Audiophile Techies - Your Opinions Please

[Poundz9oh9]

What's wrong with the sound of the engine?? It's got a soothing sound all of it's own...

[Phantom]

All - thanks for your input!!

PoundZ - I like the sound of the engine but after a couple hours it's either going to put me to sleep or give me a headache. Time to tone it down just a bit so I can listen to the tunes I enjoy.

Jeff - I PM'd you with a review of where I am now.

Brad-Man - I'll probably stick with 6x9's in the rear because I already have the sound enclosure for them and have been using it for a couple years now. It works pretty well but needs a little more oomph.

All - I'm phasing toward the dark side and am now considering an 8-10" subwoofer in the well behind the driver's seat. I know it can accommodate an 8" for sure, and maybe a 10". The well can also be properly treated to act as a decent enclosure for the sub. The well behind the passenger seat is reserved for the CD changer as it will be relatively easy to access from the driver's seat.

The systems I've had proposed so far range around $2k for equipment and installation so that should indicate to all that I'm trying to go with better equipment.

One of the controlling criteria of this installation comes back to the planned use for this car - It is a jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none. It is primarily a daily driver so broad functionality of the car (think hauling groceries & 2x4's) is paramount in the decision process. It also goes to car shows and to the track where I don't intend to have to remove the equipment. It needs to be solidly buttoned down. That makes the system design more challenging, expensive, and forces some compromises.

[RPMS]

Phantom, I can't legitimately disagree with anything Jeff said, which is REALLY unusual for me!

 

Two things I might add: The amps built into the vast majority of head units is simply inadequate to power an entire car's worth of speakers. An external amp will give you worlds better performance. The good news is, the interior volume of these cars is small enough that you don't need mega-wattage to make them loud and accurate. I'm only running about 200 watts, but I've got fairly efficient speakers (Infinity). Buy higher quality small amps with at least 3db of headroom rather than a low-quality megawatt amp for the same money.

 

Secondly, use bass-blocking capacitors for the front speakers and you'll be very glad you did. Your music will be MUCH clearer when you're not trying to push low frequencies through small front speakers.

 

Thirdly (yeah, I know I said "two things", but i lied. ) the best advice I ever got in car stereo was to buy simple equipment from a high end company rather than complicated stereos from second-line manufacturers. You will have fewer bells and whistles to impress the geeks, but it will be sturdier and sound much better. I may get tomatoes thrown at me for saying this, but avoid Pioneer, Aiwa, Rockford, JVC etc. in favor of a more basic Alpine, Eclipse, and (IMHO) Kenwood's Excelon line.

 

I'm glad you're reconsidering the subwoofer. Mine is strapped down in the back and wired in with quick-disconnects so it's easily removed when cargo space is needed. It's small enough to fit comfortably and not be boomy, but big enough to get the job done. It's being driven by a small 80 watt Alpine amp under the passenger seat.

 

Just my .02... I could be wrong.

[(goldfish)]

Make the car as quite as possible. And decide how loud it will be played. After my mazda, I won't put more than a 100W a channel amp in a car, it's too loud. For a sub I would stay with the best 8" you can afford w/ a high quality, maybe custom box. Most boxes you will find are to small for the speaker. This plays a very imporant part in the subs performance ( like viper motor with a 2" exhaust) and can kill and muddy up a good low end.

 

 

It's refreshing to read a thread about car audio that has real advice on quality, not yeah just put 4 12" subs in the back.

[Guest JAMIE T]

I've always swayed toward the tendency to buy products from the guys who specialize in it. I prefer Alpine head units, Boston Acoustic Pro series speakers, and currently have a Rockford Fosgate POWER 800a4 amp.

 

My system is as simple as it gets. One 12" Boston Acoustic Pro sub, and a set of Boston Acoustic Pro seperates(w/6.5" mids). The Amp is a 4 channel rated at 200x4 but makes a total of 960 "real" watts at 2 ohms. I'm runningit at 4 ohms though.

[Moridin]

If you are going to do the install yourself, you can come up with an awesome system for that amount of money.

 

I say nice Alpine, Blaupunkt, or Pioneer deck. Next, get some front seperates. CDT audio is supposed to be very nice. Good, warm sound. I find MB Quarts to be too sharp in the highs. A good 10" subwoofer will do you well. JL audio W3, MB Quart, or CDT Audio audiophile sub in an appopriately sized sealed box. A good sub will compliment your music, not overpower it. Now, you're going to need two good amps to power the front speakers and sub. I suggest Blaupunkt T-Class or U.S. Acoustics, because they are very underated in power and offer a very good signal to noise ratio. You will also need to sound deaden the tin can car with something. There are two things I would use, Duplicolor's spray on undercoating and Brown Bead mat from http://www.bquiet.com. Lastly, you need good quality wires. http://www.knukonceptz.com has some very good stuff for Radio shack prices. I'd run a 2 or 4 gauge wire to your amps, and split it into the largest possible size that each amp will take. Good length RCA cables are also in order, and enough properly sized speaker cable for the whole car.

