georgiaz Posted August 12, 2003 Share Posted August 12, 2003 I took the Z to a reputable alignment shop this weekend and was told I probably have a bent front strut housing causing too much camber on the right and that I have too much toe in the right rear. Although the guy spent a good bit of time with the car on the machine trying to figure out the rear toe and discussing what he saw, he did not charge me because he didn't correct anything. Here's how it reads on the machine: Front Left Right Camber 0.5 -1.4 Cross Camber 2.0 Caster 2.7 2.4 Cross Caster 0.3 Toe -0.15 -0.00 Total Toe -0.15 Rear Left Right Camber -0.1 -0.4 Cross Camber -0.5 Toe 0.26 0.30 Total Toe 0.57 Thrust Angle 0.04 I've done some searches and found discussions on this topic, especially the rear toe, but I'm still not clear on what I should do from here. The front end guy says I will see significant rear tire wear with that much toe on the rear. I understand from previous posts that some toe is built in, but how much is too much. I have a complete Hyperflex bushing kit, KYB strut cartridges, stock springs, Ross' Z to Honda adapters, 16x7 wheels with 215/50 Kumos. The car actually drives rather nice. Some guidance would be much appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drax240z Posted August 12, 2003 Share Posted August 12, 2003 Well your left front camber looks like the problem to me, not your right front! You want negative static camber, not positive. As for rear toe, I haven't played a ton with it. Rear toe out will bring the back end of the car around easier, and can aid in turning. Too much will lead to a car that swaps ends very easiliy. Rear toe in will have the opposite effect, the car won't turn quite as well, but it won't swap ends as easily. I'm not sure -1.4 degrees camber up front isn't too much for the street... If you are +0.5 on the other side I'm betting the car turns a whole lot better to the left than it does to the right though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim240z Posted August 12, 2003 Share Posted August 12, 2003 On the front camber, try this: Jack up the car and put jack stands under the frame rails (anywhere but the cross member). Loosen the 2 bolts on either side of the cross member (4 total that holds the cros member to the body) and try to slide the cross member over to the driver's side. That will make the pass. side more positive (camber) and the driver's side more negative. That is of cours if nothing is bent. Check your strut tube and stub axle. Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synlubes Posted August 12, 2003 Share Posted August 12, 2003 You might want to install frt and rear ajustable camber bushings. They can be purchased from MSA, V.B. as well as other suppliers. With the ajustable bushings you should be able to get things back into spec or even better. Yes, ck strut housing and control arms for damage. If you have the cash, take the car to a frame shop and have them ck / strighten it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted August 12, 2003 Share Posted August 12, 2003 Geez, you've got a lot of toe out in the back. SKETCHY!!! Should be 0 or toed in. Not out, at least not on a Z. Probably wearing the inside of the rear tires pretty bad, huh? You say it drives fine, but I bet if you did some laps on a track you'd notice that toe out! Under heavy braking the back would tend to wander really bad with those settings. Probably gets sideways pretty easy too, I'd imagine. You can adjust toe to some degree with the G Machine camber bushings in the back as others have said, but they are noisy as hell, just to warn you up front, and they are not real easy to adjust. The only other way I can think of to adjust the rear toe is to buy an adjustable control arm like the ones at http://www.arizonazcar.com. I'd fix it, one way or the other. IMO about -.3 degrees toe (total) is about right for the back. Makes the car more stable in all situations. Sorry, no easy (or cheap) fix for that one that I'm aware of. Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted August 13, 2003 Share Posted August 13, 2003 From the numbers you also have a rear tracking problem. Do what Tim recommends regarding the front crossmember. Also, replace all the rear lower control arm bushings (inner and outer) to see if your toe issue gets corrected. While doing that, inspect the rear crossmember (where the front diff mounts) and the the two clamps that go over the rear control arm bushings. Often the corssmember or the rear clamps loosen and move causing wierd toe problems. I've also seen worn rear clamps that can only be fixed by shimming the bushings with small, thin strips of stainless steel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
