David Spillman Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 HI, Asking for more advice. Bought a Z on ebay that its description Started as above stated. "You are bidding on an All Original 240z." Question... 1) What would be your take on this car? 2) Would you expect the "original" engine to be in the car? Offered from a well know parts supplier, a guy with considerable knowledge of our marque....even rebuilds a few. 3) Does his claim make him liable when "correct # engine is not there.(Has a L28 block) 4) Could you make an argument that correct engine really isn't needed to be an all original car? 5) Should buyer be compensated for inability of seller to provide original equipment? (I've been offered "I'm sorry" from seller) There's really only a couple of items that are identified to a specific car to be original. I think the engine is one of them Looking for opinions, thoughts, suggestions to help with this disagreement. David spillman (wishing I was a lot closer to California) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
80LS1T Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 With out a doubt the #'s should match if your going to say "all orginal 240Z" Basically if you say that(in my opinion) everything from rims to seats should be what the car came with. Now if there have been parts replaced on it(which Im sure thare has been) they too should have been 240Z parts, not 260Z or 280Z parts. When someone makes a statement like that I think they should be held liable for not providing what the description says. Did the "ad" on ebay state that the engine was not a 240Z engine(block)? If so then I would say you are screwed since it was clearly stated in the ad. Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auxilary Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 an all original car to me means the following: 1. matching serial #s, original engine 2. matching oem equipment, ie. what came on the car from factory 3. original paint, maybe reupholstered interior. I could never buy a car on ebay because I wouldn't know what I was buying. Pictures don't always show everything Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Drewz Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 I agree with Aux. and Guy. But always remember when buying from Ebay or anywhere, BUYER BE WARY!!! Alot of people over state Z cars when they sell them cause alot of people not in the know think they are gold mines. Too bad it is only the 69/70's that pull the huge bucks we hear about. Sorry to hear about your plight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nic-Rebel450CA Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 In order to accurately respond, we would need to see the auction listing. What is the item number? Yes, to be "all original" it should be all matching numbers components, engine and transmission. The only things that are typically accepted on an "all original car" are things like seat covers which are added onto the OEM equipment and can be removed leaving the OEM equipment undamaged and in place. However, if the auction listing stated that the engine was a 280 engine, or stated any other modifications then you are accepting those by bidding on the car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Shasteen Posted February 4, 2004 Share Posted February 4, 2004 Before taking any action do you know or have you confirmed that the engine is not an "Certified Datsun Replacement Engine"? In other words, if/when an engine fails the dealer will have a rpl engine that the mfg authorizes as a direct OEM replacement engine. This engine will have specific serial#'s that separate it from just any other engine from another car. The auth OEM rpl engine will have serial#'s indicating that it is auth OEM rpl engine as opposed to just some other engine from another car. As to your car you purchased: If he says in his add, "All Original 240z" and did not disclose up front that there were one or more items on the Z that "Are Not Original 240z Parts" then his lack of disclosure can land him in a heap'n help'n of legal problems. Even if you signed some sort of a buyer beware disclaimer...you signed said disclaimer and or baught said car under the pretense of it being "All Original 240z". Therefore, if the car is not "All Original 240z" then he sold the car to you under false pretenses and anything you signed under false pretenses are void from inseption....in court, He Loses and YOU WIN: especially if he is an "Expert" because he either knew or should've known that the car was not an "All Original 240z". If there are items that are not "All Original 240z" and it was your having read said vernacular "All Original 240z" that inspired you to buy said car, or to buy the car at the price you paid for it-where had the words "All Original 240z" not been a part of the description...then you would have neither bought said car or would have not paid as much for said car-then the seller's butt is in a possible legal sling. It all depends on why you purchased the car and what you were going to do with the car after having purhcased it. As far as taking action against the seller you should weigh the pro's and con's as to what was you intended purpose of buying the car? Did you buy the car because of its originality too which you too were going to keep it an "All Original 240z" or were you going to alter the engine and/or its body in some manner? If you too were going to alter the car then you would need to weigh the items that were not original against the items you yourself were going to alter. It is your choice to take action or not. Without more details from you it really is hard to say one way or another. If you feel you were seriously rooked you should locate an atty in the state where the car was purchased that specializes in "Consumer Protection Rights". Kevin, (Yea,Still an Inliner) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop N