Drag Racing Murder Trial in San Diego, CA.

[Guest 1320the260]

my first cousin and her husband were both fatally struck in a car accident by a drunk driver about 2 years ago. the man received 5 years 4 months. now being as close to my family as i was, i could not help but to feel that his sentence was too short and that it was unfair. but then i took a step back, i realised that the kid did NOT mean to kill them. it was a stupid decision, but now he has to live his life knowing that he killed 2 people, left 3 kids without parents, he forced 2 sets of parents to bury their children(although they were in their late 30's), and practically destroyed a family. now we have all spoken to him, he is VERY remorsefull. i feel that what he will have to live with, every time he looks in the mirror is a punishment all in itself. i do not feel that those drag racers should face charges of murder. there is a reason why it was called an "ACCIDENT!" because it did not mean to happen. accidents happen. it was just the people in the saturn's time to die. thats it. it was meant to happen.

[denny411]

Is it possible that the injuries to the occupants of the other car may not have been so severe if the cars involved in the race had been traveling at the posted 50mph? YES.

I have no doubt that the additional 37mph of impact speed contributed considerably to their injuries.

 

Would it be possible to say that if the drivers of the racing cars had been driving the posted speed limit, and NOT involved in a race that they mayhave been more aware of the other car? YES

 

Could it also be said that, if the drivers had not been concentrating on accelerating and winning the race,that their reaction to the car pulling in front of them may have been different? YES

 

Were they breaking the law? YES

 

Would a city sponsored quarter mile stop street racing? NO

 

It seems to me that some people are attempting to minimize the guilt of the racers. By the arguments I`ve seen, it sounds like you wouldn`t mind going to jail for 10yrs for killing someone, but 20yrs is too much.

 

I personally would prefer to NOT kill someone and NOT go to jail at all.

I guess that`s the price you put on fun.

[ZR8ED]

Well I guess I'd like to add some of my Canuck "cents"..so..about a 1/5th of a cent to you guys hehe

 

okok serious.

 

I work for a company that takes safety so far beyond, people not accustomed to it think its rediculous and unimaginable. I was also on their safety investigation team for almost 5 years.

 

Not entirely relevent, I know, but I just wanted to note that I understand safety. workplace or other.

 

First off. There is no such thing as an accident. ALL accidents are preventable. That means that EVERYONE has a responsability for his/her safety at all times, as well as the safety of others around them. PERIOD!

 

That means that everyone involved in that accident is at fault. If your not aware of your surroundings, your in a heap of trouble, and yes I even mean a person in the back seat! Now I'm not talking law fault, I'm talking about personal fault. The people in the saturn were in their right to assume it was safe to drive on the street, and that street racing is illegal, but that does not give them the right to stop thinking of thier own safety and the safety of others. Ever here the term "dead right"? I think it applies.

 

Now the idiots who were racing. I personally believe in the motto "that there is a time and a place for everything" I don't condone street racing, but I have participated in it none the less..stupid or not.. Intent of murder, but accidental murder (sec degree murder that is mentioned above) even knowing the risks involved or flagrant breakage of the law doesn't mean that they still INTENDED to murder someone. So I agree on the manslaughter charge in this case...at least as pure logic with no emotional motives.

 

Most people make most descisions on emotions.. This is a bad situation for humanity on the whole...I don't need to get into what happens when countries start on about honour, egos, etc.. and not wanting to look bad and back down...

 

So back to the law.. the families of the victims though understandably upset, are essentially not the deciding factor for LAWS. That is why we have laws, so people don't solve all their problems emotionally. They were not directly involved in the actual incident. They were mearly affected by the reprecussions of peoples choices... This goes back to "an eye for eye"....not exactly humanities better law theories...cause when does it end?.. it can't... there is no suitable retribution for death.

 

Those guys should have been thinking of safety (themselves and those around them) I think that is an overiding priority. It actually considers the fact that we are human, and are capable of making rational descisions. They still could have raced on the street even though it is still illegal.. but in a safer place, with considerations of themselves and others. Yes they should still consider their own safety, but life is dangerous..sitting in your room is still dangerous because you put your safety in others hands..ie electrician who wired your home, gas installer who did your furnace, idiot neighbour with his rifle in his backyard.

 

Someone breaking the law doesn't make you exempt from you being responsible for your safety. Period.

 

And no worries guys. This is just my thoughts on the subject. Lets keep it cool. Its good to be able to discuss this in a logical non emotional way.

