I had to modify the wiring so I could do it easily (since I was there), and I had to find information about doing these mods online (mostly at ThirdGen.org), and so on. A combination of "gotcha" and "since I'm doing "A", I might as well do "B".

 

Another thing: expect to get bummed out about the whole thing. Working on a project is like working on a relationship: There's that honeymoon period, when you're just manic with excitement and good feelings and Joy-Joy happiness. Then you get to the real stuff. It's a lot of work, and it's been sitting in the garage for, like, a *year*, and you want to go to Cabo with your friends but you spent the d**ned money on the d**ned *car*, dammit, and you want something you can drive around *right NOW*, grr grrr grrrrr. Expect it, it will likely happen. The project won't go as smoothly as you expect, and it won't go as fast as you expect, and you'll make some mistakes, and it'll seem like a huge waste of time. If you're ready for it, it'll be much easier to handle, and you'll be able to move past it.

 

Finally: when you have no money to spend, and no time to do the work, and the garage floor is cold, and you're bummed out and the whole thing seems like a waste of time, engage the imagination. This is an important part of any large project, one which is frequently overlooked. You have to be able to *feel* and *see* the end, the result, the payoff. Maybe it's you spanking a Corvette (you see the driver shake his fist at you in your rear-view mirror), or maybe it's more like: "Ooh, Nick" she coos, her eyes glistening and her silky hair tumbling down her too-tight sweater, "You're car is soooo cool. Can I go for a ride?" Whatever your deal, you need to keep it firmly in your mind. After all, we don't live our lives in the physical world as much as we do inside our heads, best to take it into account.

 

So to summarize:

 

1) Keep it simple.

2) Get the JTR manual, memorize it.

3) Use HybridZ extensively.

4) Get a good conversion car, as good as you can afford.

5) Get a whole donor car, if possible.

6) Don't let the project grow as you go along.

7) Make a realistic budget, stick to it.

8) Expect gotchas.

9) Make a conscious effort to stay "up".

10) Have fun.

 

In any event, go for it. It'll be fun.

[pparaska]

THAT has to be the best written advice on this I've seen yet!

 

BOOKMARK!!!!!!

[jhaag]

I echo Pete's comment. Outstanding description of the process! If ever there was something that deserved to be in an FAQ section about Hybrids.....

 

John

[Guest Anonymous]

THANKS! Thanks alot, that response is really great it helped me out alot! I'm looking foward to gettiong started!

[Wagz]

Perfect description!! It's as if he was writing about my project. Everything in there is right on the money. These are words to plan and live your project by. Nice write up!

[Guest bobs302z]

That is why this web site is so good its like REAL TV . I did ford swap but everything I did was the same JRT manual , hours on hybridz,started ordering parts a year before I tore car apart, did rebuild, got in it and and beat every body i bench raced all winter . Loving every time I put the gas down.

[spotfitz]

Very thought out response and worth the read for anyone considering any swap. I have just two words to add.

I'm screwed

[Wagz]

Very thought out response and worth the read for anyone considering any swap. I have just two words to add.

I'm screwed

 

Yeah, but you're in good company...

[Briguy280Z]

Who ever said stick to your project....dont let it grow. I know for a fact that it will. I started off saying "Yeah i am gong to put a V8 into a Z-car" to "Yeah i am going to put a fuel injected V8 into a Z-Car" Now "Yeah i am puting a LS1 V8 into a Z-Car". Things can grow and grow...well what if i do this and this.....add another bunch of cash and 1-2 years on to your project. I started my swap about 5 years ago. I am finally going to start the car this weekend.

 

I am so very nervous that when i turn the key the whole car WILL BURST OUT IM FLAMES !!!!! AHHHHH

 

But it will be fun putting life back into a 280Z again.

 

Stick to your guns do the KISS method

 

Good Luck!!!

 

Briguy280Z

[niceguy678us]

DAMN strotter!!!

