Guest ZmeFly Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 its about driveability and ease of tuning after the fact. its why i would want this upgrade as i call it because to me that is what it is. loosing the antiquity of the AFM for a MAF and also have an ECU that is upgradable. sure your not going to add 40 horses with the stock injectors and your not going to gain much keeping the stock setup. you would wil gain better throttle response, maybe better gas mileage and idle characteristics. the thing of it all is that is what i want for now and it is also the promise of having something that i can UPGRADE furthen down the line when i have the money and time to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernardd Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 I used both ecu's with stock injectors and stock turbo. BIG difference in the way the z31 ecu runs the car. I tried to extract the maps off of the stock ecu and would have been successful except for stupid operater error and pow no data on chip anymore. If someone wants to donate one I'm sure I'd be successful. Anyone with a z31 ecu can start burning chips for a very small investment. http://www.batronix.com has burners and erasers. Or ebay. Pick up a socket and a few chips. Get a local tv repair shop to remove the stock rom and install socket. Then start tuning. The stock z31 maps are available on the inflame ricetech page. I can send a text file of "performance" ignition maps for both the l28et and the vg30et to anyone who wants them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yo2001 Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 MAF runs better in the midrange because it comes in lean into boost rather than rich going into boost like older AFM setup. My torque was 30ft/lb higher at 3500rpm with MAF setup. More torque in the middle, more HP. I guess you could get same kind of power I'm making now with zxt ecu but I'm sure it's safer to do it in Z31 setup. Stock Z31 ECU lucks timing if you go with stock timing because it pulls alot of timing under boost but you an overcome that by turning the dizzy. couple degree on timing gave me 20ft/lb+ with no added boost. There is more benefit than just HP with Z31 setup, you have OBD I for self diagnose, an aftermarket support, S-AFR, and better MPG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fl327 Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 So yo, did you run eccs and try the same things? Anyways, yes I will admit, I do like how you can manipulate the z31 setup to a higher degree and yes, by the arguements posted I can see that you can get a lot more out of it with the piggy backing, prom, and of course the bypass pipe, which is my favorite one. I dont think you were using turbo efi were you ???? Yo, I thought you were running L jetronic before the z31 swap----thats a huge difference without a doubt. Lean may be better for all out hp, but I cant see how you can see its safer for a preset oem ecu to lean you out on boost, especially when you turn up the boost a whole bunch, thats not clear to me. Anyways I dont mean to tell people they shouldnt do this swap or its not worthwhile, but at the same time, what I am trying to say to those who want to go for the swap because their cars dont run right to them is that the z31 setup is not the cure for a poor running car- fixing a poor running car is the solution and the only right way to proceed. I get an average of 3mpg over the factory advertised mpg, and I do it at speeds of 80-90mph every day, hows that for drivability??? I personally think drivability is good with the turbo setup when its functioning correctly, eccs I do mean, and if you cant get your car to run right stock---how can you get it to run right modified??? I drive my car in any weather, any day and any time. Im known to take the car on 500 mile trips at the drop of a hat with no tools, I dont think the drivability argument is valid. I like how my car runs with my current stuff, but yes I will admit, the car did roar just that much harder through a maf, Happy now I like the z31 setup when used to boost power through the means that Bernard and Sleeper have done, thats good stuff, I dont agree that it has any edge on the eccs turbo zxt stuff if left stock, i just dont see it, as I have ran z31 stuff before, and I have run it at the track and swapped back to the eccs between runs and saw no difference, I dont say these things because I imagine them, this is my experience with it. By itself, I dont think its an upgrade at all, with mods like Bernard and SLeeper, I cant help but say yes, its a great thing they have accomplished in their resepective garages. Im not deadset into the notion that a z31 setup isnt worth it entirely, its only if you think you can bolt it up and get it run and rule the world, it doesnt work that way. I do love the z31 with the jwt type hacking and if i see someone run a s-afc with it, I would love to see what comes of that. Yo, I dont mean that in a sarcastic way at all, please post when you set that up, I am interested in seeing one of those boxes running with z31, if the outcome is good, you just might see me come back with the z31 setup, because when things like that are done is the only time it appeals to me as a performance upgrade. Anyways people are going to do what they want regardless of what I say, I would just hope that they look at all sides of the arguement. I have reiterate that I dont believe that the z31 setup does very much if anything different when left stock, once again its from experience from my own car. I am just as adamant in