Cause I know..everyone knows someone who has been affected by tradgedy either accidental, or maliciously. I know this myself for a FACT!

 

This site is great!

 

Peace guys, and my prayers for those who have lost their lives, as well as those who have made poor choices, and have to live with them.

 

 

Scott.

[Guest Anonymous]

Below is a few webpages to look at. They list the story, background information and how this issue has evolved.

 

http://www.courttv.com/trials/dragrace/background_ctv.html

 

http://racelegal.com/news/news.asp

 

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/streetracing021203.html

 

I need to correct something I stated... the car that turned in front of the drag racers was not a Saturn... I thought it was... but its not. The car is a Geo Storm.

 

Since this case has began last week, three more people have died in Street Racing activities in California. Could this be getting out of control? Is this issue worth all the time spent on it?

 

Dennis

[tsumner]

To start, I think that the racers should do time, intentional or not they still took the lives of others.

What I would like to know is why did the saturn turn into oncoming traffic?Was there a drug test performed post mortum?Was the driver talking on a cell phone.Was this an inexperienced driver who coulden't judge the speed of oncoming traffic?

As far as the hobby goes this is the sort of incident that gives ammunition to those who would like to outlaw the modification of cars.

Later, Tom

[Dave240Z]

As far as the hobby goes this is the sort of incident that gives ammunition to those who would like to outlaw the modification of cars.

 

This is exactly my concern with all this. I believe we all should be held responsible for our actions, but it is incidents like these that get sensationalized in the media and then the general population gets on the bandwagon without realizing that for every "bad enthusiast", there are a superior number of those who are not; wherein lies the problem. This sensationalizm will result in laws that are enacted in haste and normal law abiding citizens who do treat cars as a hobby and do drive responsibly will suffer for it. This is equivalent to me paying for these guys lack of judgement, even though I'm not responsible for the accident in any way. I don't know about you, but I'm not too keen on paying for other people's mistakes.

 

However, with the way CA is these days I wouldn't be surprised if car hobbyists were soon lumped in with gun owners and treated accordingly. That, I believe, is a real concern. They'll have to pry the keys for my Datsun from [Heston Voice]my cold dead hands[/Heston Voice]

[VRJoe]

There are a lot of issues to consider with this. Should they be drag racing on a public street ? If he had been going the speed limit would he have been able to avoid the accident? Is there a street racing problem the city is trying to stop? The classification of charges can be interesting also, a death occcuring durring the comission of a felony can be classed as murder one. Blatant disregard of the law resulting in a death can be classed as murder two. In civil court, and yes I have no doubt the victims family will sue the drivers, the fact they failed to yield will come into play, but in criminal court it will be negated by the speeding/racing of the drivers. There are more and more DUIs where ther driver is charged with murder two, especially where it is a repeat offender.

 

It will be interesting to see the outcome, of course it will be years before the apeals are finished. Best we can hope for is it will cause someone else to back off the pedal and think about the proper place to race, in that sense the publicity and severitymay be a good thing.

 

 

JMHO - Joe

[Guest Thurem]

It will be interesting to see the outcome' date=' of course it will be years before the apeals are finished. Best we can hope for is it will cause someone else to back off the pedal and think about the proper place to race, in that sense the publicity and severitymay be a good thing.

 

 

JMHO - Joe[/quote']

NO NO NO, The wish for publicity and severity, is like calling on a lynchmob. The fact is we don't know wether or not the racers could have avoided this accident, by not racing. For all we know this accident might have happened if they were just driving down the street and the people in the Geo just turned out in front of them. But because they were racing and the people did die, the charge should be involuntary manslaughter. The only things you can judge people on are the proven facts. The emotional way to judge people is why this country keeps getting more and more laws suppressing the freedom of all people. I fully agree with what ZR8ED wrote. And I think you take the risk of somebody else breaking the law in front of you, when you accept the risk of walking out the front door of your house. So just Watch the F... out for your life at all times, and yes this is the way that I ride my bike, breaking the law, and live my life, I WATCH OUT for myself...

 

People here always seem to wanna blame somebody else, and sue them. Just look at the fatsos that are suing the fast food chains, because they are fat.

I can go on and on, and get more and more unpopular, so I will just shut up now.

Thure

 

Oh yeah, my bike is for sale so check it out in the buy sell trade forum.