 

Mounting of the speakers is extremely important. Many suggest making a kick panel to fit both the mid-range speaker and tweeter (or three speakers if you go with three way seperates). I've had good look mounting it right below the windshield, reflecting upward to bounce off the glass.

 

Hope some of this helps. These are things I've learned doing some of this myself and reading a lot.

[ToplessZ]

I know convenience is nice when it comes to putting things together but I recomend forgetting the cd changer. Even the good ones skip much worse than a regular cd player and you could spend that extra equipment and install cost on a much better amp speakers and head unit. I can't stress enough how much better off you will be without the 6x9 enclosure if you want a really nice clean sound. Post it on the board or on ebay recoup a few dollars and look at some 6.5 inch replacements. I also highly recommend the 8 inch sub in your application. Ive been messing with car stereos for several years and can say two things. Do not buy any generic stuff....PERIOD I'll reiterate what others have said here. Go with a low wattage amp small sub and basic head unit from alpine or similar and a small sub. Ill bet a few bucks you wont be dissapointed. Good luck.

[speeder]

I just installed a system in my '78 daily driver that seems close to what you want.

 

I am a wanna-be jazz/ blues bass player and need good, clean, non-boomy bass. I don't need a big cabinet in the cargo area of my grocery and parts getter.

 

I took both the tool box cavities in back of the seats and sealed them airtight with a plywood panel on the top opening, then silicone caulked the interior seams. Foam was used in the connecting space between these two areas to isolate them from each other. I cut the round openings for the subs out of the metal fronts of the tool cavities so the built-in subs face forward toward the seat backs.

 

I used 8" Polk Subs with 3/4" spacer rings (to give sufficient depth clearance) mounted into these built-in enclosures. The enclosures are filled with acoustic padding. I chose these subs because they will work well in a smallish (.35 cu. ft and up) sealed box.

 

For main speakers I have Boston Acoustics separates -4"mid- 1" tweeters in the stock quarter panel location.

 

I have a pair of Pioneer 1-3/4" tweeters mounted at the upper corners of the dash pointed up to reflect sound off the windshield for the front stage.High-pass capacitors are installed into these speaker wires to block low frequecies below about 2khz.

 

My head unit is Clarion, and has a built -in lowpass/ high pass filter, directing low frequencies at a selectable lowpass point (I use 120hz) to the sub power amp and the highs above this point to the fader - controlled front and rear power amps.

 

I have three stereo channnels of power amps ( one 4-channel and one 2-channel, by Hi-Phonics) of 100 watts RMS each driving each of the three speaker sets. 300 RMS watts at 4 ohms are more than sufficient for a Z. The power amps are mounted to the metal structure underneath the masonite rear deck board, out of sight.

 

I have a remote - mount Sirius satellite receiver and a six- disc Clarion CD changer under the seat (both controlled by the head unit) that only skips when the car hits a bump hard enough to get airborn.

 

This system gives the good clean sound that I need and is all built in.

 

I have some fairly thick carpet/ padding in the car, probably could use some more acoustic padding, but it's good for now.

 

Cost was around 1600.00 with careful shopping for bargains on name brand components and installed by myself.

 

The best advice I can give is not to cut corners on your speakers, and avoid no-name brands of equipment.

[RPMS]

I just installed a system in my '78 daily driver that seems close to what you want.

 

Rick, I sure wish you lived close enough for me to drop by and hear your system! It sounds like it would be nice.

[Doug71zt]

I second Speeder's suggestion on the sub location. I have a pair of ADS S7 subs in the same location with pretty much the same installation details. Bass is quite natural, not exaggerated. Up front is BA pro 5.25 separates in the doors. They are a little hot for my tastes - but that could also be a result of the installation configuration, as the seats are quite a bit off-axis of the tweeters. (My home setup is all custom Dynaudio, which is quite smooth and laidback). Power from a pair of Soundstream D200-II's, electonic crossover 18db/octave set around 140HZ (Audio Control), all under the seats. Denon CD deck - on its last legs. I put the system in around 1993, and apart from the deck, everything is still 100%. You won't be sorry if you buy quality. I'm a bit overpowered (400WRMS), but the system has great transients, which is important for realism. I have well over 2000WRMS at home in a tri-amp setup (Bryston 7B,4B,3B) and I rarely play it loud.