my beliefs as you are yours, and Im ready to see what else the z31 setup can do. Im not going to say its not interesting what can be done with it, but stock-I dont think its worth the work and Ill stand by it. Modified chipped what have you, of course its going to make mroe power, cmon now. Going back to original post, what is up with the writeup on how to z31 your z??? My way was way too simple I Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ZmeFly Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 fl327 if your car isnt running right swapping ecus and setting it up with another system ISNT the way to fix it. my car is running pretty dam good now i would think. travleing the highway when i visit my parents in maryland i average about 28-30 mpg at 75-80mph. i think thats great and everything is working well. like i said in my last post its about getting more from what i already have so when i upgrade to a better fuel system and turbo and the like, it will all already be there. like sleeper and bernardd have done and have gone is where i hope to be heading. i think for the time nissan did an excellent job with what they had. i cant complain about my car at all, it has 180k and runs fantastic, ive of course had a few problems along the way, but any car does. she runs great and i wouldnt trade her for the world. its all about getting more options out of what you have to start with and going from there to make a better car overall in the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fl327 Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 I did the z31 stuff a year ago, and yes I will admit to it, I pulled the stuff off real quick to diagnose something really dumb, and re installed my afm system. I have swapped back and forth since then and havent noticed anything. Ive even swapped it at the track to see if it did anything, and nope, NoThing. Not a bad thing, but not enough to get me to keep the system on there----but in light of what im learning about the innards of that box, I am starting to lean the other way! Ive also set other cars up with this system and didnt make much difference on their cars either. Now that I have a good space to work on this kinda stuff, I am going to, why not right? Zme-dont take any of this personal, and I hope no one else does, Ive learned a bunch of stuff here and I would like this to stay as much away from a shouting match as possible, and yes I know---I can be a hothead at times. I take nothing here personal, I learn like this the best, dont ask me why, but I do. FYI- I dont take any of this stuff personal, and I actually get a kick out of the responses. If we were speaking face to face this would be different, since connotation and emotion are very hard to express on the internet. If it were possible to view my facial expression, youd see im laughing. Is a writeup even possible???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yo2001 Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 It's all L-jetronic technically. Anyway, I was running N/A ECU before but it wasn't like I wasn't making the power. 208WHP with N/A ECU, then 222WHP with untuned Z31 ECU. After tuning, I got 253RHP at 12psi. A/F was right around 11.8-12.0 ratio. I think it was well worth it for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbobluestreak Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 I used both ecu's with stock injectors and stock turbo. BIG difference in the way the z31 ecu runs the car. I tried to extract the maps off of the stock ecu and would have been successful except for stupid operater error and pow no data on chip anymore. If someone wants to donate one I'm sure I'd be successful. Anyone with a z31 ecu can start burning chips for a very small investment. http://www.batronix.com has burners and erasers. Or ebay. Pick up a socket and a few chips. Get a local tv repair shop to remove the stock rom and install socket. Then start tuning. The stock z31 maps are available on the inflame ricetech page. I can send a text file of "performance" ignition maps for both the l28et and the vg30et to anyone who wants them. I have an extra 85 ecu, the fuel pump won't shut off but if you want it its yours, also I would to see the text file of the performance ignition maps for the vg30et. tbs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernardd Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 Thanks TBS, I've got the maps off of the 85 already and I'll send you the maps. I'd like to try a 83. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbobluestreak Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 Thanks bernardd. tbs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavD3 Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 Can anyone explain me this: when you guys talk about E31 ECU do you talk about ECU from n/a car or turbo, or there is no difference? Thanksin advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yo2001 Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 I ran the turbo ECU from 87. It 's better for me because it pulls timing under boost. I don't think the N/A ECU will do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean73 Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 Yo2001 On your 87 ECU, how does the ECU know when to pull timing? Does it have a boost sensor? Or is it RPM triggered? My 84 turbo ECCS schematic does not have a boost sensor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernardd Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 It's programmed into the timing map. When a certain amount of airflow is reached