[Guest silverbullet]

Personally I also have a problem with prosecutors who for no other reason than their record and upward mobility want to sensationalize and overcharge people, now with that being said I have to agree fully with denny411 in that you need to pull your head out and be responsible and if you absolutely have to street race GET OUT OF TOWN where you only hurt yourself or the other driver, I also feel that maybe 2nd degree charges aren't going far enough, maybe I am a little more conservative than some or maybe more harsh but people died from these idiots actions DAMMIT there needs to be serious punishment for this.

[Guest 1320the260]

someone posted earlier that there have been 3 more deaths because of street racing in california. but that number is so small compared to how many people there are. every 15 minutes someone gets killed or seriously injured from drunk driving. i think that the government should pay more attention to that than to the few people that get killed street racing.

[Guest Anonymous]

Drug testing was performed on almost everyone involved. The corner was on the stand last week, and reported the extent of injuries to those that died. Drugs and Alcohol were tested for and the results were negative. Testing on the younger Hanson brother in the back seat were also negative. Testing on the George Waller Jr. the driver involved also are reported as being negative. As far as I know, no testing was performed on Lawrence Calhoun - most likely because of the number of weeks that had passed until he turned himself in.

 

Timing.... let me try and do some simple math.

 

1 mile is equal to 5,280 feet.

87 miles per hour is equal to 459,360 feet per hour (87x5280)

If you divide 459,360 feet by 60 minutes you get 7,656 feet per minute

Divide 7656 feet by 60 seconds and you get 127.6 feet per second or 42.5 yards per second.

 

The victims car has been estimated at 12 mph. Using the same math as above, the victims car was traveling at 17.6 feet per second.

 

12mph x5280 = 63,360 feet per hour

 

63,360 ft per hour / 60 minutes = 1056 feet per minute

 

17.6 feet per second

 

I'm using some rough numbers now. I believe a lane in California is 10 feet wide. The victims car had to travel 20 feet of straight line distance. However, it was on a turn so the radius would increase this distance to what... 26 feet would be a fair number, but would have to be determined by the radius. If we use the 26 foot number, the victims car traveled for a time of 1.5 seconds of time. Which would have placed the coliding cars distance at 191.4 feet or 63.75 yards away from the route of the victims.

 

The numbers above actually show what it would have taken in time if there wasn't a collision. Again with rough numbers, the distance traveled by the victims had to be closer to 21 feet because the front end of the victims car is not the point of impact. The victims car was struck between the front edge of the passenger door and before the right front tire. Which would mean that the victims car decided to make the turn less then 1.5 seconds before the point of impact. Again... using rough numbers, if the victims car traveled at 12 mph, and went 21 feet then the decision to make the turn occured at 1.25 seconds before the point of impact. George Waller Jr's car was then 159.375 feet or 53.125 yards away from the point of impact.

 

If the distance of time is 1.25 seconds before the point of impact, and the drag racer's were not racing and were doing the 50 mph speed limit. Would the collision occured regardless? No, it wouldn't have... but would it have been a safe and legal left hand turn? I guess that's another one for the jury.

 

Thinking about the math, a safe left hand turn would allow for 3-5 seconds of time to elapse to allow for safe distances to be achived....

 

Don't get me wrong... I've stated my perspective in an earlier post. However, its only my perspective. My point is not to defend anyone in this case. I'm simply trying to understand the case and what impact it might have on me. I like many on this webpage have also street raced before... but I'm thinking, that this is a thing I shouldn't do anymore.

 

 

Dennis

[Mudge]

There was a recent thread on Vettenet that a guy in a

gold vette was in a street race and a couple of people

were killed so the guy took his own life in grief

leaving behind his wife and 2 kids

[Mikelly]

Damn, I go away for about 16 hours and you guys go and get emotional on me.

 

A Comment was made earlier about concern over making mods to your car, and worries of your car hobbie being at risk... Here is a WAKEUP call for ALL OF US:

 

ANY Modifications made to a vehicle to change it from its STOCK configuration will ABSOLUTELY be considered altering the safety and original intent of USE of that vehicle. IF you ever are in the hot seat that these two street racers in San Diego are in, YOU TOO Will get raked over the coals for your mods. And there are laws on the books currently, many of which have been in place for DECADES that would absolutely send you to the slammer... BOTTOM line is that these two guys should ABSOLUTELY be tried together since the both of them were involved... The driver that fled the scene is ABSOLUTELY going to be charged with MORE crimes since he helped cause, then fled the scene of an accident, THEN tried to cover up his involvement, interferring in a police investigation. Will this get "US" bad press? Sure, but no more so than the kid with the loud fart pipe buzzing your subdivision.