Hope that this helps you out, maybe a bit..

 

Doug

[Guest PROJECTRB240SX]

I'M A BIG FAN AND QUITE PARTIAL TO KENWOOD PRODUCTS... I'VE HAD GREAT SUCESS WITH BOSTON ACOUSTIC SPEAKERS AND POLK SUBS.

 

MY SYSTEM GOING IN THE 75 280Z COUPE IS AS SUCH:

 

KENWOOD EXCELON DECK (TO BE DETERMIND BUT MUST HAVE 3 PRE-OUTS AND MUSIC KEG COMPATABILITY)

KENWOOD 5 CHANNEL AMP (FOR EASE AND SINGULAR CONTROL... LESS COMPLICATION)

(4) BOSTON ACOUSTIC 5" SPEAKERS (THEY HAVE NEW PRODUCTS OUT NOW AND I REALLY NEED TO PICK UP A BROCHURE) - (2) IN EITHER FRONT KICK PANELS AND (2) DIRECTLY BEHIND THE FRONT SEATS ANGELD STRAIGHT TOWARDS EARS (CROSSING SOUND WAVES ALTER AND DISTOR SOUND QUALITY)

 

(1) 8" POLK AUDIO SUB WITH A CUSTOM ENCLOSURE IN THE REAR DRIVER SIDE REAR SIDE PANEL (SECTION JUST IN FRONT OF THE DRIVER SIDE TAILLIGHT (ON THE PASSANGER SIDE IS THE FUEL TANK VAPOR CANISTER SO THE DRIVER SIDE HAS A VOID)

 

KENWOOD EXCELON 20 GIG MUSIC KEG

 

THIS IS A RATHER SIMPLE SYSTEM WITH DECENT AUDIBLE QUALITIES, EASY CONTROL, AND DECENT POWER. THE MUSIC KEG IS JUST FOR HAVE 100+ HOURS OF MUSIC ON TAP COMMERCIAL FREE AND NO MONTHLY FEE!

[Gollum]

well, i consider myself a ture audiophile, wich is why i've given up having a nice system in a car.

 

Simply put, i'm spoiled. I'm used to my home theater, my ribbon speakers in my sound room, with huge carver amps. So, i tend to just do what i think will be "low as i'll go" when it comes to car audio.

 

Many heads now put out a 200 peak wattage. But they still have a low RMS. So, i recomend a budget amp by a well know company. As faar as speakers go. I always recomend infinty kappa Series. They're AWSOME. They're better than many 1grand and up systems i've heard. And they start at around one hundered for a pair. I still don't understand how they got the price so cheep, but anything infinity is good stuff, i guarentee.

 

If you can find them in the right sizes, i really recomend kappa series by infinity.

 

http://www.audio-n-more.com/infinity/infinity_kappa.shtml

 

You'll see the kappa series section as you scroll down. This is just some random site i found in 10 seconds. I don't know how much prices will differ from where you'll find them.

 

PS. I still never recomend subs in cars. They're pointless. You can get plenty of bass out of a decent set of 4 inch speakers with a good amp. I've heard 6inch speakers put out more bass than my home audio sub. I've heard 4inchers put out more bass than any cheep 12inch i've heard. A well build speaker with a nice chunka magnet and a solid coil design will have bass resonce. Give it the power it craves and the bass will be fine. Subs really aren't nessesary by any means.

[Guest PROJECTRB240SX]

THE REASON FOR SUBS IS TO SEPARATE AUDIO CHANNELS/FREQUENCIES WHICH ALLOWS FOR 100 TIMES BETTER SOUND QUALITY AND CLARITY. THINK ABOUT IT... IF YOU HAVE 100% OF YOUR AUDIO FREQUENCIES COMING FROM ONE SPEAKER IT'LL BE GARBLED AND WORKING TWICE AS HARD TO KEEP UP WITH THE MUSIC... NOW SEPARATE THAT ONE SPEAKER IN TO THREE: HIGH, MID, LOW... AND YOUR SYSTEM WILL NOT WORK AS HARD, HAVE BETTER QUALITY, AND ACTUALLY HAVE ALOT MORE VOLUME.

[Gollum]

I uderstand the concept. I just really don't think it's nessesary in a car.