Wood Posted February 4, 2004 Share Posted February 4, 2004 As far as I am concerned, if it has so much as aftermarket strut cartridges, then it is not all original. But a different engine unquestionably makes it a modified and not original item. About the only thing that should be replaced on an "all original" vehicle would be consumable items, like hoses, belts, brakes, filters etc. On the other side, there is such a thing as full disclosure. If he told you that the car did not have the original engine, then you can't very well complain about it after the sale. And yes, an L28 in a 240 makes it a modified 240 diminishing it's collector's appeal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest goldraven Posted February 4, 2004 Share Posted February 4, 2004 keep in mind, it is not illegal to back out of a sale once you have won it. When i was trying to sell my ls1 t56, i had to post it on ebay 3 times...people backed out of it after the end of the auction 3 times...ended up having to sell it locally. the only thing you can really do is give bad feedback. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Spillman Posted February 4, 2004 Author Share Posted February 4, 2004 This ain't the best board to hash out about original stuff but heres the whole ad,with linkto ebay ad.... Hi, I've asked couple of questions concerning a 240 I bought off ebay a couple of weeks back from a professional restorer who specializes in Zs and roadsters. Looking for opinions or comments on my predicament. Car was advertised as All Original 240z. Once I received car a quick peek under the hood showed that block had been swapped out. ....L28 block looking back at me! Other items were described in misleading fashion as well but can be fixed or replaced..."example"few parking lot dings are a row of 15 small dents across top of door starting at base of mirror...etc,etc and just what does excellent condition mean?...remember this is a professional restorer describing this car not some guy of the street! I've had requests that ad info be posted to have all the "facts" to help see the whole picture. Heres address http://tinyurl.com/29ao7 Sorry, Hyperlink illiterate If buying a car from a restoration specialist who claims that a car is (ALL Original) who would have reason to doubt his claim? Up until this point TOO Intense Restoration has enjoyed a good reputation. I've asked for some kinda compensation for his oversight but refuses because he didn't relize it was wrong engine.... if you've read his ad, He planned to restore himself...and you didn't check engine numbers? B.S. Where do I go from here? No where really just an educational excercise. David Spillman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David K Posted February 4, 2004 Share Posted February 4, 2004 Wow this guy is spamming this all over a bunch of z sites! At the end of his first post, he says "David spillman (wishing I was a lot closer to California)". He wishes he was a lot closer to cali because he has done nothing but send threatening emails to Too Intense Restoration, and then he expects compensation?!?!?!?!?! http://www.zcar.com/forums/read.php?f=4&i=138396&t=138396 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted February 4, 2004 Share Posted February 4, 2004 Guys, I know Spillman. He is a good guy and very reasonable. I believe he got screwed. I would be pissed too. It's not like us east coast guys can drop what were are doing and take a week to go to CA and contest a purchase. I've also been screwed from the left coast on ebay. No fun, no recourse. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auxilary Posted February 4, 2004 Share Posted February 4, 2004 contact the seller and voice your concern. see what he says about it. all original means (to me) that the car was not changed since it was sold. ie. a 30 year old rust bucket with original headlight bulbs is considered original too, but the fact that it has the wrong engine in it says it's false advertising. An all original car should have matching numbers and factory components. don't be forceful, be polite, and if necessary, remind him that word of power over all Z sites can either make or destroy his business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auxilary Posted February 4, 2004 Share Posted February 4, 2004 Wow this guy is spamming this all over a bunch of z sites! At the end of his first post' date=' he says "David spillman (wishing I was a lot closer to California)". He wishes he was a lot closer to cali because he has done nothing but send threatening emails to Too Intense Restoration, and then he expects compensation?!?!?!?!?! http://www.zcar.com/forums/read.php?f=4&i=138396&t=138396[/quote'] What do you expect him to do? His fault was that he didn't deal with TIR directly first, then take it to message boards. If I got ripped off by a Z business, you bet your ass I'd be telling everyone and their mom about it. I'd go differently about it first, but if I didn't get what I deserved, I'd use the power of speech. in short, this should have been handled differently, and like I said, he should email TIR and deal with them diplomatically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Spillman Posted February 5, 2004 Author Share Posted February 5, 2004 David Karey,auxilary, I recieved car on thursday morning brought this to TOO Intense attention last thursday...I did send out feelers/email to carl becks list to get their opinions of this description and what was missing so as to be able to place a value on a "original car" without the original engine....NO NAMES MENTIONED in these requests for opinions. Intense and I exchanged emails about this "oversight " from Friday to monday....culminating in a phone call to my office on my 800 line I offered"a recorded line" for quality control purposes. that has Intense refusing to compensate me for his admited "oversight" as phone went dead... Intense was given 3 options...on Friday 1)Find the block that was the original block and get it to me (I'm happy) 2)compensate me $800 "13-14%" of car cost...I offered to spend it in his store! 