georgiaz Posted August 13, 2003 Author Share Posted August 13, 2003 I will try shifting the front cross member to see what happens. The rear control arm bushings are new. The inner ones are HyperFlex poly. The outer ones are new stock because I damaged the poly ones trying to get them in. The spindle pins are new also. I will take a look at the rear cross member and clamps, but I'm not sure if I would be able to detect any damage or wear visually. I'm still open for suggestions. Does anyone know how much Mike's adjustable control arms sell for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Want aZ Posted August 13, 2003 Share Posted August 13, 2003 GaZ, Only problem with Mike's adj Control Arms is that HE DOESNT MAKE THEM ANY MORE Said he was getting out of the business because of his new job and all... I was planning on doing the same thing, but your a few steps ahead of me. As I dont have a Z as of yet, and dont really want to spend any additional cash right now as I retire form the military in 6 months. Am doing the Job Search thing right now, but no luck yet. Sent my resume out yesterday to a contractor that works at NASA. Still waiting to hear... Damon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
georgiaz Posted August 13, 2003 Author Share Posted August 13, 2003 Congrats on the upcoming retirement and thanks for serving your country! It looks like I have some work ahead of me to get this thing figured out. I don't want to start throwing money at the problem hoping for a fix. It's just hard to figure how both sides can be toed out without something being obvious. Arizona Z Car wants $325 each for adjustable control arms and that ain't exactly in the budget. Except for this problem it's a driver now. I'm still open for suggestions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted August 13, 2003 Share Posted August 13, 2003 The G Machine bushings are the cheapest way to fix. They are a little tricky to install, and I haven't done it in 6 years or so, but I'm sure someone will chime in here. I had someone holding my hand while I did it (you never learn anything that way), but if memory serves you have to file the end of the control arm to be slightly shorter (couple of thou) than the bushing itself. Otherwise the bushings slide back and forth on the end of the control arm. If you are tight on cash, G Machine bushings are probably your answer. Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted August 13, 2003 Share Posted August 13, 2003 It only takes something to be a "little bit" off for you to see toe changes in the rear. With hard launches, lots of horsepower, or just age the rear control arms spread at the front and you see toe changes. Again, hard acceleration and braking puts the loads into the crossmember at the front of ther rear cradle. After 30+ years you can expect to see changes like this. Just replacing the bushings won't neceissarily fix the problem. Take everything apart, inspect and measure, replace fasteners and bushings, and carefully reinstall and torque everything to spec. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 GeorgiaZ, I have similar problems on my 280Z, though I didn't get the exact measurements. Front left and front right camber settings differ by about 2 degrees, rear left and rear right also differ from one another by about two degrees, though in the opposite sense. And now that I look at it again, the rear tires have substantial toe-in. After some discussions when I posted about this last year, the consensus was that either the chassis was somehow bent or the steering crossmember was skewed off to one side. Then I disassembled the suspension on all 4 corners, and found that the McPherson strut assemblies on the front right and rear left corners had incorrect kingpin inclination angles (not exactly the correct term for a McPherson strut - I refer to the included angle between the strut housing axis, and the spindle axis). The problem is entirely with the strut assemblies, NOT the unibody. Since then, I have been looking for parts-cars from which to grab stock suspension pieces. To-date, I've seen that many, many Z's have similar problems - and I surprised that more folks on this board haven't reported such problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
georgiaz Posted August 14, 2003 Author Share Posted August 14, 2003 Thanks for the info. I have had everything off of the car during this rebuild and replaced every bushing on it. If one of the peices such as the strut housing was out of wack or a control arm, I failed to recognize it. This has been my first experience with a Z car so that would not be a suprise. Even though I have no desire, as stated previously, to throw money at the problem, after I remove and inspect the control arms, strut housings, cross member and clamps I guess my only option is to replace any suspect parts with good(?) used ones. Since both sides are toed out does anyone agree that the crossmember/clamps may be the likely source of the problem? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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