Some info on the Aluminum 5 lug Hubs and their Brake setup.

[kj280z]

Juan...

 

I must admit... your cavilier attitude in your last post is what is bringing all these questions on you!

 

It's obvious from that last post that you don't have an idea about what can happen to you or your company if something fails and they find that you had not done the appropriate research into the design.

 

Furthermore if they find that you had not done the necessay R&D to have your parts tested and if a flaw is discovered that caused injury, not only would you be liable, you could lose everything.

 

Please think about all of this VERY carefully. We are all trying to help you by our posts here ...not hurt you! We appreciate your efforts but are also concerned about the possible ramifications of you not doing your homework.

 

Speak to a business lawyer and get his/her advice if you want a dose of reality. Hopefully someone in that profession will open your eyes...

 

Throttle body spacers are one thing... hubs and brakes are a whole different ball game...

 

Talk to some professionals (not a free consultation either)... Pay for their time and make sure they are practicing law in the automotive industry... particularly in the aftermarket...

 

I imagine after doing so, your next post will be humble and thankful that we are all looking out for you and everyone else that are your "would be" customers...

[Guest Looking for apt in Alb Ny]

Your right is not worth it. The project is in the garbage and so is JSK fuel rails and brakes.

Ill make some emblems and valve covers.

 

Its not worth having anybody get hurt no matter how much a part is tested or insured. Its best to simply make it an end.

 

I do have some current projects I'm finishing up but its said and taken care of.

 

Juan

 

I'm back. I haven't been able to present the hubs and their brake setup. I truly believe if there are any problems they should be addressed when the product is finished and presented for criticism. I may still be in the game but please email me JSK@ JSKinnovations.com if you feel there is still a go at this. Honestly its right on my finger tips and not far away. You can make it happened!

Other than that I am evaluating alot and things will be changing.

 

 

Which would you rather run? these or hubs that would be as oem plus with an added beefy wheel mounting surface of 35mm. There is a big difference in the items. I am not stating that I wouldn't use these but just a simple comparison from 1 piece hub and 2 piece hub and adapters.

[Guest Looking for apt in Alb Ny]

Yea I feel like that one minute having trust in my work then another just dumping it down into the sewer. Sure feels like I have been living in a sewer with how much money goes into this.

 

Some good points are brought up on this board. I am seeking the best machines I can find for the money to help build these parts. Alot of people wont even bother to help create something for only a small amount of individuals. It is very obvious that people on this board know I can make it happen . I feel like my head is going one direction then another. But what about the middle? This is where the item comes in. Bounce the product around and not me. If answering the credential question by stating that all aspects of the OEM hub will be duplicated and further strengthen is not enough then I cant say I can do more than that. Do you want them out of steel I can do that as well. Then the only thing left to worry about is a person not properly tightening his bearings down and dropping in the bolt pin. I just don't see the hub going anywhere or tearing apart if made properly and details to strength is paid close attention to. The Z hub is a perfect candidate for duplication into aluminum. The Z hub lets us offer additional reinforcement such as the 35mm offset needed to get the popular 5 lug offset aligned. These aspects should also be talked about. Would I venture into making hubs lets say for Hondas or 240sx. Heck no! They are much saller in design than the Z. The Z hub is a monster as well as the suspension and drivetrain for a 30 year old car. I know my limits with the experience I have. I count on many people on this board to guide me. You are the voice. Im fueled and ready to come back with more expectations that I have previously had. You will be informed on the continuing development . Thank you

Juan

[Synlubes]

Juan,

There is some very good advise being given on this subject.

Listen and learn!

Then do what you think you should do.

I would suggest that you make a / some proto types and then have them professionlly tested. (destructive testing in a professional setting)

In todays "sue you" world, you can not be careful enough.

Never give up and don`t let um beat you down!

 

Just my thoughts

[Guest Looking for apt in Alb Ny]

Forget the 25% down I will fund everything myself. Prototypes made as well and looking for someone to put a set on. Just one look at them it they would be sold on the part I am convinced that much. Prototypes are going to be expensive because once the machines are setup the time is ticking meaning I cant just machine 2 sets and offer the low price I have.

Can someone here please explain why the match and fuel pressure test has hurt me? I was going to show the pressure at 60 psi but I felt that wasn't good enough. IM thinking of hanging some 90 weights to it even throwing the rail in the air under pressure. How many people and companies do you see hanging themselves by helmets with super glue to some metal object or going to extremes to show a part. I had a wonderful time spending 3 nights setting up the rails to show their results.

