Attention ON3GO and z-REX & point-counter point

[pparaska]

Richard and Terry have excellent points. And I believe Terry hit it right on the head when he said that the purists argue from an emotional point of view, and no "convincing" would be done by a debate. Nor should a purists be debated with...they are arguing from an emotional and irrational point of view.

 

But then, I gave up long ago on trying to convince a purist that it's o.k. for me (or others) to modify a Z so far (e.g., by putting a V8 in it) - I just point out to them (sometimes forcefully) that it's not their right to tell me or others what we should or should not do to our Z's. Just like I don't like others cramming their religious beliefs down my throat, I don't want others to cram their Z car "beliefs" down my throat, or others. And I don't preach to them either.

 

The issue is silly, in a way - I could care less if a purist doesn't approve of what I or others do to our Z cars. They hold the "ideal" of a Z car up to a spiritual, almost religious level, which I think is ridiculous. I have no use for those people or thoughts in my life. To me, they are spending too much of their brain power worryng about something that is just unimportant to most everyone else - how OTHERS should view the Z car, in their mind. They can't make me think like they do, so they should not even try.

 

There are MANY restored-to-stock Zs out there, and quite a few all-original and Concours-level restored Zs. There are plenty of near-stock driven Zs around to. You may not see them often, but they are out there, and not that rare. If you can easily find Concours and near-Concours level Zs in museums and collections (which you can), I don't see modifying a not-reasonable-for-concours-restoration example of a Z.

 

Then again, I'm not sure exactly what Art is after for this article.

( Art, I PM'd you back with my phone numbers. )

[Tim240z]

To a certain extent, I would have thought that the 'purists' would encourage folks to hybridize/bastardize their Z cars......wouldn't that make their original/concours Z cars all that much more valuable?

 

Just a thought.....

 

Tim

[pparaska]

Tim - I rack that issue up to one word - IRRATIONAL.

[Vintage-TechZ]

I do agree with TIM 240 on the Idea the fewer Stock vintage cars are around,the more there value increases with time.

But I think the Z sport article is simply intended for all of us to witness the "who's got the better machine " in the end .Something we're all not ever going to see the point,because the Z has remained an awesome base to refine,restore and enjoy,no matter how we build them, Period !

I don't own a V-8 Z,but my older brother has done several "Badass" V-8 Z's and we've always loved racing the crap out of each other.Strangly enough he loves the sound of my turbo and I his American growl But neither one ,will permantly swap our power plant choices.No matter how much we keep upping the power it's still a tie in the speed race !And we love it that way.

I hope Sport Z writes the article in such a way that it simply exposes the many reasons we've all been drawn to the Z as our choice of enthusiasum,motivation and self expression and as well the canvass to show our skills whether it be autocrossing-restoring-fabrication-detail-and just plain old effort !

..............Vince

[Sparky]

Vince?

 

you dont happen to have a bright green Z do you?

 

you also didnt happen to be at the San Antonio ZCCA show did you?

 

you dont happen to make cool bits for Zcars do you?

[Vintage-TechZ]

Yeah Sparky, thats me.

How ha doin'?You've got a good memory ! E-mail me after your comments on this thread . I'd definatly see good reading in this article don't you ?

...........Vince

[dot]

the purist's against the pillagers

This is not a debate that can be won. The purists are a are single minded in their purpose. The car has to be original no matter how many panels and parts they have to replace. I have had two low number production cars that were “almost†worthy from a purists stand point. In order to get these cars to a point that they would be accepted, it would have rendered them not drivable. They would have become trailer queens. I pass. I turned my back on these people long ago mostly for their lack of comradely.

The Z is a car that lends itself wonderfully to customization, handling and power upgrades. This is the modern equivalent of the ’49 Merc or 32/34 Ford. The proof is in the fact that there are companies based on the sale of parts aimed at the those who wish to modify their Zs.

 

The bottom line is a hybrid Z car can stop double the number of show goers on a cruise night than a purist car. And the little bugger is faster too! So why argue with some one who doesn’t share our point of view?

[DavyZ]

Pete made an excellent point point of "bastardizing" a Z car---there is NO way to define this, period. If putting ANYTHING non OEM stock parts on a Z car is "bastardizing" the Z, then they are guilty of it too to some extent, especially since they no longer use the same brand of bias-ply tires, steel wheels, etc. By definition, ANY modification makes them as suspect.

 

That's why I love Pete's credo for the site, that this place was not a site to debate "how far" the Z car should, could, or would be modified, but that it was a place for the free exchange of information to modify the Z car period.

 

Die, purists

 

Davy

[speeder]

The way I see it, early Z cars in stock trim weren't much to begin with. Their potential as a platform for modifications is why we're all here.

 

I will never understand the purist mentality.

[SportZ2]

The answer to this question/debate is not about Hybrids vs Purists.

 

The reason being, that there are a lot of Z owners who have no problem putting a L6T or a V6TT in a 240 or 280 and would never think of putting a V8 in it for the same reasons a purist would not.

