Jersey Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 How's this setup sound? What do you think the spool speed/hit will be like? What's everyone running and how do they like it? Looking down the road to building this into a 350-450hp Z and would rather not short change myself in the beginning of the build (actually cousins Z) His T3 is smoked and needs to replace it now and he figures he may as well do a hybrid now than spend the $ on another T3. I've read a LOAD of info in the archives and i was wondering what everyones current setups are. I'm just trying not to make a mistake while spending $600 of his hard earned cash Thanks in advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleeperZ Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 Sounds like the turbo would kick a$$, jersey. Of course the stage 3 turbine is still considered very streetable, maybe you should move up to a stage 5 - you wouldn't want any exhaust restriction would you? And you might need to upgrade your fuel system, or turn down the boost, as that turbo will be flowing lots more air. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jersey Posted September 24, 2003 Author Share Posted September 24, 2003 Nathan - can you explain the difference between stage 5 and stage 3? Would it cost more and would it be the same install as the stage 3? I'm real ignorant when it comes to choosing a T for these cars as this is the first time i'm ever doing it. I've been N/A all my life As i understand and read about it, a 62-1 compressor would spool a little slower, right? Maybe i should go 57-1 trim or even a 50 or 54-1? I wish there was data posted on different setups like, a T04E 57-1, stage3, .63a/r will hit strong at this rpm and start to drop off here...and a 60-1, stage3, .63a/r hits here and does this...blahblah. I also understand, given that fuel is supplied through the boost pressure, the compression was the same on each L28ET the T3/T4 tested on, all makes a difference but, all those variables taken care of and fixed, just to see the gains/losses each different setup affected the L28ET. Trying to get the car to not be a complete dog down low but will also pull to 6k rpm stong. And i need to order it today for him!! haha. Go figure. Hey, thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleeperZ Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 Here's my perspective on turbos, FWIW. The compressor has little to no effect on spool up; that is almost all due to the turbine and exhaust restriction. I was partially kidding about going to a stage 5, as the spool up is a bit slower, but the top end is wide open. Perhaps stage 5 is a better choice with a cam shaft and a higher rev limit, but for street and stock motors, the stage 3 should be good, and you will keep most of your response. I don't know how pricing is. And again, for a streetable car, you may also be better off with a TO4E compressor than the 60-1, although people have had excellent results with the 60-1. I base my comments only on my review of the compressor maps, and for the 350-450 hp range, the TO4E compressor is more efficient (less intercooler load, cooler intake charge temp) than the 60-1. For all-out flow, the 60-1 is superior, but you pay a price with extra heat. The 0.63 a/r on the hot side is as close to ideal as you can get with a T3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jersey Posted September 24, 2003 Author Share Posted September 24, 2003 HA! Now you have me completely confused. Sorry. I though i was going to get a T04E WITH a 60-1 wheel, and now you're saing they're completey different! See, shows how much i know. Here's one of the pages on a site i was looking at - http://www.turbochargers.com/Turbos/TurboUpgrades/T3-T4-Hybrid.htm - Just thought this was a T04E and you just need to choose what trim you want. If i'm sounding retarded, i am when it comes to this. Learn me Nathan, learn me!!! haha. Thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yo2001 Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 That's what I got. Mine is in T04B hosing so I didn't have to use a spacer. I like mine, the boost comes real smooth and I not getting too much lag at all. Here is my turbo spec .60 A/R T04B with 60-1 wheel .63 A/R T3 with T-31 or stage III You can get a T04E housing with 60-1 in it with a special backing plate and it's real nice combo there. BTW, 60-1 will outflow just about any wheel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jersey Posted September 24, 2003 Author Share Posted September 24, 2003 Yo - would you configure it any different now since you ran for a bit with this setup? I didn't know with an E you'd need a spacer but could get away without using one if you went B series? Is the flange thicker or is the snail shell made of thicker material causing it to hit the manifold? Heck, i really don't know the differences between the E and B series except that i heard you have more options with the E and that's it's more efficient than the B series. Why that is, i have no idea. I'd rather not have to use a spacer because I KNOW i'll be on my back for