Guest Anonymous Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 Had a friend go to VIR a few weeks ago. Met his instructor a day early at the track. Friend asked the instructor to drive friends car (95 M-3 with a boat load of cash in the motor) a few laps with friend in passengers seat to see the line. Instructor decides to show what a good driver he is and goes balls out around the track. On the longest straight on the track, nothing to do but shift, instructor shifts into second instead of fourth. Lets out clutch, 8 bent valves. Should instructor be responsible for any damages? Thanks for you input. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim240z Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 Did he (your buddy) sign a waiver? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 No waiver signed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim240z Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 I'm no lawyer, but I think that negligence, or intent needs to be proven, but I think there are some legal savvy guys on the board, maybe they will chime in. Maybe change the subject header to more accurately reflect your question, and to draw in the appropriate audience? Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 Forgot to mention, my friend is a lawyer. Seems to me if you break it you should offer to at least help to fix it. Would that not be the right thing to to reguardless of waivers ot legal wrangling? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sumo Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 Confucius say" He who break it, pay for it" Also "Buffets are cheaper on Monday thru Thursday only" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z-REX Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 i'm no lawyer, but doesn't lack of care when in control of something that is not yours constitute negligence? i mean we have all missed a shift... i never blew the crap out of a head doing it but it obviously happens. is he responsible for damages? in my opinion yes, i know that won't hold up in court but he was placed into a position of great trust and he betrayed that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonzer12 Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 Don't quote me on this or anything but I believe legeally if you let your (street) car on the race track you are SOL as you have no reasonable expectation of safety on a race course, it certainly voids your insurance anyhow... I watched some kid take his dad's BRAND new explorer in the spectator class at a little local oval track, rolled it and nothing was covered, I mention this just cause I laugh when I think about it not just cause its funny. I can picture his sorry ass going home and trying to explain that one... he made the damn newspaper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ZmeFly Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 Its nice to handle, Its nice to hold, But if its broke, Concider it sold! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randy 77zt Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 i have instructed at driver schools before.driving a students car is not normal procedure at the schools i have helped out on.the student rides in instructor's car to learn the line.usually 2 waivers are signed.in court i doubt the m3 owner would get any sympathy.it was his risk to call.if i was to drive somebody else's car i wouldnt be speed shifting it.i like to be smooth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synlubes Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 Friend asked the instructor to drive friends car (95 M-3 with a boat load of cash in the motor) a few laps with friend in passengers seat to see the line. Instructor decides to show what a good driver he is and goes balls out around the track. On the longest straight on the track' date=' nothing to do but shift, instructor shifts into second instead of fourth. Lets out clutch, 8 bent valves. Should instructor be responsible for any damages? Thanks for you input. Mark[/quote'] Well the first part is kinda if - e. "friend asked the instrutor to drive" With a CarGuy`s event "A High Performance Driving School", I have knowledge of folks driving their own car, crashing and the insurance covered them. Following with a, WE WONT COVER THIS AGAIN STATEMENT ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ZMFDM Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 Its nice to handle' date=' Its nice to hold, But if its broke, Concider it sold![/quote'] haha fair enough Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest smoov280zx Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 I dont know jack about the law in this matter, especially since a waiver wasnt signed. But being certified and in a position to call himself an instructor carries a certain degree of assumed skill. Everybody makes mistakes, but he gets paid to get it right. If he was driving in a more wreckless fashon, i assume so by "balls out", it sounds like he got his chance to drive a suped up car that maybe was new to him and didnt pay enough attention to the 10,000 dollar gearbox. Maybe BMW's have flick of the wrist shifting, but it's pretty hard to get my car to go from the top of third into the middle of second going around 100(i guess thats 3rd in an m3). Sounds to me like he got a taste of a really fast car and ignored his common sense, and his duty to your friend as an instructor to show the proper way to navigate the course. He gets paid for what he was doing and people depend on him to get it right. If being an instructor holds no responsiblilty, hell, sign me up for the Enzo Ferrari driving school, I'll show those damn kids how to drive. I gotta learn to break up my paragraphs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 The guy that used to run the DSM email list and runs DSM.org did that exact same thing to a buddy's M3 on a track. That's twice I've heard of someone downshifting