Jersey Posted September 25, 2003 Author Share Posted September 25, 2003 Brad, Yo, Sleeper, Doug, 327 - Thanks for all the info. I think i'm stuck because i wanted to try and keep the internal flapper, even if i opened it up to 1-1.25", but it doesn't seen like that would even be enough and will create spiking and/or creep, which i'd rather not have. My decision this morning was basically to go 50trim, T04B housing, .63a/r T3 stage 3, 360 thrust, water/oil. But now from your posts, it seems that configuration would just give me problems with an internal WG so i really have no idea which way to go right now. He's not going to want to spend the extra $3-350 for and external WG which would put the setup near $1k. I was trying to configure the best possible option for around $650 and it doesn't look like anything in that price range will flow "correctly" I was told by one builder that putting a E wheel in a B housing will drop efficiency by 3-4% as Yo said, but he said it would go un-noticed. Another builder i talked to said it would make a big difference in efficiency and would affect performance dramatically. Go figure. Also, i asked about the 10 blade stage 3 and they didn't know anything about it. I really have no idea which direction to point my cousin in at this point, partly due to the fact that i'm green behind the ears when it comes to this. Whole new relm. Thanks again guys. My brain hurts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yo2001 Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 Jersey, you can get turbonetics 's stage III and they are all 10 blades I believe. But they are not known for their fast service if you are working with a time limit. And you should be able to control boost enough with internal WG. I'm running factory Nissan actualtor and I think that's one of my problem. I think eventually, I'm going with 15psi preset GN unit or dual port from turbonetics. Anyway, effeciency is everything on turbo IMO, more efficient, less heat, more HP. 8) Doug, I'm not outflowing the compressor housing yet. But I'm sure if I get to 300whp or so that it will. (I'm onlt on 12psi right now.) 60-1 will outflow the .60 A/R T04B with not much more boost than 12 (I guess in 16-18psi) since it really moves alot of air. (I don't kow exactly when since I'm not measuring the thermal dymanic of the compressor housing ) Plus it was suppose to be used with .70 A/R housing. I guess I can go with T04S housing whenever that happens. I got all mendral 3inch DP, exhaust, 60mm TB (polished) HKS IC. I do have small 2inch IC piping but I know it's good until 300RWHP or so which I'm not going to get since I'm quiting engine mod for now. (it's time for me to upgrade the brakes) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jersey Posted September 25, 2003 Author Share Posted September 25, 2003 Ok, i decided - 50trim E wheel in a machined B housing, oil/water center, bullet, Stage III clipped in a .63. I hope my cousin likes it...damn it! If i take my little T3 off ahead of time, clean it up reeeeal good, do ya think i can slip it by him as the Hybrid? hmmmm.... The only problem i see is controlling the boost from spiking using the internal WG. I guess how others suggested, port it as far as she's go safetly and create/build/buy a bigger flapper for it. It should be fine to run this way until he does more upgrades - fuel, exhaust, I.C... - by then we should hopefully have found a good donor 240 for the motor and then we'll go external WG. I hope i got it right Hey, it's his $750, not mine! haha. Just kidding. Thanks a buch for the crash course. Learned a bunch in one day. Appreciate it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleeperZ Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 BTW, boost CREEP is different from boost SPIKE. Spiking is the boost level initially overshooting your setpoint on throttle application, then settling to a constant level. Creeping is the boost growing with increasing RPM, and is caused by too small of a wastegate (or too low of a boost setting ). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jersey Posted September 25, 2003 Author Share Posted September 25, 2003 Nathan - I mentioned spike because Yo2001 was having this problem with possibly some sort of restriction, as Doug mentioned and Doug seems to be creeping with a wastegate restriction. I have no idea if this setup will creep/spike/be fine until i put it in, i was just going by what i read between Yo and Doug and just wrote spike. I guess i should have mentioned both creep and/or spike. Sorry, i'll pay more attention next time. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fl327 Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 Doug-thanx, thats good to know! 25psi at 3200 you say, oh shoot I think im in trouble Im going to use ex wg hopefully I can hold a steady boost that way, with a 3" dp. Yo-thanks for clearing that up, this is my first turbo car that I am swapping out to a big turbo. I am still kind of unfamiliar with stuff like wheel and what not, I will measuer exducer and see what I really have going on in there. I do know the wheel in the turbo is almost twice as big as a stock datsun sized exhaust wheel, and the compressor side-NO COMP. I think stock cam is good for around 6500rpm and close to 350rwhp in a turbo application-not the best cam for it but it will work, I set mine up 2 degrees retarded and 24 btdc will pull to 6500 fast. In the future I want at least 8.2 cr, ( stock bottom end, pistons with arp and shaved, ported and shimmed p90) and a turbo grind. 