3)Do nothing and live with my negative feedback on ebay and read My story on the internet next couple of days. I waited still til the following day Tuesday before allowing TOO Intense Restoration on any of my emails/letters,or his ebay description for that matter I waited 5 days before calling this guy out, what time frame would any of you feel more appropriate? In my mind its all about integrity,responsibility,making others aware. Maybe caught this guy on a bad day? or 5? David Karey: (At the end of his first post, he says "David spillman (wishing I was a lot closer to California)". He wishes he was a lot closer to cali because he has done nothing but send threatening emails to Too Intense Restoration, and then he expects compensation?!?!?!?!?! )) If I was closer to California,it wouldn't cost me near as much to pursue fraud charges against this man.. On the otherhand Isn't that treble damages Hmmm.. Wishing I knew how to type faster, david spillman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1 Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 I've known David Spillman for years, probably 13 or 14 now. David has his own business and has been sucessful for quite a while. He is well thought of by customers, business associates like myself, employees, and friends. We have bought and sold car stuff from each other, and I know many other people who have had dealings with David. I bought the car I've got now from him, and every thing he told me about it was true. How many people here can say the person who sold them their car was completely truthful about it? In this case it was a 30 year old Z with extensive modifications, with a lot of potential for misrepresentation, and every thing David told me turned out to be correct. I've never heard anyone say David mislead them. If David says this guy misrepresented the car and screwed him over, I think the facts will prove that to be correct. I have no knowledge of Too Intense, but I know David personally, not just an internet acquaintance, and I think he's telling the truth. I know newer members haven't seen David post a lot, since he sold his V8 Z to me a couple of years ago, but he was one of the charter members of HybridZ. Member #10, which he lost in the software changeover. Don't jump to conclusions here. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 Well Couple of comments here... Guys David is one of OUR long time members, so lets not jump on the wagon to hammer HIM if HE was wronged by a VENDOR... Not taking sides, but The guy came to us for an opinion on dealing with a situation... As for David's last reply to this post, I think it clearly states the issue and it sounds to me like he was sold a misrepresented item. David Karey, Your comments bother me because you assume that his comment was threatening... NOT the case at all... Harder to file a claim against someone 3000 miles away... But I assure you, had I been the one screwed at "Too Intense" I'd have been on a plane and I'd have been visiting face to face... Mr. Spillman is handeling this in the best manor possible. Bringing to light the fact that this company, a supposed reputable restorer of Zs, has sold something other than described in the listing. What would YOU have done? As for Buying a car on Ebay... I'd throw in the caveate that I would NEVER buy a car I couldn't first go see. I have a 4 hour drive limit on a car I would personally want to buy off ebay... if I can't get there in four hours, then I'm not interested in bidding on it... Most people that sell a car on Ebay will be willing to deal with someone who is showing up with cash... When I bought my vette, I found it on EBAY. Back to David's issue, I'd pursue it as far as I could David, maybe get someone to represent you in your absence in California and go from there... You have a case if you choose to push it. Mike 8) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest intenserestoration Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 To All That Might Be Interested, Please Read Below This 240Z was purchased on Ebay by "Too Intense restoration" with our intention of building another show car, with the workload it was put on the back burner. So she was covered up in a car cover and parked inside the shop, when this 240Z was purchased the only inspection done was making sure the title matched the VIN plates, the engine compartment did not look to be disrupted. Meaning the 240Z head, Stock SU's etc were all there not once thinking to look at the block numbers. With the project not looking to take off we then re-listed the 240Z on Ebay listing the known issue of repair needed the bid was started far below what we paid with a reserve hoping that it would not be meet the reserve, that way it could sit in the shop a bit longer maybe clearing some of the work load and beginning the project. During the running of the auction I kept track of as many emails as I could regarding this 240Z. Over 350 emails and numerous phone calls from potential buyers inquiring and NOT ONE asked about the VIN numbers or any serial numbers on the 240Z. The winning bidder even called, and never asked about checking the block numbers, again because if he did, it would have been verified. I only wish that issued had come up, because none of this would have happened. I'd like to mention also, how do I know now…that the number don't match reading further this comment will make sense. So 7 days later the auction closes with a winning bid of 5500.00 the highest bidder then contacted me asking to purchase a carpet I mentioned to him that the auction comes with a 16pc seal kit and a 5pc carpet kit. He then said, "I know but I need another 5pc carpet kit for the other 240Z I'm working on" About a week or so later the funds arrived