one of these cars and overspinning the engine. The DSM guy paid for the engine work to get the car back together. He was lucky enough to have a bunch of people on the DSM list that pitched in to help him pay for it. But I bet your friend is SOL. This seems to be one of those things that makes modern day America an embarrassment - that few people take responsibility for their actions and that lawyers are brought in to try to correct things that common decency should be taking care of. I'd hope the driver's school organization at least has a policy for what to do in this instance, and if not, would pressure the instructor to come clean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 As an instructor at a number of driving schools I can give you my OPINION about what should be done, but that's not worth much. Eventually it will come down to a negotiation between the car owner and the instructor. FWIW: The instructor broke the car through his error in operation. He should pay to fix the car. The 4th to 2nd downshift blow up is a common and known thing in the E36 chassis M3s and I know of four cars that have had this exact thing happen. There's no track that I've driven and no reason that I know of that requires a fast 4th to 5th shift. That being said, the car owner should also pay for part of the damage because its part of the risk the risk he accepted when venturing on the track and asking the instructor to drive the car. The car owner also should realize that the instructor can probably just walk away and leave the owner with ALL of the costs. Even if it goes to small claims court the chances of getting a sympathic judge will probably be small, "You asked him to drive your car on a racetrack and it broke? You were aware of the risks involved correct? How is the instructor responsible?" My recommendation: talk with the instructor in a calm and polite manner and work out something with him. Yelling, screaming, and threatening lawsuits only hurt the discussion. Think lawsuit only after you've exhausted all options. And... if the instructor has no money, you can't really squeeze blood out of a turnip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 Everybody makes mistakes, but he gets paid to get it right. If he was driving in a more wreckless fashon, i assume so by "balls out", it sounds like he got his chance to drive a suped up car that maybe was new to him and didnt pay enough attention to the 10,000 dollar gearbox. Not many driving instructors get paid at these kind of open track schools. Most do it for track and seat time. Also, one person's "balls out" is another person's "easy lap." I've scared the crap out of students when I was driving an "easy lap" in their car. That was a mistake on my part by not realizing where my student's threshold was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 I took my brother-in-law to a driving school with my Z. He was coming into turn 1 at Buttonwillow and the instructor told him "Go for 2nd". He had been downshifting to 3rd. He said "REALLY?" and the instructor said "Go for 2nd!!!" so he did, and promptly hit about 10K rpm and spun off the track. My bro-in-law figured the instructor knew what he was doing, and took his "expert" advice. No harm done to the engine, but if it was damaged I would have been the one paying whatever part of the bill my insurance wouldn't cover. I know that, and I knew it when they got in my car and took off. A trip to the racetrack is a dangerous thing, and the person who submits their car and themselves to that has no one to blame IMO. I don't even think I would file an insurance claim. It's not fair to people who have to pay higher premiums because we want to go fast on a track. Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
majik16106 Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 I have NEVER and will NEVER let an instructor drive my car. For the most part, the ones i have met aren't really experts at anything at all. they just drive decently and spend a lot of time at the track cuz they get paid too, thats like saying im a qualified instructor on the mountain backroads near my house because i drive them all the time real fast in my car and i can give advice on the fastest way through them because i have done it so many time... so um.. how many of you wanna come down here and let me drive your car through the mountain to show you?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 Thanks for the input guys. I'm hopeing the instructor will step up and at least help to pay for the damages. My friend who is a lawyer has already said he will not sue over this. He has the money to fix the car (it is a track car only) so it is really a matter of principal, if there is still such a thing. By the way, the instructor drives the same kind of car and has done the samething to his car. Thanks, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 I have NEVER and will NEVER let an instructor drive my car. For the most part, the ones i have met aren't really experts at anything at all. How do you feel about that John??? I've got 3 friends who are driving instructors at autox schools. I think that MOST instructors that have been in my car were excellent drivers, and they have the type of experience that the typical person going to the driving school doesn't. They don't just know the line, they know why the line is where it is. A good one will be able to explain that to a student. I haven't been to a driving school yet where I didn't learn anything from an instructor. Letting one drive my car is a different story. They are not familiar with your vehicle usually, so they would be more likely to make a mistake like the one that occurred. I wouldn't hesitate for a second to have a Z car racer like John Coffey drive my car around a track with me in the passenger seat. I'm sure that would be an enlightening experience!!! Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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