hours, tapping the manifold after i break the studs trying to get them out to replace them with longer ones Do you guys have a suggestion for best price and service on these? I've heard Majestic, Turbonetics, Turbo City and TurboChargers.com but not sure who to go through. Thanks. Learning lots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yo2001 Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 If I had a choice to upgrade mine, I'll go with T04E housing on the cold side (keeping my 60-1 wheel) and a 10 blade stage III (rather than 11blade like I got) on the hot side. But that those itself would cost me about $150 plus labor. T04E is a redesigned newer housing, it's physically bigger than B series with same A/R too. that's why it won't clear the manifold without clocking the turbo downward. Even with B housing, the 60-1 will be more effiecient than other T04B wheels like H-3 and V trim. (3-4% I think) It's also got more broad effieciency range than most of the TO4E wheels. I've not had much complain about 60-1. O, you would need to get the WB flapper hole enlarged with a larger flapper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BayAreaZT Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 Here are some compressor maps for you to look at http://64.225.76.178/catalog/compmaps/fig6.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jersey Posted September 24, 2003 Author Share Posted September 24, 2003 Yo - so you're saying that the redesigned E series flows better, obviously since you would make that change, right? Why would you change to the 10 blade instead of your 11 blade? And in which configuration will in need to open up the WG hole and get a bgger flapper? Sorry i'm asking so many questions and really appreciate the info. Wouldn;t want you to think of me as Bastaad's twin J/K 525 if you read this I'm really trying to understand it all in a short amount of time to make the best decision. Bay, thanks. Looks like that 60-1 does have a real broad range. Very nice. What's our stock T3 trim...40? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yo2001 Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 10 blade Stage III is redesigned blade that's more effiecient. It looks like stage V but .25inch smaller in diameter. You need to mod. the flapper if you are internally gated which you should be since you got a stock T3 (which I think it's 60 trim) I think the flapper can come out of GN unit if I remember right. I think ScottieGNZ knows more about that. BTW, this would make this easier 60-1, see the right side edge and see how much it can flow. compared with 60trim T04E, Also, notice that 60-1 and T04E 60trim is in different scale. (which make it seems that the 60-1 less broad) 60-1 can be in its highest effiecincy for 30lb/min to 40lb/min at 1.70 bar while 60trim is in the highest effiecncy from about 24lb/min to 30lb/min at 1.8 bar. However, the 60trim is more effiecient in higher boost level than 60-1 (I think that's due to the fact that the 60-1 outflows the t04B housing aroud that boost level) I guess that's why ppl prefer the T04E housing to get more effiecency in higher boost level with 60-1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad-ManQ45 Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 I'd like to interject some data here if I may about the compressor wheel. It DOES make a difference, especially if you clip or go to a more flow turbine. The larger wheel will move air faster, having a positive effect on the slower spoolup from the turbine change. This is the basis for a lot of the sport turbo upgrades - you keep the same basic spool characteristics as you are providing for more air and top end exhaust flow.... I have a T3/T4 S-3 trim compressor and clipped turbine, and I actually build boost a little earlier than stock, and get a lot more oomph up top. Since I wasn't planning on going to larger injectors, this seemed to be the best combo for me (as recommended by Turbonetics) and I'm happy with it. When the local Z service put the turbo on and upgraded to a 3" exhaust, they said that it was the quickest stock injector '83 ZXT they had had in their shop. The owner had a dyno'd 622hp stroker '83 in the shop (at 24 lbs boost) and gave me a ride (at 19) and all I can say is WOW! He sold that one and built a '72 240 w/525 HP 383 that he said was just BRUTAL! Enough... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jersey Posted September 24, 2003 Author Share Posted September 24, 2003 Thanks a bunch guys. Now i need to go home and do some research and make a decision in the morning and order one for him. I like the sounds of both options, each with their own pro's and con's. Right now, I'm leaning more toward Yo's exact setup with the B series 60-1. Decisions, decisions. Damn i wish i was ordering one for myself!!!! Soon i hope. Thanks again for all the time and info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yo2001 Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 Stage III will spool slower but since the spool is not as violent, I can get more power to the ground instead of having a tire burning machine. Jersey, you are not allow to go any faster than 12.8, you are making us 280 owners look bad. j/k Don't foget to get 360 deg trust bearing, should be standerd with 60-1 but won't hurt to ask your turbo builder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleeperZ Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 Jersey, regarding the 60-1, that is an older design wheel that originally was fit to a TO4B housing. I don't know what changes (especially efficiency) when that wheel is fit to a newer TO4E housing. I should have been more specific - when I say TO4E, I mean wheel and housing. Any trim seems to work ok for a Z motor, and I've always liked (on paper) how the 50 trim works. I am, however, keeping my ears open for what works well in the REAL WORLD, especially at my altitude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yo2001 Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 I second Sleeper on the 50 trim too. that's what I was going to get. I heard that 50 trim is hard to come by though. Since many ppl just go with 57 or 60 and 50 isn't too common order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug71zt Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 Jersey - I'm going to wade in with my (current) opinion. I have a TO4E .60 a/r 60 trim compressor with a .63 stage III 11 blade turbine in a ford/turbonetics housing. I had massive boost creep problems on it when I first put it on. I had ported the exhaust manifold and made a 3/4" spacer. BTW - you are right on the studs - they don't want to come out of the manifold from the bottom two holes - I had to machine them out and chase the threads. To control the boost creep, I machined the WG hole out to 1.25" and made a 1.5" flapper. That is the biggest you can go with a ford/turbonetics housing. Now my minimum boost level at 6.5K is 14 psi with the WG full open. I don't recommend building up a turbo like this. It is true the boost ramps up nicely with the stage III 11 blade but it drives the compressor too hard. It needs to bypass more exhaust flow. I would hold out for a 10 blade stage III or stage V if you go with the 60 trim or 60-1 in the TO4E housing. The compressor side just moves too much air when driven hard. Way too much turbo for a basically stock engine. I think you would be fine with a smaller compressor and a stage III turbine - say 50 trim - and an IC, bigger injectors, etc,etc... . I think that is what the JWT sport 400 turbo is - anyone with different info please correct me. There you go - Sorry about the long windedness. As always - just my opinion. Good luck - Doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fl327 Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 I like the full t04e better than the hybrid. I dont want the turbo spooling like the stock one, I would hope that the turbo hits a bit later when I finally do swap it out. Wondering Doug. You had to port your exhaust manifold just to aid with spike issues? You are running an internal wastegate though right? Im going to a tial ex wg , plumbed into a motorcycle muffler pointed out after the drivers side front tire!!!!! Hopefully I can get fire to shoot out of it. When does boost hit with your t04e Doug? I am going to use a t04e 60-1 with a .58a/r with a stage 3 wheel, ball bearing. I am hoping boost to hit around 3500-7k rpm, I am hoping to sacrifice all bottom end torque for mid and top end. I have seen great results from a 57 trim t04b/t3, and it is a bolt on upgrade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yo2001 Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 Doug, I got an opposite problem with mine, spike 14psi and settle back down to 12psi to 6000rpm. fl327-You shouldn't have a stage III turbine wheel if you got a T04E. Prolly like P trim or something. (2.5 or so exducer) With what you got on your T04E with P trim, (T61 or something like that) would hit full boost at 3600-3700rpm with no BB. That's what I was told from a guy who had T61 on his car. So you would hit boost hard around 3200 or so I guess with BB. But I don't know if it'll make much power above 5500rpm with a stock cam. My car seems to peak around 5500rpm depite the size of the turbo. I guess it's time for a cam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug71zt Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 FL327 - I ported the stock exhaust manifold to improve flow. I also went with a 3" mandrel DP and exhaust with a Magnaflow straight-thru. I think that that created some of my boost creep by eliminating other restrictions in the system, so the pressure drop is all across the turbine. Yes I am running a Ford/Turbonetics internal WG. Boost comes on around 2.6-2.8K and it will make 25 psi at around 3-3.2K - I found that out while tuning it. Yo2001- sounds like there is somewhere else in the system that is restricting flow at higher volumes (muffler/manifold/DP/TB/IC/IC piping??) I don't think that you will be topping out your compressor flow anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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