 

We argue this on another board all the time... Motorcyclists are VERY passionate about who represents the motorcycling community... The movie Biker Boyz was a total disaster for the image of most motorcyclists, and F&F did the same thing for the car scene. But it is the actions of ALL of us that get called into question when some posser on a sportbike does a stoppie in front of the Mall, or some kid in a Honda burns tires all the way across the fast food parking lot. We're all to blame every time we hammer the throttle and paint pavement, or carve a tastey section of PUBLIC road. The government and our society at large do not look favorably on tax funded transportation avenues being used in such a manor. Poll a cross section of society and if you ask people 30 years or older, the resounding comments will be prefaced by a "HELL NO...."

 

Second Guess the victim's decision to pull across that road all you guys want, but the defendants were traveling 87MILES PER HOUR... You can't judge that kind of speed from the window of a moving vehicle, not with music playing, conversations going on, and the lack of experience of the driver considered... Next time you are at an intersection try and think about that one... I've sat in a squad car with radar gun ON and tried to visually guess at a drivers speed without watching the display... Over time I was able to do it, but not for QUITE a few months. Had she pulled out in front of the defendants when their speeds were in the 40s (Early in their "PASS") then I would have a minimal amount of sympathy for them, as it would seem more obvious that she wasn't paying attention. But as it played out, those kids in that GEO didn't stand a chance and those two guys racing will likely be convicted, justly so.

 

Here is the real tragedy in all this... The victims are dead, and they can't be brought back. These two guys will be reduced to bankruptsy before all is said and done, they won't be popular in their neighborhoods if or when they get out of jail, and they certainly won't be able to get back the health that their bodies have lost in stress alone due to the presures put upon them. I couldn't imagine being able to sleep or eat had I been in their shoes... Those two guys are playing the events of that evening over and over in their minds many times per day. Some day, many years from now, probably decades from now, these two guys MIGHT be lucky enough to get to a point in life that paralleles normalcy, but they will never be the same, and financially they will never rebound from this.

 

Is the city to blame? This reasoning I simply love... Did the mayor of San Diego say "I am NOT GONNA BUILD a drag strip because I want you to young fellows to go out there, hammer the throttle and wait for that young girl and her friends to pull out in front of you..." This is ludicrous. The city of San Diego has no moral obligation to provide a safe avenue for people to exhibit their speed. The city is doing their part to provide a cooperative for local businesses, major businesses and the residents of the region a place to conduct that business and a means to record those transactions, as well as provide other services that the formation of a city afford... No where does providing property for someone to create a drag strip come under the duties of city planner. I hear this crap all the time... "It isn't OUR FAULT. We have nothing else to do..." HORSE SHIT. That is CRAP and everyone who has ever used that lame excuse just dropped several IQ points by letting those words escape their lips...

 

Here is a clue... IF YOU DON'T HAVE A TRACK CLOSE BY, YOU CAN'T LEGALLY PLAY! Now if you are STUPID enough to take the chance and get CAUGHT street racing, YOU CAN GO TO JAIL... You can also HAVE YOUR CAR C-O-N-F-I-S-C-A-T-E-D in Virginia. That's right, in Virginia they are starting to confiscate your cars if YOU get caught racing... Argue ALL YOU WANT, but the bottom line is this... Street racing in the United States is.... Illegal... I-L-L-E-G-A-L... No ifs, No ands, No BUTTS... Do the charges fit the crime? HELL YES and IF those two are convicted, I hope like hell they get the maximum. Two people died and all we want to do is focus on the street racing angle, and if it is fair... These two guys killed some kids who had their WHOLE LIVES ahead of them. Their parents will never get to experience the joy of grandparenthood, or having their children get married, or go to college, or life in general... You know those little things that YOUR parents get to experience with you being around...

 

Think before you race guys... Pick your places if you have to do it on the street... But my guess is there is a track close enough by for you to go to... That excuse is just that... An excuse.

 

Mike

[Mudge]

But, according to Tim Allen and Jay Leno, adding a turbo for example is just a safety modification...

[Dragonfly]

I am going to move away from the theme of this thread for a minute to try to explain some of my earlier comments.

 

First off it is important to note that people are generaly lazy, most people will not go very far out of their way to do anything they do not absolutely have to. With that being said we could have 25 conveinently located race venues and we would still have races on the streets "why spend an hour of my life going through tech etc. when I can spend less than a minute to show this whimp who is king".