the ecu starts to pull out timing. I can check a NA map to see if takes out timing as well. I don't think it would but I can't say for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lockjaw Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 I want to know why someone would argue the 280ZXT stuff is as good as the 300? I mean first and foremost, you get rid of the dang door on the AFM. The drivability improvement alone makes it worthwhile, but if you really look at it, don't you think sucking air thru and AFM with a door that is spring loaded is harder then sucking it thru a 70mm tube with a couple screens in it? I noticed a huge difference going to the Z31 stuff, ALA JWT, in all area's, especially boost response. More boost sooner equals more power. I am sure there are people with 280ZXT stuff who run good numbers, Scottymiz comes to mind, but no one has really pushed the envelope with the Z31 stuff, except people running JWT stuff. There is no comparison on the drivability improvement, and boost response, not to mention I don't have the dumb rpm point where the ecu switches over from 40% duty cycle on the injectors to 100, or whatever the numbers are. I also don't have the wonderful 6400 rpm rev limit either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffp Posted October 24, 2003 Share Posted October 24, 2003 First off there really is no comparison between the two systems electronically. The stock 280 hardware is an 8 bit system, so you from the getgo are going to have a resolution issue that can be masked in a number of ways, but the bottom line is that you will NOT get the response that you will get with a 16 bit digital system. That is the first issue, the system is just to old, the engineering technology just was not there in 83 as compared to 89. Second, Analog, although can be made to work well, needs to be fooled into working well and with that being said you will get limited results with such a system. it is like comparing a carb to a fuel injector for fuel flow, the injector will ALWAYS be easier over a wider range of flow parameters then any carb could ever hope to get, no question about that. The next issue is tuning, both have been tuned and designed to operate over a variety of operating temps, weather conditions to name a few. You would be extremly hard pressed to tune a 280 system that in my example that could push 400-500 hp acheive 30mpg and have the ability to adjust itself to compensate for changes in air pressure from sea level to say 5000 feet like I have been known to drive my car to and still maintain a correct fuel mixture without getting out and tweeking the system. I can and have done just that with the 300 system, why, because it was tuned well to begin with and it also has the resolution built in to accomidate those extreme changes by itself. I am an electronice guy and to tell me that it can be done is like comparing a 8mm film to a DVD and say the clarity and picture is the same, aint going to happen guys. The downside to the 300 part is that Nissan did not make any provision for the owner to modify or improve on what Nissan did without hacking into the code, changing components and hardware without doing what Bernard has done and JWT has done. On the flip side, the 280 system is similar to the 300 in that it was never intended to do any more then what the design engineer made it to do, and to get any more from it requires a hardware change and alot of messing with trial and error to obtain nominal results, no disrespect intended to anyone who has made significant mods to the unit with positive results. The electronics, now there is your best bet for modifications undisputed. when you consider the time investment between the two, my time is much better spent working on the digital unit over the analog unit any day no question about that. While there is vilidity in the statement that there was little change between the two systems in stock application, you need to keep in mind that BOTH were designed, tuned to acheive very close to the same results to the end user and that is why they act and react the same in many applications. if you want to do 600 hp then go with the modified 300 box, if you are happy with 260 or so hp then tinker with the 280 system and get those results, but dont expect much more then that from the 280 system. just my O2 here guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yo2001 Posted October 24, 2003 Share Posted October 24, 2003 I'm pretty sure the MAF setup until 88 is 8 bit system. But digital indeed. That's why JWT requires 88-89 ECU I think Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavD3 Posted October 25, 2003 Share Posted October 25, 2003 OK, now when we have so many experineced people on this board can anyone do a writeup for other non experienced people? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernardd Posted October 25, 2003 Share Posted October 25, 2003 I've discovered where the "switch" is for the minimum voltage for the maf. Now I just gotta get some resisters. I will then have a fuel map that starts with .8 volts or so at idle and goes to 5vdc. Next step is changing the max voltage to 5.6?. Another Nissan guy is making some maptrace equipment which I should have in my hands in the next month or two. Tuning should be a lot easier soon. Bernard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yo2001 Posted October 25, 2003 Share Posted October 25, 2003 You ECU hacker I seen one of those maptrace thingy for Hondata. It's nice sepcially if you can date log everything Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.