I am really exhausted and need to rest for a bit. Thanks

[datsunlover]

Ok, i just visited the JSK site.. and I don't see too much to be negative about.. there is one thing though..about the fuel rail (according to the site) *quote* "Injector O ring bores have been precision machined to .433" which is the most critical feature to allow the best sealing possible as well as aligning injectors with manifold ports for reduced stress" *unquote*

In the pic, it is being measured with the top jaws of a digital caliper... IMO (as a 1st year machinist aprentice) that is NOT the way to measure a presision toleranced bore.. that 'very-near' could be out 2 or more thousansths (either way). And who knows if the person in that pic is holding the calipers even/square in the bore to begin with? Sort of like the pic of him measuring the end of the fuel injector the wrong way..he could have been out by a lot who knows?!?

Im not saying the fuel rail doesnt work, but maybe it's not the best picture to prove the 'precision machining' you can do... And I have to agree a little bit with some of the others on the "I don't want to die because a part fails while driving 100MPH" thing.. Not to say I would never buy JSK parts, but there has to be solid proof that testing was done and parts will hold up in the real world. And proper measuring techniques in the pictures would ease a few concerns in my mind as well...

 

[edit] It would apear you were typing at the same time I was.. and your latest post brings up another point I have: going to extremes to advertise a product (such as.. super glue perhaps?) is ok for advertising something that is already on the market and has a good track record already.. as for me, when something new (or a new company in this case) comes out and make grand claims and crazy 'test's of their products it makes me think 'hmm.. I dont think so..' or 'what are they trying to prove by this?'.

[Guest Looking for apt in Alb Ny]

I have stated many times the bores are exactly the same dimension as the oem eclipse same exact bore size!!!!!!! it may not be the way to measure and I know that it is just for quick reference. If you want pictures of exact size I guess I can take it to the shop and show you the cylinders used for measuring. We did not use caliper dials . Man This shop I do work with has been producing parts for over 20 years. And on top of that they have been working for others in the machine business for 10-15 years before creating their own business ( my machinists) The funny thing is its not me but professionals who are making the parts. I'm the idiot not the parts. I just may take the who thing off since its not doing any good.. we have extensive tools to meet tolerances at my job.

 

I will go through another series of O ring rail testing. I also want to state that I have 2 different O ring sizes when I conducted that fire pressure test. You didn't know that until now right. It did not leak. Yes 2 different thickness and diameter sizes. 3 of some unknown and 3 oem eclipse o ring's.

What I do need to conduct is shock and I will display that.

Thanks

 

 

Edit

Im ready to tear my hair out. sometimes

!!!

 

Another edit

 

There just is no ending to this. Now I have to be worried that someone installed different size O ring injectors because they read this post.

[ToplessZ]

Alright breathe everyone. I have to say juan keep the faith. Secondly I think you should arrange a sort of waiver for the products so they are sold as "use at your own risk." I would seriously talk to mikelly off the board on this subject and maybe pick his brain for some business practices ideas and experiences that he could share with you. Not saying to not test them but to cover yourself and to help keep cost down. I think that your Testing on other products has been creative. Why dont we see if any pro racers would have any ideas on how to test your parts. If juan were to spend a couple of thosand dollars on r&d then making the few custom orders requested would never be worth it. I see several options here. One stick with stock. Two go with a jerry rigged non fitting 300zx hub or use the adapters and spacers which seems to me the worst of the 3 options and then finally just use four lug and get some custom wheels made and for Gods sake hope those done desinigrate while driving down the highway.

[Afshin]

I don’t know what’s going on here, I have been trying to stay out of this because it annoys me too much. But what the hell is it with certain members and there inappropriate attitude with Juan? For example, someone’s who is not an a$$ might not have in another post (i.e., Tyson) asked if Juan would have his corny name inscribed all over his products. Who are you to show so much disrespect to an enthusiast and hard working contributing member of HybridZ ? I happen to like the fact that he takes pride in his work and places his nicely engraved logo on a product. You don’t like it, don’t buy it.

Tyson and some others keep using this inappropriate tone and aggression towards Juan. As previously stated you want OEM, stick with the old leak prone injector hoses, rear drum brakes, and inadequate front brakes. You want it tested and insured as an OEM part, then go buy OEM, because it will cost even more to make it in low volume. You want extensively researched safety go buy a Volvo and never drive a 30 year old Z. Now off course this does not mean that you should put garbage on the car, I certainly don’t, but for crying out loud “get a grip†before you start lecturing or attacking a low volume custom made product geared at people who extensively modify cars. What part of a HybridZ relates to extensive development by a team of engineers to be tested by racing teams for 5 years before being used. We swap engines, tranny, fuel sytems…with no testing. It was said I want to make sure it will not fail at 500hp, could you please educate me as to what part in the entire Z has been tested for such an application.