[2126]

Very subjective subject.....sound systems!!! What pleases one person does not necessarly please another. In past years I worked for a proffesional audio outfit (Westlake Audio) who builds, owns, and operates some of the best recording studios in the world. So, I've had the oportunity to listen to many good systems (not car systems). Most people have never had the chance to listen to an accurite (flat responce) system, sometime refered to an a reference system. To achieve this cost many $$$. One of the problems with any system in the source material you play. They can be fat in the lower freqs and lacking in other areas of the sound spectrum, or the other way around. So, one CD may sound alot better than another on a given system. Fortunately, cars, with low volume (interior space), good sound is much easier to obtain. My humble suggestion is....use a good clean power amp (min. 100w and up) a 24db p/octive adjustable crossover, and good quality speakers. This will allow you to EQ out any stange anomalies. One more little issue....what is up with the younger crowd and the super overloaded bass? Do they actually think that's good sound....not!!!! You can feel them coming from blocks away! Remember one key point, if it sounds good to you then it's truely a good system for you.

[Hugh]

I figured I'd grow out of having a subwoofer in my car... but nope... 28 years old, and I still love having that low end thump.

 

Some people say its not necessary in a car. To me, its impossible to have in my condo without driving the neighbors crazy. I keep my loud music on the freeway where nobody hears it but me.

 

I like to have my sound system extremely loud in the vehicle, and not so noticable on the outside. This is accomplished by having a powerful system without turning it up so loud. Having 1000watts potential doesn't mean you have to rock 1000watts all day... at a nice comfortable volume, all those speakers still sound great.

[RPMS]

Simply put' date=' i'm spoiled. I'm used to my home theater, my ribbon speakers in my sound room, with huge carver amps.

...snip...

PS. I still never recomend subs in cars. They're pointless. You can get plenty of bass out of a decent set of 4 inch speakers with a good amp. ...Subs really aren't nessesary by any means.[/quote']

 

Spoken like a true afficianado of ribbon speakers! "You're not hearing bass because it's not in the master recording. I swear!"

 

I respect your opinion, but factually you're incorrect. There's no way a four inch diameter driver in a typical enclosure can move the air that's necessary to generate a 40 hertz note at any decent volume level. Keep in mind that a four inch driver has to have a linear travel 6.25 times as great as a 10 inch driver to create the same pressure wave. Signals that require my sub driver to excurse 1/4 inch would have your four inch driver blowing out of its frame.

 

This is, of course, assuming that you don't have an exotic enclosure like a folded horn taking up all the room in the hatch of your Z. If so you're hogging the hatch space anyway, so why not simply use a bigger driver?

 

I suspect what's going on here is that you're used to crisp, tight bass that rolls off around 100 Hz. I prefer my low end to be more extended and visceral than that, so I have a subwoofer. There are indeed other ways of getting your bass fix without one, but they're usually much more expensive. Why go twin turbo four cylinder when you can just stuff in a V8 and get twice the performance for half the price?

 

By the way - don't ever listen to a properly tuned Hsu Research sub hooked up to your ribbon speakers. You'll realize what you're missing and have $850 less to spend on your car.

[Brad-ManQ45]

Try Martin Logan Quests w/250 watts/ch and a Velodyne ULD-18 crossed over at 45HZ...

[Guest wannarace1]

I agree with Gollum. The car environment is probably the worst possible area to try to achieve realistic sound. Especially in these little tin cans with howling engines we run around in.

My company designs and builds amplifiers for custom home theaters as well as professional studios including Skywlker Sound, Pixar, and Industrial Light and Magic. The best system has perfectly flat frequency response.

I have been down the 12 volt road. I have 2000 watts, 8 speakers and a 30 band EQ in the my single cab S-10. It is ridiculous to spend the $$$ on high end equipment for the car. Buy a plasma screen for the bathroom instead.

 

IMHO, Spend the budget you have alotted for, and don't get sucked in to the "more is better" with car audio. Your freakin drivers are pointing right at each other or into yoiur knees, with bass behind you, and possible high frequencies bouncing off your windows...that is supposed to image ?????

 

The guys talking about home audio being the real deal, are right. Spend money on Single Ended, or OTL tube monoblocks for a real music experience.

 

6x9 speakers were designed for space reasons, and have no musical benefit. The oval is a horrible shape for a cone. Use round drivers. Tweeters on your A pillars will make your sound hot on top, and be out of phase with door speakers. For best image use kick pods with a 2 way speaker facing wherever you want the sweet spot. Use one good 4 channel power amp, and forget the crappy head unit power. Use a half din EQ to cut or boost frequencies for best sound depending on the source material. If you want bass, use JL Audio 6 inch midbass woofers low in the doors, with your mid and high in kick pods. Forget speakers behind you, this isn't surround sound, its stereo 2 channel music.

 

BTW, I have a brand new vacuum tube car amp from Butler for sale if anybody wants it. (Tube Driver Blue)

 

Cheers !!

[(goldfish)]

let's not even get into how bad the imaging will be.