7.4-1 makes for a somewhat lazy engine to me, ever since I drove a N42 turbo car everytime I get into driving mine I can imagine how much harder it would hit with a cr increase. Jersey-the 50 trim will work great. I would have went with a smaller hybrid if I hadnt gotten my turbo parts for a labor trade, much easier to install as well. Since I have the turbo- well you know how we do I may have a new bolt in 370cc injector swap and a means to keep it lean as well, Ill keep you posted. May not be ideal a/f and a bit rich on top end, but I think I can tune the t4ebb setup with an afm for 300rwhp ( my goal is a modest 280hp for my 280z!, 280 from the 280, get it?), and go kick some import/domestec @55 This is one of those re-occuring threads that I like to read and learn from, as well as share input, thanx. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yo2001 Posted September 26, 2003 Share Posted September 26, 2003 Stock turbo cam will turn 6500rpm easy but still seems to peak HP around 5500rpm. That's what I got from couple of my dynos and dynosheets I've seen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleeperZ Posted September 26, 2003 Share Posted September 26, 2003 Stock turbo cam will turn 6500rpm easy but still seems to peak HP around 5500rpm. That's what I got from couple of my dynos and dynosheets I've seen Yeah, my stock headed motor just doesn't like spinning past 6000. Maybe this winter I'll have the cash and opportunity to get my turbo cam/rebuilt P90 back on the F54.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug71zt Posted September 26, 2003 Share Posted September 26, 2003 Jersey - I don't think you will have any creep problem with a 50 trim wheel and a stage 3 wheel even in a TO4E housing. I have the problem with my setup because of the 60 trim and my removal of other system restrictions. I built my turbo for my upcoming 3.05L engine with a big turbo cam and a ported head. It's just a little much for a stock block 2.8. BTW - there is a hybrid for sale on zcar.com classifieds under the parts section - a new listing that looks like it is exactly what you are looking for. $595. Not my listing - don't know the seller - just came across it. http://www.zcar.com/classifieds/index.php?method=showdetails&list=advertisement&rollid=6130&fromfromlist=classifiedscategory&fromfrommethod=showhtmllist&fromfromid=34& Cheers - Doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fl327 Posted September 26, 2003 Share Posted September 26, 2003 I think that hp is tapering off after 5500 because of the ignition/fuel curve, not the cam or stock head limit. Peak hp and there, but what I can see as common in the dynos ive seen is that no matter how much power you can make at peak from the oem efi setups, the curve just isnt right. Being that the curve isnt adjustable without some serious know how, theres not much you can do without going to jwt or going with a full standalone to fix that- and if you made 150 or 350hp-hp will always taper off around 5500. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted September 26, 2003 Share Posted September 26, 2003 I need more money..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jersey Posted September 26, 2003 Author Share Posted September 26, 2003 You and me both 525! Thanks all for the info. 327 - please keep me posted as i think the next upgrade i want to make TO MY Z is the 370cc injectors. I don't even mind building a custom rail if need be, i'm just having a heck of a time finding the 370's around here in NJ. Doug, glad to hear that you don't think there'll be creep. Thanks for the link...i wish I had the money to buy it right now, i would. I hooked my cousin up with Kevin from Majestic already and he's going to place the order tomorrow morning, built tomorow afternoon and out the door overnight tomorrow night Not anxious or anything If this was for me, i might take the chance on spending kind of coin with someone selling it like that independantly and most likely wont give any type of warrenty but, i want to play this one safe since it's for my cousin Nick. I really have to plug a good word in here about Kevin from Majestic - He really helped me out and was very informative. Seemed like an honest, knowledgeabe businessman which is hard to find these days. Ok, can't stop thinking if i'm going with the right wheel and was wondering if someone could put it to me straight - I chose the 50trim but i'm still wondering if i should use the 57 trim instead? I'm assuming the 50 trim wont have as much lag as the 57, but might top out in the rpm range a little earlier and will limit his HP a little on the low side. Can anyone give me a round-a-bout ranges of RPM's these 2 wheels will be in thier peak efficiency? How about HP limits on each? I read the graphs but still not quite sure how to calculate the #'s i'm asking about I'd hate to go with the 50 trim and find it hits low at like 2k rpm but dies out around 5k rpm. When your running hard, the next shift usually puts you back on 3500-4k rpm anyway. I'm assuming the 57 will come on later but will probably be more efficient up top, say around 5500-6000rpm where the 50 might be flat and turning into a hair dryer. AND...now that i think of it...the 57 might be too much wheel for the internal WG and cause creep where-as, as Doug was saying, i may not creep at all with the smaller wheel! UG....Can you tell i'm trying my best to make the right decision here!!! haha. Can't imagine what i'll be going through when it's for ME! ha. Oh and BTW, Kevin's getting his guys to open the WG hole 1/2" (he said it should be near 1.25" afterword) and is putting in a Saab flapper - i think it's 1.5". I think he gave me (my cousin) a pretty darn