 

With that in mind, here are some ideas to think about when answering the question:

 

1) How does it bastardize the car if all V8 conversions could be done as to not effect the outside appearence of the car. (Body kits will do that more than a V8 conversion). To change the look of the car has nothing to do with the conversion and everything to do with the owner.

JTR doesn't suggest anywhere in their manual that you must put a widebody kit or a hood scoop on the car to make the V8 fuctional.

 

2) This is more about American made vs Japanese made. Most non Z people are amazed when they see a V8 in a Z and think its pretty cool that it can be done. But have that same person see a Japanese engine in a muscle car and I doubt you will get the same response.

 

3) Nissan built the early Z to be able to handle a lot more more power then the L24 was going to produce as a street car and from an american point of view putting the V8 in seems to be a natural fit.The V8 conversion was being done before Nissan started putting turbos in Z's, so what better way to maximize performance with a engine that was so universally excepted.

 

4) Price plays a part in it as well. But even here you will have different opinions from V8 owners. One thing that is a fact, is that you can build a 350 to produce 300+hp for a lot cheaper than it would cost to get that same hp out of a L6. This is for a basic carbed 350 which most people would be satisfied with.

 

The key here is "american made", is it a better choice or an easy out.

 

I look at it this way, I see lots of guys on forums asking what kind of HP gains are they going to get with a CAI, better exhaust, headers, 60mm TB, porting, etc. and I always say to myself, not near as much if you were to drop a stock 350 in it and my cost would be about the same.

 

The problem seems to be more about culture and if mixing them together alters the gene pool which in turn bastardizes the Z. I don't think so.

[pparaska]

I agree - it's definitely cultural. And I think it's also generational. Art, people that grew up in the US when we did mostly drove american cars. But today's young people grew up with many japanese cars in the household. And American car quality went into the crapper in the 70s and 80s, (and past that), while the Japanese cars grew in quality. So it's obvious that many young people (in the US) will have a bias against American engines.

 

Me, I go for simple, easy, low maintance, easy tuning, robust, not-on-the-edge, large displacement (yes, lower hp/liter even) NA power for the street. It's a conscious decision I made. I might make a different one next time (like a not-so-small turbo GN engine).

[auxilary]

the benefit of having american iron (or aluminum, depending on the motor) is that you can walk into ANY autoshop and buy any part you need. Need an edelbrock intake manifold? BAM! Kragen has it as you walk in, hanging off the wall. Need a crank? Summit has every part you could ever need, cheap.

 

Try getting a cheap diesel maxima crank for the L28 build up.

 

Ironically, this coming from a guy who's putting a rotary into a Z.

[Phantom]

With 12 years under my belt on my current 280z, 11 with the L28 and about 6 months with the LS1/T56 I'll be glad take a stand on behalf of the V-8 conversion. I considered three options for five years before going the V-8 route. The three options were: a built NA version of the L28, a boosted L28, or a V-8. The V-8 won.

[JKDGabe]

I'm not qualified to be spokesman, just wanted to say that how you phrase the question is critical. For the few people that will read the discussion who don't have their minds made up from the beginning the word "bastardize" will prejudice them right away. You'll need to find a word that doesn't have such a stigma to it.

[auxilary]

Z purists are like vegetarians and vegans. vegetarians don't consume meat or fish, but eat eggs, cheese, etc. Vegans go a step beyond and don't eat anything that's a product of an animal: no milk, no cheese, no eggs, etc.

 

Z purists fall into 2 categories as well. Those that think it's ok as long as you stay with original Z line up in terms of engines (ie. ok to put an l28 into a 240z, or an l28et into a 240z), and then there are those who think putting in a metric bolt from a hardware store to secure a fender is a sin.

 

[SportZ2]

The word purist should not be used with this question.

 

Some guys who put turbos (L6 and V6) and strokers into Z's don't believe V8's should be used for whatever reason, putting them in the same position as a purist. Taking into consideration that purist's look at the Z as a whole and modifiers look at it from a performance viewpoint. Neither is wrong, just different, but the same when it comes to the V8.

 

More Z owners will except a highly modified Z no matter what is done as long as the drivetrain is Nissan.

 

Here's something to think about. When ever you see someone post about using a 4 barral carb on their L6, most responses are: DON'T, stick with the SU's or go triple. Does this have something to do with the fact that most people think it is best suited for a V8 and has no place on a Nissan engine.

 

I don't think so, I believe that any combination can work if there is enough knowledge behind it.

 

This is not as simple as hybrids vs classics. It's about V8's vs everyone. I know a lot of guys that tell me that I should build up the L6 and forget about the V8. I don't ask why, because I've heard it all before.

 

Instead of using Bastardize, maybe it could be Americanized.

[auxilary]

So, american v8 only vs. purists?

 

That kind of leaves out a lot of other hybrids

[auxilary]

So, american v8 only vs. ppurists?

 

That kind of leaves out a lot of other hybrids