Please, if you have a valid concern or point you would like to share bring it up “nicely†and show some respect as opposed to blind statements such as it did not have 1000 hours of R&D behind it. Datsunlover criticized a measurement in a picture; more appropriate would be to just ask if the measurement for the O-ring is accurate and how was it measured during the actual production. The point here is that some people instead of giving the benefit of doubt and asking a question in a nice way are being aggressive and insinuating that the product is not good. This is inappropriate; you have an honest question ask it. You have something useful to say based on your expertise please share it. You have a valid safety concern and you actually know what you are talking about, please bring it up. You have good advice to give, please give it with respect.

So far Juan has not shown any disrespect to anyone, including those who deserve it. Juan has repeatedly asked members for advice and has not started any product without posting about it first to make sure it is reasonable and getting opinions. Furthermore he clearly has taken peoples opinions and comments into account when designing the products to ensure a good product. Please reciprocate or keep your opinion/comment to yourself. So far, all of the JSK parts (TB spacer, brake kit and fuel rail) have been quite good and IMO better than the OEM set up. Perhaps Juan’s biggest shortcomings relates to him being more of a craftsman than salesman and that he is honest in his communications and does not pretend to know more than he does as so many others do. He has not failed at taking good advice from anyone. Again, please make your posts helpful as oppose to accusatory.

[Guest ON3GO]

Afshin all i want to say is THANK YOU.

you are sooooooooo correct!

thank you..

 

mike

[ToplessZ]

Please, if you have a valid concern or point you would like to share bring it up “nicely†and show some respect as opposed to blind statements such as it did not have 1000 hours of R&D behind it. Datsunlover criticized a measurement in a picture; more appropriate would be to just ask if the measurement for the O-ring is accurate and how was it measured during the actual production. The point here is that some people instead of giving the benefit of doubt and asking a question in a nice way are being aggressive and insinuating that the product is not good. This is inappropriate; you have an honest question ask it. You have something useful to say based on your expertise please share it. You have a valid safety concern and you actually know what you are talking about, please bring it up. You have good advice to give, please give it with respect.

This is exactly what im saying. I just want to hear some ideas and opinions not slams on credibility or engineering certifications. This is not getting us anywhere and is getting way to flustered to match the attitude of this board. Where are those brilliant minds I love to see picked. I like the Logo's to by the way. Looks better than a plain peice of barstock to me. Just my .02 I suggest any more posts actually be based on something technical. Not questioning abilities or quality at this point. What facts can we actually talk about. Anyone know of any failures of the stock hubs to this date. Does anyone agree with me that if something was to fail it would be a rusty hub that has stress cracked on a casting line. Notice on the stock Z hub that there are recesses in the casting all the way around. Now I think that a simplified smooth casted or machined hub would produce less oppertunity for stress cracks by evenly distributing the load as opposed to a stock hub which as far as I know has also always done fine.

[Guest Looking for apt in Alb Ny]

Alright. I definitely can make some prototypes out of aluminum from 2026 or either steel. This would cost me alot of money . It will probably throw the project on hold indefinably when I get some pricing. I would be happy to have them checked out by the pros. This is what I have been trying to say about halfway through this.

 

Everyone is correct on this topic. I just want you to know that I do have the machinery available. That's my strong point for the most part.

I appreciate everyone's time for making post over their weekend.

Thanks Juan

[240jz]

Juan,

I would like to point out some things you may or may not have considered in designing the hubs. I speak only from experience as an Mechanical Engineering Student and haveing helped to design aluminum hubs for our Formula SAE race car. First, have you thought about thermal expansion? I'm not too shure how hot the hubs get on my Z but on the Formula car we did extensive testing on them to verify that the greater thermal expansion of the aluminum hubs would not allow the bearings to spin, or cause undue stress on our steel rotors. Also I would be concerned about some popular aluminiums strength vs. temperature. 7075 strength rapidly falls off over 200 F where as 2026 has much greater strenght in this heat range. Also of some concern would be the fatigue strength of these parts for not only do they see reversing cyclical loadings but aluminium's strength does not stop falling off. I am not trying to keep you from using aluminium but just pointing out some areas of concen and design attention. I would be happy to do some Finite Element Anyasis of your design if that is something you are intrested in. I do not know if you have acess to thoes tools or not but I would be glad to help you if you don't.

Thanks and keep up the good work.

Matt S

[ToplessZ]

Sorry to keep posting here but 240jz that is the perfect example of the posts we should have been seeing throughout this discussion. Keep it coming guys more help like that would be great.