[QWKDTSN]

Nick - I started my conversion at age 17 and I got it done just fine. If I can do it, you sure can, especially with bit of confidence in your skills. Have fun

[Georgia Flash]

LOL Stotter I was starting to have a fantasy like the one you mentioned with the tight sweatered chick and then reality as in the wife smacked me in the back of the head, lol

 

You are right on the money when you say that there will be a honey moon phase I have been there and done that. This past winter it was depressing to go out into the cold garage and look at all the mess I had strewn about here and there.

 

I am slowly trying to get things back in some sort of order and I am trying like the devil to start saving some more money. My goal was to have the 350 in the car by the end of last August. Now it is to have it in the car by the end of this August. And, God willing, it will be there!

[jbeech]

Stuffing a SBC (for Small Block Chevy) into a Z-car - up to ca. 1978, is pretty easy. While I've never done a later model Z, i.e a ZX, a friend has and these tips will nonetheless work . . . for that matter, they'll serve for most any car! Also, FWIW, I've done a Mazda Wankel onto a Porsche transaxle, a Ford Cleveland V-8 onto a ZF transaxle, a 2-liter Toyota into my Lotus Elan S3, and of course a SBC into my first Z-car. In addition, I've helped another friend do their SBC into a ZX but he knows far more than me . . . so while I have a little bit of experience, trust me, none of this is beyond you - especially if you are motivated. Frankly, it's both easy and fun to boot!

 

If your Z-car runs decent with the original 6-cylinder and you're satisfied with how it handles, i.e. the brakes are good, there are no strange noises, the shocks don't leak, etc. then you only need to decide exactly what kind of conversion you want to do. This typically is determined by how much money you have.

 

Regardless, the job first needs to be broken down into components, and started only when all components are ready to be executed - like any plan.

 

Although other engines can be swapped into a Z-car, I recommend a Chevy V-8, what's called a SBC because it's likely the easiest swap to perform. The engine parts for hot rodding are the least expensive and are plentiful, i.e. those with the greatest variety of manufacturers. Frankly, in my not so humble opinion, the SBC is the greatest engine ever put on the planet. SBC engines vary in displacement from 265 cubic inches to 400 cubic engines (and larger, once hot rodders get into the act). For example, the very common variant, the 350 cubic inch engine (or 5.7 liter for those enamoured of the metric system) is equipped with a 5.7 inch long rods but 6 inch rods are routinely installed (in the search for the optimum ratio), but in any case, from the exterior, there is little to differentiate one from the other.

 

Also, unless you are an experienced driver, I recommend you install a somewhat stock 350 cubic inch SBC and live with it a year before thinking of more than horsepower. I also would upgrade my braking system before installing more power.

 

Other than the engine itself, you need a transmission, a driveshaft, exhaust, cooling, fuel and electrical hookups. If you need help, any decent mechanic will consider the job duck soup, i.e. easy . . . in fact, you can do it yourself with hand tools and two weekends. You might need somebody to weld up the engine mounts (if you can't), but even this part of the job isn't too hard. You also will need to get a drive shaft made up, and you'll need to get the car to the muffler shop - it 'can' be driven on open headers without harm (especially if you're friendly with the local gendarmes), but wear ear muffs or plugs and get a friend to follow you there for a ride home.

 

Finally, before getting started, you need to order a set of headers for the engine. Hooker makes a set especially for swapping a SBC into a Z-car. They work beautifully, especially on the left side where they're made in two pieces to clear the steering shaft. While you're at it, see if they now offer it in a coated version. If not, once you receive them, immediately send them out to be coated (aluminized); they'll last much longer. Now let's get started.

 

Stage I - Disassembly

 

1. Start by taking the hood off the car. Before loosening the four bolts, lightly scribe a line around the perimeter of the mounts so you can put it exactly back where it was. Often there's enough dirt there to do the job. In my experience, while some will opine it can be done alone, I think it's a two-man job to remove the hood (without scratching the car).