 

Now where I blame the city of SD, I agree that the city has no obligation moral or otherwise to provide anything to a special interest group nor do I think that the city incourages any one to race. My issue with the city is that they have a piece of unused land (used to be a city dump but has been filled and they put a freeway on one side and a bussines distrect on the other side leaving a large empty area in between) that is sitting there creating dust and has been vacant for over 20 years. The city was asked for permission to use this land and offered a reasonable lease rate, the city said no and did not that I am aware of offer a reason for declining.

 

The other issue with the city is that they have found that creating revinue by issuing tickets in therre normal fashion has impacted the cities growth (no one wants to live where they get busted constantly), so the city has discovered a great solution if they can create the feeling that racing is a huge problem and that any vehicle that has a visible or audible modification is a racer then there is no public outcry when the volume of tickets is increased dramaticaly for the racers but the general motoring public can cruise around at 85 to 90 mph and not worry about getting a ticket. As an example there is a section of freeway where I was cited for 70 in a 65 zone in my Z but a few months later I was in a hurry and went by at 85 in my beater truck, I saw sitting there the same officer who had cited me in my Z, I thought for sure I had a fat ticket coming to me but he never came after me, since then I have seen several "ricers" pulled over in that stretch. In and around San Diego the only time I ever see a car being cited that is not modified it is only by CHP and never by SDPD.

 

For the reasons above I personaly feel San Diego incouraging the view of a crises that is blown way out of proportion. Beyond that my feelings are that if you are busted doing something illegal you should pay the consiquences and if your actions cause the death or injury of another the consiquences should reflect that action.

 

This thread has hit on an aspect in my life that I am very passionate about and that is why I am getting so wound up here.

 

Dragonfly

[Mikelly]

Fly, On a personal level I absolutely understand why this is such a concern for all auto enthusiasts, myself include. The last post I made was from the legal, law enforcement, and devil's advocate side of my brain... Could there be more options, more reasonable options? Sure. Best way to get them opened up is to get someone with the right amount of horsepower/ funds to support it.

 

Remember one of my first observations had nothing to do with fairness... It had to do with how the DA, an elected official chose to pursue the issue... There is a presumption that any modified vehicle is A: Illegally modified B: in the act of breaking some statute or C: preparing to be in the act to break some statute... In essence, guilty until proven innicent. However, High profile cases such as the one hilited in this thread go a long way toward that presumption of guilt...

Perception and reality... sometimes it doesn't matter where one ends and the other begins... Sad, really.

 

Mike

[Mudge]

Wont be too many years (months?) before speed limiters are 75 MPH mandatory on all vehicles, bah.

[Georgia Flash]

I have to say one more thing here before I decide to quit on this one. Cops are not robots and most of them could give a rats ass about what the mayor and city hall wants so the argument that the (City) cops are cracking down and not the CHP is pretty lame.

 

I happen to work for a municipality and have been doing so for about 12 years. I have seen a lot of cops come and go. It is extremely important for the public to understand that cops are people too. They each bring their own prejudices to the job with them.

 

We have cops that would stop you and give you a ticket for forgetting to turn on your headlights as you leave McDonalds in your MINI VAN on a Monday night.

 

On the flip side to that, we also have em that you could buzz by at 100 mph and they would just ignore you. The notion that all cops stick together is long gone. It is my opinion that the "brotherhood" that once existed between officers is now non existant. There is a lot of throat cutting amongst officers now.

 

Just wanted to dispell the big "City cop" conspiracy theory. And by the way I don't know about your state but here in GA the state troopers are always the hard asses not the local police. Just ask the brothers that have tried to make the trip down I-75 into Atlanta for Freak nic and they will tell you about the GA State Patrol lined up to catch them and only them.

 

I have said it on here before and so I will say it once more. Go to your local Police Department and ask them to let you do a ride along. Do it on a Friday or Saturday night and I will be willing to bet that your whole perspective on what we do will change.

[Dragonfly]

Mike you are absolutely correct and I know with your background you are one of the people who is truly qualified to state some of the realitys and legalities involved, even though I get wound up I will never take anything said personal. This is also a good time for me to say that everything I am saying is MY PERSONAL VIEW AND OPINIONS and in no way should they be associated with zcsd etc.

 

I hope to never see 75 mph limiters installed on cars and with the trend from manufacturers I probably never will.

 

Dragonfly

[Guest bang847]

Im not too sure but my ricer friends tell me that is you speed in excess of 130 they don't charge you with speeding here instead the charge you with attempted murder. Im not too sure but that might require a passenger in the speeding car. something like that.