[kj280z]

Jared...

 

That's the whole point that we're trying to make to Juan...

 

In order to protect himself and others HE needs to have spent the money and R&D costs to insure that not only the correct materials are selected but that tolerances and many other aspects of the design are tested satisfactorily.

 

He should already know all that stuff and be TELLING US what rigoruos testing is planned or in progress for the part in question.

 

Don't get me wrong... his parts "look" good and appear that they are machined to high standards but there is MUCH more to the design process than that!

 

I am not an engineer by trade but have been involved in building custom parts before... Simply stated... The R&D cost and testing process usually costs many times more than actually making the part. Which drives up the final cost of the part but ultimately keeps everyone safe and protects the manufacturer from law suits.

 

Expansion, heat tolerance, shear strength, warp tolerance and much more need to be tested.

 

It's all part of the ball game of making custom parts and protecting yourself... Some parts carry less risk than others (obviously) and the associated insurance reflects that.

 

When you approach an insurance company and tell them that you are manufacturing and selling wheel hubs or brake components, expect to open up your wallet...

 

With all that said... If you could provide the insurance company with the test results and endorsements, it would favorably help you with premiums... Again, it's all part of the ball game...

 

Hope that helps...

 

And let me say this... I am in no way trying to discourage Juan from making his parts. I'm only trying to point out the risks and requirements for doing so. I am a little concerned that he needs to get a little more educated in this regard and I'm trying to help him understand the whole thing...

 

Bottom line?

 

In the end he'll get the part done, but it will be more expensive because he had to spend extra bucks on these things, but we'll all be safer in the process and I'd bet that he'll learn some valuable lessons about his initial design that he'll be able to improve before his production run.

[tyson]

Juan' date='

I would like to point out some things you may or may not have considered in designing the hubs. I speak only from experience as an Mechanical Engineering Student and haveing helped to design aluminum hubs for our Formula SAE race car. First, have you thought about thermal expansion? I'm not too shure how hot the hubs get on my Z but on the Formula car we did extensive testing on them to verify that the greater thermal expansion of the aluminum hubs would not allow the bearings to spin, or cause undue stress on our steel rotors. Also I would be concerned about some popular aluminiums strength vs. temperature. 7075 strength rapidly falls off over 200 F where as 2026 has much greater strenght in this heat range. Also of some concern would be the fatigue strength of these parts for not only do they see reversing cyclical loadings but aluminium's strength does not stop falling off. I am not trying to keep you from using aluminium but just pointing out some areas of concen and design attention. I would be happy to do some Finite Element Anyasis of your design if that is something you are intrested in. I do not know if you have acess to thoes tools or not but I would be glad to help you if you don't.

Thanks and keep up the good work.

Matt S[/quote']

 

This is the post I have been waiting for....Someone who KNOWS about R&D when it comes to product manufacturing.

 

Juan, I think the videos hurt you because they seemed pretty on the fly, and also using cheap band clamps at 150psi with a fuel loaded line. The whole "Whoop whooop whooop" thing was pretty corny.

 

I think some actual tests for a fuel rail wouldnt just be temporary pressure rise to 150psi, briefly touching a torch to the injectors, and banging on it or hanging weights from it....None of these things happen under the hood of the car.

 

When we run natural gas lines at work, the city requires us to pressurise the line with air, and leave it pressurised at 25psi for a minimum of 24 hours. If someone's rail is going to start leaking, I highly doubt its going to be in 60 seconds of operation.

 

Anything under the hood of a car is going to be subject to a few things.

#1. Temperature...Both extreme heat and extreme cold (I start my Z up in the winter every now and then, and it gets to -20 on a regular basis in Minnesota) Will the rail leak at extreme high and low temperatures?

 

#2. Vibration....A few shock tests will not simulate the kind of vibrations that occur under the hood of a car

 

#3. Fuel pressure, expect that these rails will be run at high pressures, for long amounts of time.

 

A more accurate test of "Here's the quality in my fuel rails" would be placing a pressurised rail into some sort of oven (I dont suggest pressurising with fuel for it may burn your house down), with some kind of vibration. Leave a guage on it and leave it alone for a week and then check the pressure.

 

Repeat the process, except in a deep freeze, not an oven.

 

 

The reason I am critical of Juan, is it appears he does not know his shit when it comes to making some parts. In the thread I have linked below, Juan is critical of Pallnet's lexan spacers, and pretty much says that lexan is not suited to hold up to extreme pressure and heat, when in reality it is commonly used for such purposes. When we approached Juan in the thread with solid proof of the properties of lexan, he just replied with "here are some of the spacers I make available.