for this auction with the extra funds for the second 5pc carpet that the high bidder needed for his second 240Z. Delivery was made and I received a phone call from the now new owner of his second 240Z, he proceeded to tell me that the numbers don't match. Meaning the block serial number does not match the VIN, number. My reply was sad but honest I said "I apologized for not checking that, all I check was the driver door, dash, title and under the hood plates. I went on to say " I'll contact the gentlemen that I purchased the 240Z from" and before I could even contact this person the new owner started the smear campaign of how I cheat him and he need compensation. Compensation was in the card from me to him, but now I wonder what VIN numbers are correct realizing that he has (2) 240Z it only makes me wonder. From what I gather the new owner of the 240Z purchased from us on Ebay has contacted numerous people over the internet asking for advise and what he should do and while he was doing all of that I was trying to track down my purchase hoping to get some answers to work something out. Now I hear also that he wishes he lived closer to California or even in the state of, because he would then handle things the old red neck way and that is his quote. I take that as a serious threat and at this point I don't feel compensation is what he wanted to begin with. For all I know and everyone else, the numbers do match and because there has been no prove do me that they don't. Just a bunch of very nasty emails and the smear campaign that the new owner has started. When he had to do is ask during the running of the auction, and that's not an excuse but just a fact. Yes the 240Z was listed as original because from all appearances she was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Drewz Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 When you state all original you should carry the burden of making sure you know what you are talking about. As a buisness owner myself I take GREAT care to be sure I don't overstate something especially when it is so easy to check myself. I am not berating or saying you are an untruthful person but you made a statement without verifing it first and that was your burden. I have too made mistakes and have gone the extra mile to reconcile the situation even though it was an honest mistake. Crappy situation but it all should get sorted out. Frustrated people/customers need to keep their head as well. Honey attracts bees and s*it attracts flies. A little overzealous on his remarks to you but there was not threat of attack in any way on you or your property he is just frustrated that being so far away that you will ignore him. If you are here posting that is a good indication you want to make it right I assume? Hopefully calmer heads and tempers prevail. I hope it works out for both of you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 *I"m responding to this as Mike Kelly, NOT The administrator for HybridZ. HybridZ has NOTHING to do with my personal view on this matter and my opinion should NOT reflect and does not IMPLY a stance from this site or it's owner/ owners. IntenseRestorations, Although I appreciate your coming here to exlpain your side of the story, I have no doubt that this gentleman's comments regarding his distance from you had nothing to do with handling things the old "Redneck fashion". The guy is out $5500 and you expect him to do what? Say nothing? If that IS your expectation, then you haven't been in America long... Word of mouth make businesses successful or kills them outright... He feels he was screwed and he is taking his case to the public. He didn't like your responses to his request for refund of some of the money HE was willing to spend at YOR shop... Regardless how this plays out, as a former vendor myself, You should have taken that offer and been happy, because we both know $800 to be spent in your shop would have meant more like you being out of pocket MUCH less than $800. You may have thought you were doing good in defending yourself, but those comments show a lack of professionalism that only draw more questions to your business ethics than provide answers. Bottom line is this individual bought something represented in a certain manor. His claim is that the numbers don't match and the condition wasn't as advertised. From your description in this text, I'm lead to believe you don't know what the numbers on the block were, or if those on the firewall even matched the numbers on the dash plaque. Sounds to me (From your description above) like you bought a car, found out it wasn't worth the effort, and sold it as original. The devil is in the details, and your ad details the car as original. The fact that he had one or fifty other Zs should have meant NOTHING to you and would NOT mean anything in a civil litigation in court... So yea, YOU ARE lucky that this is him and not ME. I personally expected more from someone coming HERE to plead their case. I'm willing to collect donations for a plane ticket for him to come out to California! I'll pony up $50 to start it off... Maybe we could see you guys on Judge Judy? You two need to settle this and be done with it... Trying your case in public is only going to make it worse... Never helps anyone, on either side... I've lived it. Mike Kelly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdab Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 So let me get this straight. You list a car on ebay. You say it's an "all original" car. The car sells for 5.5k. Turns out it's not "all original" at all. Now your mad because this guy is telling everyone he got screwed over? To add insult to injury, you suggest that he is lying about the VIN numbers not matching when you say yourself that you didn't check them? You are lucky he doesn't live closer to CA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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