 

2. From the exposed engine compartment, disconnect the fuel and the return-to-tank line, along with the vapor canister (if the car is so equipped). Next, remove the two bolts holding the clutch slave cylinder (manual tranny), but don't break the seal, just let it hang on a hook made with a piece of wire from a coat hanger. Next take loose the throttle and choke linkages, both water hoses and the heater hoses, and while you are at it, remove the radiator (and the transmission cooler lines if the Z is equipped with an automatic tranny). Next, disconnect the tachometer, starter wiring, and alternator wires - label them.

 

3. From underneath the car, take loose the exhaust at the manifold/pipe joint and remove in it's entirety. Then, make a chalk mark on the driveshaft anywhere from an inch or two from the U-joint (at the differential) to about half-way down its length, and transfer this mark to the transmission tunnel (do a good job so you can later accurately transfer this mark back to the Chevy driveshaft). Now undo and drop the driveshaft by taking loose the U-joint. While you're under the car, get the transmission mount bolt loose and loosen the speedometer cable - don't leave it dragging on the floor, support it with a hook made of coat hanger wire.

 

4. From inside the car, remove the the center consol, the shifter lever, and the rubber boot (from around the shift lever) which seals the lever to the transmission tunnel.

 

5. Finally, get a cherry picker from the local tool rent place (get a tilt bar while you are at it because with it's screw mechanism it's far easier to slip the engine out). Attach it to the lift hooks of the 6-cylinder engine, take up most of the slack, and now remove the engine mount bolts and then the tranny mount bolts and ease the engine/tranny combo out.

 

While you can remove the engine/tranny combination by yourself, it's easier with another person to help guide it out (to keep from nicking the paint in the engine compartment).

 

Finally, wheel the 6-cylinder engine/tranny to a convenient place, lower it onto some wooden blocks (three 4x4 pieces each about 2 foot long are easy to come by and work well). Cover the engine with a plastic tarp and phone in a 'for sale' advert to your local newspaper. Start at $1500 and take whatever you feel is fair. I took $800 for mine and was happy.

 

This takes up all of Saturday and completes Stage I - Disassembly.

 

Stage II - Installation

 

1. Commence with a SBC and tranmission combination similar to what came out. The easiest swap into a Z-car originally equipped with a manual transmission is a 350 SBC with a Borg-Warner T-5 5-speed (overdrive) manual transmission. This combo works well and is fairly easy to find. If you are set on an automatic transmission, a 700R4 is my first choice.

 

When I first made my conversion, I used a TH350 (automatic) and left the clutch pedal and everything in place - I later swapped in a manual transmission. I used a transmission mount from a '75 Chevrolet El Camino and used it to locate the fore/aft placement of the engine (by re-using the original Z-car tranny mount). With a T-5 install, ideally, the transmission lever is perfectly located in the transmission tunnel hole as per the original - this will be most comfortable for driving.

 

The only kit in existence when I did my swap was from Scarab (in CA and now defunct) with which my current Z-car based GTO is equipped. I understand a better install these days is to use the mount kit from JTR which locates the engine closer to the firewall and lower into the chassis (good things).

 

2. I used engine mounts from a 1972 C-10 pickup. My pal with a ZX/SBC used motor mounts out of some Chrysler. The easiest way is to just take the original Z-car mounts with you to a good parts house, tell him what motor you are swapping in, and let the guy behind the counter help you find something that will work. Interestingly enough, my pal Lloyd (who used Chrysler mounts for his ZX install) has a twin-turbo SBC in his car - it's quite radical. Maybe I'll post pictures if there is interest, but I digress.

 

Anyway, I made up my spacers for the engine mounts out of 2 pieces of 2" x 4" x 3/16" wall by 3" long pieces of scrap steel along with some misc. pieces of 1/16", 1/8", and 16 gage for shims.

 

3. With the engine tranny in place, fit the driveshaft from whatever donor you bought the engine/tranny combo from in the first place and push it all the way into the transmission. Now back it out 1/2 inch. Be careful not to let it slide in or out and transfer the chalk mark onto this driveshaft from the mark inside of the transmission tunnel (you did make the chalk mark I told you about earlier, right?). This might seem like a three handed job, so a pal can help.