Thanks and enjoy your day"

 

http://www.zcar.com/forums/read.php?f=1&i=405527&t=405410#reply_405527

 

Now, for the record yes I am friends with Pallnet and I also run one of his fuel rails. However I do not profit from anything Pallnet sells, and I paid full price on my fuel rail from him (No leaks at 60psi and many trips down the dragstrip). I am not one of his "goons" that will follow him around and defend his company for no reason. I simply believe that pallnet really knows his stuff, and as a longtime automotive tech for Jaguar, he probably knows the reason behind more automotive parts failing than any of us can imagine. On a daily basis he deals with customers doing stupid things to their cars, and the designers at Jaguar making poor decisions when it comes to manufacturing the parts.

 

I am a strong believer in credentials, and testing of parts. Like I said....Would you let me make the seatbelts in your car with just a little bit of testing done to it?

 

I am not trying to discourage anyone from running their business and making parts....Quite simply the Z community needs more people stepping up and making them, but the Z community also consists of daily drivers, drag cars, and track cars, and every single one of the owners deserves a quality part that they can trust their life to.

[datsunlover]

Ok; Afshin wrote "Datsunlover criticized a measurement in a picture; more appropriate would be to just ask if the measurement for the O-ring is accurate and how was it measured during the actual production. The point here is that some people instead of giving the benefit of doubt and asking a question in a nice way are being aggressive and insinuating that the product is not good."

 

I was not trying to be nasty and overly critical, I was trying to give him some constructive critisism. IMO if you are going to put a "proof" picture on your site, you shoud try to make sure it is shown/measured properly so there is no room for error and question about it. Just saying "we have the tools TO measure properly" does not mean it WAS measured properly. A few weeks ago I gave my boss a finished part and said 'It's right on tolerance' but it wasn't; because I didn't use the micrometer properly. The part was to be +0.0000 -0.0005 It was under .0009. Part was scrap because I measured wrong. The tools in my boss's shop are top notch as well, but it doesnt mean a thing if they are not used properly. That is all I was trying to say. I was not trying to 'slam' him or his company.

[Guest Looking for apt in Alb Ny]

Its alright fellas. I really appreciate the time and effort. I am sure I can come out with something that will help us all in other areas. With extra money and no girlfriend(at the moment) I can think of something. Thanks

Juan

 

If anyone wanted an item machined without the JSK on there it is fine. its as simple as emailing me about their purchase and asking to leave the part out from the process. This would have to be asked for on upcoming items. Its a signature like any artist would have on their piece.

 

You have the right to stop me from producing items such as fuel rails and the wilwood setup that I have been providing. it is my duty to listen and learn and I will be changing the line up of products and probably be putting an end to a few. This perhaps may be a good thing to those concerned but a dismay to those who have my actual products and see that I have met through with everything they expected. Check my eBay auctions out as I am ready to blow out left over products and move on to other products.

NO I don't machine this but I am very close to the work in progress with many trips to the shop and alot of dinero out of my own pockets. I plan on kicking up my budget up to about 10 k for 2004. Thanks

Juan

[ToplessZ]

Well Im glad to hear all of pallnets parts were tested in a freezer and oven attached to vibrators and gauges. So tyson you tested his fuel rail by running it down the dragstrip and you say it held up fine. Im glad you tested before then so you knew you wouldnt be blown up on the way down the strip. Personally I dont give a flip about a fuel rail or a tb spacer. I think you guys expect too much. I also believe I was misunderstood. I think the products should be tested but not to the point of spending alot of money and doubling the cost of the part. I personally would agree to a waiver of some sort to release jsk of all liability after purchasing a product. You would be surprised how many aftermarked companies actually have a setup like this. The thermal expansion on these parts is probably going to be alot less then is being insinuated. The brakes are going to heat up and on a road coarse autox or similar even are going to heat up way more than street use. However only some of that heat will transfer to the hub and only in extreme use will it cause enough change to place stress on the bearings if any. We are not running the indy 500 in our cars and if you are I think you should be buying parts elsewhere.

[pallnet]

I believe Juan has the tools and the know how to make the parts with an EXACT fit. The stress and HEAT these parts will have to take is where the problems lie. A lot of ppl do not put their car on only the track. We drive them on the street. You do NOT want a critical failure on the street. Track has less thinks to hit or I should say less ppl to hit. I have heard lots of things about Juans products. Some bad and some good. Samething about mine. You can't please everyone, it will not happen.

 

Juan just make a safe part. Do the R&D even if you have to send it out to a company that specializes in it. This is a serious issue. Make sure they take video and have a data log of all the test's they run.. Good luck.