Guest Chris240turbo Posted July 11, 2004 Share Posted July 11, 2004 So Tony, what you are saying is that, in Japan (which I've never been to) it's possible to find a shop/corporation, that will cast and build a dohc, 24 valve cylinder head for L series engines, for upwards of $20,000 but here in america there are several companies making aftermarket aluminum heads for domestic V-8's (and a few 4-bangers, like esslinger) for well under $2000, complete for 2 (!) heads, and even some that are fairly rare (AMC's etc). MORE THAN TEN TIMES AS MUCH!!! YIKES!!! I'm not saying that you're wrong, far from it! but you would think, in light of early Z cars original and continuing popularity that such a thing would surely be more profitable to sell at a price more in line with the working stiff that the super rich! after all, they aren't selling ANY of them now... man, what must they charge for machine shop time as compared to here! I can't believe they need to recoup the engineering and developement time cost, not after 15-20 years of making NONE! I have an idea, just get them to rough cast a crap load of these heads, and send them over with the specs on finished port size, valve and cam specs, etc, and take it to someone here, the birthplace of the machine tool! USA speed and machine shops MUST be much more hungry than japanese! for $24000, I would expect to be able to ship my engine from here to there, AND have it built by the best mechanics that japan has, parts included, AND have it shipped back! I'm curious as to what these fellows get quoted for a price, keep us posted! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HS30-H Posted July 11, 2004 Share Posted July 11, 2004 ......... and take it to someone here, the birthplace of the machine tool! ...... "The birthplace of the machine tool"? The USA? Oh, I get it - that's a JOKE, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speeder Posted July 11, 2004 Share Posted July 11, 2004 HS30-H, Would you mind if I posted your famous picture of the OS Giken - Headed twin turbo? Seems like once a year or so new members read about this head and try to get one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HS30-H Posted July 11, 2004 Share Posted July 11, 2004 Hi Speeder, Sure. Please do. I wish people would use the SEARCH function a little more before posting on this kind of topic. There's been a great amount of data posted and interesting conversation made about the Japanese aftermarket heads, and Nissan's own race option heads, on this site and others in the past. Seems we are doomed to repeat history; the first time as tragedy, the second time as farce.......... Alan T. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speeder Posted July 11, 2004 Share Posted July 11, 2004 Still way cool to look at - Thanks Alan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid240z Posted July 11, 2004 Share Posted July 11, 2004 Holy twin turbos Batman... What kind of numbers is that thing putting out and how much did it cost to acquire that head, if you don't mind me asking. again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RB26powered74zcar Posted July 11, 2004 Share Posted July 11, 2004 That musta been a nightmare to tune, with those carbs and no stand-alone.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z-REX Posted July 11, 2004 Share Posted July 11, 2004 i'm in utter awe. thank you for posting that pic! so if my eyes don't fail me, all fuel/intake- related equipment is on the opposite side from the exhaust and therefore the turbos? what a great idea... sure would make routing intercooler pipe a hell of a lot simpler! not to mention less ambient heat around the intakes. edit... some searching and i now understand the theory of crossflow heads. wow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbobluestreak Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 Hey Chris240turbo , Since we live in America and everybody and their brother owns a small block or a big block the production of a set of heads is very easy to turn a profit off of. Another thing that has come to my attention is that ford and gm have released prints of engines to performance shops and machine shops. Nissan doesn't give out anything to anyone unless you can assure them that they will never be made public to anyone. Also if we even are "the birthplace of the machine tool" I don't know if we are or not but I do know that after 6 lectures from tooling dealers Europe leads in tooling and can machine to tolerances and surface finishes that we can only get by grinding after machining. My best guess as why the head never really became to profitable to keep in production was that they realized what a lot us have that the L6 N42 and P90 can be ported to flow enough to make power. I myself have just acquired a N42 that I want to port out. But I still like the idea of a 24 valve crossflow head on a L6 that’s why I haven’t' given up work on my custom head. Oh Mack if you ever decide that you don't have time to fix the EB head and graph it onto the L6 or something, let me know and I'll be more than happy purchase it to graph that onto the L6 block. tbs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RCNSC Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 That car doesnt have that part of the body (that bar) thats in front of the radiator like my and every other Z I've seen. Weird. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synlubes Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 It has been some what altered. (sorry Pete, I had to) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Chris240turbo Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 HS30-H, Yep, I said "birthplace of the machine tool" I challenge you to prove me wrong! or at least provide some concrete evidence as to why this is not so... chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HS30-H Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 Chris, We might get into a philosophical argument about what actually constitutes a "Machine Tool" unless we are careful....... But since you said it, I think its up to YOU to tell ME why the USA is "The birthplace of the machine tool...". The USA might very well be where the machine tool grew up ( those Bridgeport and Cincinnatti mills I used to work on might be good testament to that ), and it might very well be where it was refined. But if I were you I wouldn't bet on knowing its birthplace. Don't get me wrong - I'm not trying to say that the machine tool was born in England ( although cities like Birmingham and Coventry might say different ). Its just that when I read anything that looks jingoistic on the web, it tends to ring alarm bells for me. Your quote did just that, especially since it was in the context of the O.S. GIKEN discussion, and you were suggesting that they cast and rough-machine some heads and then send them over to the USA for finishing in "The home of the machine tool". Sorry - but to me that reads only one way; plain disrespectful to O.S GIKEN and Japan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvanen Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 Back to the subject on hand though, Prices... any official prices? Ateast this way we can point back to this forum and say "See so and so researched it and the last price for that head was X amount. So whats the price for 5 custom heads? My biggest Question is, how would this affect the SCCA placing of the car if it came stock on some cars? Also isn't this Engine essientially the birth of the Skyline RB? granted they have