 

At this stage, the engine/transmission is aligned and installed. Reinstall the hood. This takes up all of Sunday, plus assorted beers, friends, Bandaids . . . and maybe a few swear words, etc.

 

3a. On Monday take your Z-car's radiator to a radiator shop and ask him for something to fit in its place. Tell him you're installing a SBC and that you want a 4-pass radiator. Griffin makes a very tasty aluminum unit which works nice. If you end up cheaping out by using a brass unit, then he'll help you get something with side tanks that will fit and will remove the stock mounting tabs from your old radiator and solder them to the new one.

 

3b. While you are at it, get a two-speed dual-fan shroud/fan combo out of a late model Ford Taurus (perhaps 75-100 bucks, depends on your scrounging skills) so he can solder on some mounting tabs for it as well.

 

3c. As best I recall, a radiator from a '75 or so Camaro fits nicely - but follow the radiator shop's advice. Also, radiator hoses for that vintage Camaro will likely work and while I don't remember the part numbers, it's easy even if you have to first buy universal flex hoses and drive over to the parts house to find two that fit better.

 

4. Also on Monday, take both driveshafts to a machine shop. Explain what you're doing, point out the respective chalk marks so they can cut and weld the two driveshafts together on a lathe. This cost about 50 bucks last time I did one, I doubt it's much more now.

 

5. Install the Hooker headers. You can use a pair of Cherry Bomb mufflers on 1 foot stubs to the collector (along with some wire to Mickey Mouse some hangers at the other ends) to get you to the muffler shop - or drive it on open headers to the muffler shop - your choice.

 

6. Install the alternator and wire same. Wire the starter solenoid into the original wires. I used aftermarket gages, so for the tachometer install you're on your own. Install a relay and leave plenty of wires for the cooling fans. Wire in the reverse/backup lights. I also installed an interlock switch on my clutch pedal which requires the clutch to be depressed before allowing the car to start - this is optional.

 

7. Use a 3/4 inch Tilton or some such master cyclinder for the clutch and a stock T-5 slave. I had a speed shop make me a new braided line while I was at it. With an automatic, you'll have to figure out how to install a cooler for the transmission fluid.

 

8. Once the radiator and driveshaft are installed, you're almost done. I used an electric fuel pump so all you need is a tubing bender to bring the fuel line up near the firewall and then used a braided hose to connect it to the carb inlet line.

 

9. For the throttle linkage, I scrounged another linkage and bracket off another Z-car and made up a linkage to the carb. I first used a Holly 600 cfm vacuum secondary unit, but my current SBC has a Quadrajet on it.

 

10. The air cleaner is next. I used a Moroso open element air cleaner. The major issue is clearance. I rolled up some balls of clay, put them in various locations on top of my carburetor, and eased the hood down in order to establish clearance. My current SBC install wasn't performed by me, so I don't know where it's intake system was scrounged from but you can take a peek at it by surfing to http://www.modelsport.com/gto where you can also see Speed Racer's trick looking engine compartment.

 

11. The Chevy dealer has various gears for the tranny to allow getting the speedometer to work - I don't remember which I used, it was trial and error . . . but not too much trouble.

 

That's it. Have fun.

[quicker240]

[Guest trickz]

hey steve i `ve been friends with beech for 25 yrs we built em old style back in 77 /78. sorry i missed ya at z club but other things got in the way jerrys sick (chemo) we`ll be playing in clubs around b`ham the next 6 weeks then chattanooga for the river bend festival 9pm before the headliner. o yea i drove from cal. with beech in his 250gto 3 months ago ya build em and you drive em . trickz no 6 bangers here were pack`n 8 8)

[Guest Anonymous]

Where te hell do you order the manual? I tried the site and I guess it's screwed up.

[Tim240z]

Where te hell do you order the manual? I tried the site and I guess it's screwed up.

 

https://web9.tdl.com/jags/OrderingBooks.html

 

I assume you are referring to the JTR manual.

 

Tim