good deal for $750 - 50 or 57E wheel in a T04B housing, .63 Stage III clipped, oil&water cooled, bullet nose, porting the WG hole and installing the flapper, adapter to weld to the DP. Even if it is a little higher than someone else, which i don't think it is, he seems like a good man and deserves my (cousins) business. Oh yeah, and said he would split the price of overnighting it. Nice. Thanks again guys. Appreciate the knowledge. Damn i wish i was ordering for me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kennysgreen280zt Posted September 26, 2003 Share Posted September 26, 2003 Funny thing, kevin from majestic has had my turbo since FEB and hasnt been able to get a quote together for it to get fixed yet. not bad mouthing him at all, im just confused why everyone else has had a great experience there. later ~Kenny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jersey Posted September 26, 2003 Author Share Posted September 26, 2003 Sorry to hear that Kenny. Who knows how it'll all turn out but, as of now, it all seems good. Then again, just recently, i was basically in this same exact position and someone that a bunch of people on this board and other Z boards trusts, completely screwed me. So who knows. Hope it all works out for ya soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleeperZ Posted September 26, 2003 Share Posted September 26, 2003 I think that hp is tapering off after 5500 because of the ignition/fuel curve' date=' not the cam or stock head limit. Peak hp and there, but what I can see as common in the dynos ive seen is that no matter how much power you can make at peak from the oem efi setups, the curve just isnt right.Being that the curve isnt adjustable without some serious know how, theres not much you can do without going to jwt or going with a full standalone to fix that- and if you made 150 or 350hp-hp will always taper off around 5500.[/quote'] Not sure on what you are basing your assumptions. I have run stock and aftermarket cams, the stock ones peak their hp 5000-5500 because that's how they're ground. I know the "fuel curve" is not cut back, as the A/F ratio is flat to redline, that's what I like about the factory ECU. I know of no one that has been able to disclose what the ignition curve does - I suppose they could have programmed that to retard based on maximum load and rpm; then again the aftermarket cam doesn't mind spinning hard against the fuel cut... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted September 26, 2003 Share Posted September 26, 2003 I'd rather have a turbo that kicked in and died off sooner. I do a lot of around town street driving, and never really find I need to rev higher than 5500 anyways. I dont think the L28 was ever meant to be this super high revving motor, why put a turbo on that needs you to do that to use it? I'd rather have that instant snap... if it tapered off at 5000 than kewl shift at 5000 either way I'm right back in the power band and pulling hard... and anyways it's easier on the drivetrain... more dependability sits well with me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yo2001 Posted September 26, 2003 Share Posted September 26, 2003 Pretty much, the cam will determind the powerband. The timing I think will boost the torque some which leads more HP but can go much more than 26 deg under boost on forced induction car. My fuel is tuned 12:1 A/F all the way to 6k rpm so the fuel isn't the issue. Plus, I'm running alot more timing than stock too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DatsunBoy77 Posted September 29, 2003 Share Posted September 29, 2003 What about the turbos like http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2434656391&category=33742 that you see on ebay. i am running a turbo header w/ external wastegate, and i am looking for a different turbo than the one i am was going to run on this that i dont really understand because it is a KKK turbo. Is the compressor side too small? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleeperZ Posted September 29, 2003 Share Posted September 29, 2003 What about the turbos like http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2434656391&category=33742[/url'] that you see on ebay. i am running a turbo header w/ external wastegate, and i am looking for a different turbo than the one i am was going to run on this that i dont really understand because it is a KKK turbo. Is the compressor side too small? That looks like a good street turbo, but I'd try to find out which turbine wheel it has, and if the outlet flange is designed for external or internal wastegate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cody 82 ZXT Posted September 29, 2003 Share Posted September 29, 2003 I'd rather have a turbo that kicked in and died off sooner. I do a lot of around town street driving, and never really find I need to rev higher than 5500 anyways. I dont think the L28 was ever meant to be this super high revving motor, why put a turbo on that needs you to do that to use it? I'd rather have that instant snap... if it tapered off at 5000 than kewl shift at 5000 either way I'm right back in the power band and pulling hard... and anyways it's easier on the drivetrain... more dependability sits well with me Give it awhile you'll change your mind. A larger turbo with more top end grunt will beat a small turbo that petters out before you hit the top end. Another factor in losing the top end charge is the engine program it's self. After I changed my computer the top end really came alive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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