made some deffinite improvements since the early 70's. boost on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HS30-H Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 jvanen, As far as I can see, that figure of 5 kits was suggested by 'EnonvativForce' ( a company that re-sells / distributes OSG products in the USA? ) and not by O.S. GIKEN themselves. I think you'll find that they need more than 5 enquiries to get a firm price quotation. Nobody on this thread - or indeed any of the other threads started on other web forums on the same subject - has brought up the question of the Japanese market. Doesn't anybody imagine that Japanese enthusiasts, retailers and tuners have lobbied OSG in the past to re-make a kit? That's not just the Z crowd either - there are many different models ( Skylines for one comes to mind ) that modified L6 engines could be used on. Well, the answer is that they have been asking - but it still has not happened. The TC24-B1 never came 'stock' on any cars, so I don't see how your SCCA question is relevant. Its an aftermarket part. As for the TC24-B1 being the "....birth of the Skyline RB" I think you will find that the RB series had much more in common with the S20, which was in series production from 1969. The S20 influenced the FJ20 / FJ24 engines, which Nissan quotes as part of the RB family tree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ON3GO Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 alan what about chicago tool (cant spell), i know they have been around sense the start. also not to sound rude but the email they all got said "5 people".. so i cant see how you can say "think you'll find that they need more than 5 enquiries to get a firm price quotation." if they said 5 then 5 it must be. also i cant see how it would hurt to ask how much these would be these days, you never know theres a few people on this forum that have plenty of money to spend and 20 grand might not seem alot to them... you just dont know! and about this "plain disrespectful to O.S GIKEN and Japan" who cares if they cared about us then they still would be making these parts, they have moved onto bigger and newer things so, so what if we make our own "american" copy. i for one would buy one. mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheftrd Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 The heads were originally around $12,000. That's with header, intake, timing chain, cams, cam cover, and all the necessary hardware. That's cheap for a limited run of this type. A new plastic mold for car interior parts can easily reach $50,000. OS will not make them anymore as they no longer have the tooling. I know someone who has two complete set-ups, but they've been siting on the shelf for 20 years. I'll check to see if he will part with them, if they're still good, and for how much. The reason he abandoned them was because the factory N42 or P90 head could be made to produce more power as cam selection for the OS head is limited. Matt Hutchens Motorworx Race Systems Japan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HS30-H Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 alan what about chicago tool (cant spell), i know they have been around sense the start. ON3GO, I'm sure Chicago Tool have been around for a long time, but since the start of what exactly? My point being that I doubt that it would be possible to pinpoint the exact date, time and place of the "...birth of the machine tool." also not to sound rude but the email they all got said "5 people".. so i cant see how you can say "think you'll find that they need more than 5 enquiries to get a firm price quotation."if they said 5 then 5 it must be. That's not the way I read it. 'EnonvativForce' said that they needed a figure of 5' date=' and my understanding is that they wanted 5 enquiries in order to ask OSG whether they could give them a price. I certainly do not think this means that OSG will repop a minimum order of 5 sets. So far, I see no directly-quotable answer from OSG. We should not confuse answers from 'EnonvativForce' as being answers from OSG themselves. As was established many years ago, the casting patterns are no longer in useable condition. Re-tooling would be a huge investment in terms of time / manpower and finance. A company like OSG needs to look at the future, as they are not big enough or rich enough to go back and recreate their past. Not to say that they are not proud of their heritage ( quite the opposite ) but what good would it do them at this point? They are very unlikely to make any money out of it, and would be in danger of making a fair loss I would have thought. also i cant see how it would hurt to ask how much these would be these days, you never know theres a few people on this forum that have plenty of money to spend and 20 grand might not seem alot to them... you just dont know! Sure - it does not hurt to ask ( I asked them myself several times a few years back ) but I think very few people will put their money where their mouth is when it comes down to the bottom line. I think $20k is well short of the mark, and is another quote that has not come from OSG themselves either........ and about this "plain disrespectful to O.S GIKEN and Japan"who cares if they cared about us then they still would be making these parts' date=' they have moved onto bigger and newer things so, so what if we make our own "american" copy. i for one would buy one. mike[/quote'] I don't see why OSG have to "care" about 'us' in relation to the TC24-B1? Do they owe anybody anything? No! The only obligation they might possibly be seen to have would be to those people who still owned original TC24-B1 setups, and even then you'd have to say that it was such a long time ago that these people can't expect any help over and above what OSG can reasonably be expected to supply. OSG still make performance clutches and flywheels for the L6 engine, but how many people outside Japan buy them? Nothing wrong with the quality - its the price that hurts. That's just simple economics. If anybody wants to make an "American copy" then I don't see why they would have to 'copy' the OSG design in the first place? This is 2004. If anybody really wants to do it, then why not start with a clean sheet of paper? I read that the USA was "...the birthplace of the machine tool." after all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 Machine Tool: A penis on a Robot? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest z1 performance Posted September 4, 2004 Share Posted September 4, 2004 Having been involved in the aftermarket for longer than I care to admit at this point, I think you will find sourcing these heads in any other manner than used will be utterly impossible. While Ennovative might be the importer for OSG, I agree with what was stated above...you will not see these heads put into production, ever. That being said, the standard issue Nissan SOHC heads can be made to flow wonderful numbers and there is an endless array of camshafts, from mild to nuts, and then ludicrious, offered for them. The OSG setup is a marvel to behold IMHO because of the amount of R&D that went into it, and how it chose to address a sever shortcoming of the stock L series motor back in the day. However, given modern technology, it in no way represents the be all and end all of setups. Would I love to own one over my current head? Possible...if the numbers (cfm's) proved worthwhile adam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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