problem with european KN2 turbo exhaust manifold.

[Xander]

I am building a turbo engine for my 260Z and I have a european turbo exhaust manifold. All the turbo exhaust manifold I see on the web are of a one piece design. The manifold I have is made of three separate cast pieces connected with two flexible joints. Now I have a huge problem because after 20+ years the flexible pipe broke. And you guessed it. You can't buy a new piece.....

 

 

OK..... This is bizar. While I was typing this post. frank280zx called me and told me that he knows another guy here in holland that has a good machine shop AND is a Z nut. This guy broke exactly the same part TODAY and is going to come up with a better solution. I guess whe will have to wait a while.

 

I will keep you posted ( with pictures).

[Cody 82 ZXT]

Hurry up with the pictures. I've never seen a 3 peice turbo manifold. Is it factory like that?

[Tony D]

yeah, ditto on the photos, Xander. This sounds like some aftermarket piece rather than Factory Nissan.

 

Like the guy in "Dirty Harry":

 

"I gotsta know..."

[frank280zx]

sorry tony it is factory, infact Xander Get your ass uploading the pics, you got your camera back

[Tony D]

I've looked through all the fiches I have access to, and can't find a three piece Nissan Manifold for the L28.

I can find several different iterations of the standard L28ET manifold depending on wether or not it's an L20ET or L28, but the physical differences look indistinguishable from each other (since I do have the L20ET and L28ET manifolds here at the house). So I'm really kinda stoked to see some photos as I can't find a three piece in the Nissan Literature I have (US and JDM)

Why are you so sure it's factory Frank? I ahve seen some nice JDM Aftermarket Manifolds with stuff like "nissan" and "L20" in the castings before, but they were made by non-OEM manufacturers like SK and HKS.

 

Matter of fact, the SK manifold adapter that bolts onto the stock 75 exhaust manifold is a very nice piece, and looks OE! The placement of the turbo is almost exactly where Nissan placed it 6 years later! So close, as a matter of fact, the STOCK Nissan drain line fits if you reclock a stock turbo center section about 5 degrees!

 

BTW, the stock Single Piece L28ET manifold is still available new, and is cheap!

[Xander]

Sorry guys,

 

I will try to upload the pictures tonight.

 

It gets more bizar.===>

 

I will also post a picture of a P90A head with solid lifters. The european P90A did NOT have hydrolic lifters!!!

 

And the european turbo engine Has a centrifugal (sp?) advance mechanism with a vacuum pot. It has the VR pickup like the NA 280zx.

 

[Xander]

Here is a picture of the stock turbo manifold as it was sold in europe.

 

 

The little pipes go into the manifold and a flexible hose fits over the casts pieces and is secured with V-Clamps. I'm sorry that I dont have a better picture showing the flexible hose with clamp. It is a manifold made by hitachi.

 

And here is a picture of a P90A head with solid lifters.

 

 

As you can see It says P90A on the head But it has solid lifters. Not hydrolic ones. Hmmm... I guess none of us knew about these descrepancies.

[Cody 82 ZXT]

 

 

As you can see It says P90A on the head But it has solid lifters. Not hydrolic ones. Hmmm... I guess none of us knew about these descrepancies.

 

 

The P-90A with solid lifters is not well known but, is certainly documented here and on some other sites.

 

The exhaust manifold is a new one to me. Looks like it would be great if you were going to port the manifold.

[frank280zx]

Really Tony Al Euro manifolds are like that (so OEM, or ordered by Nissan for teh euromarket.. wait a minute, would that not make em OEM?), for once i'm happy to have something not euro.. cause basicly when you take em off (or have some really bad luck), due to age and heating/schrinking over and over agian... THEY S#ck over the last days, i have heard of several people having trouble with them, even welding them solid, Since you guessed it they ar NLA through nissan in Holland.

Well Xander we will go headers anyhow! so anyone wants to run some high $ on it is welcome

 

I have heard of p90a with solids before on sites but mostly they where not sure if it was someones handywork or not, here it is absolutly not since it only ran 60K I even am informed buy a guy that has been a Nissan dealer for a long time (datsun dealer) that runs a 240ZT that Europe never saw the Hydrolics... that is something that makes me happy agian to have something non eurospec... Note though that th eEurospecs ran 200BHP to 185 in the US

[DemonZ]

Sorry OT, but..

 

 

why would they make it 3 piece for the Euro market. When assembled, the 3 pieces look virtually identical to the one piece, minus the connections.

 

 

It would seem the 3 piece would be more costly, so why the difference?

[frank280zx]

DemonZ

 

This is easy, Nissan did alot of more costly stuff to Euro cars. Basicly since we have much more straining driving conditions, and back in those days even holland had no speed limit

So due to Higher sustaind speeds, Euro ZXT's come with diff coolers, diffrent diffs ( lsd's) gearbox coolers... Even the ZX's like the ZXT's come with standard bigger oilpumps, more effective Radiators ( up to 30%), and external oilcoolers on all models.

All this is more costly! but nececary to keep it in one piece.. I guess the same goes for the Manifold, i guess due to higher tempretures the Normal ones like we know em would be more prown to crack

The need to be biefier for the Euro market.

 

So it is not the cost, but the demands and cost at the end ( i mean cracking manifolds would not be a good commercial for nissan)

[fl327]

I like the 3pc manifold, it looks real easy to port, and you could always replace one of those pieces with a external wastegate setup.

[Xander]

wow.

 

thats a great idea! I could replace the right piece with someting custom and put a wastegate on it. can a external wastegate stand the heat of being so close to the exhasut port? All the setups I have seen place the external wastegates farther down the exhaust track.

[fl327]

I would space it away from the exhaust manifold a little bit.

Ill trade you for a one piece turbo exh manifold if its troublesome to find that piece though

[Cody 82 ZXT]

I would space it away from the exhaust manifold a little bit.

 

I agree I think it should be placed a little down the line fron the manifold. One proublem though is that it would really only be venting from one or maybe two of the cylinders. Not the best idea.

 

I like that it could really be ported nicely and then welded back up. I guess you could do that with a stock N. American model by cutting it and then welding it back together also. I know this was taked about awhile back but, anyone know of a manifold has been done like that?

[Tony D]

Yeah, that is an OEM manifold, and looks very similar to diesel truck manifolds of similar vintage.

I would posit the joints are for the expansion that comes from continued on-boost operation like you would see in Europe. The manifold is much less susceptible to warpage from the exhaust heat (remember many people claiming warpage as a reason to ditch the OE manifold?).

 

Like Frank said, the driving conditions in Europe are such that you could be under boost for an HOUR at a time. Quite a bit more strenuous on equipment than what we EVER would see here in the USA, or the JDM.

 

It is very reminiscent of high-boost truck manifolds that spend hours over the road here in the US delivering groceries---the segmentation makes sense for the conditions.

 

I was unaware of the manifold's existence. I would like to find the fiche where it comes from, as the oddity nature of it makes me curious...

 

I would go for a stock JDM or US Market version if the parts are unavailable.

 

But I can't believe a stock Euro car would actually have a non-computer controlled distributor. ECCS controls spark, and under the Euro conditions, I would have to believe the knock control of the ECCS system would be far better than the retard cannister on a conventional "spark scatter special" distributor!

 

As for external wastegate, remember JeffP was making well over 400HP with an internal wastegate and ported stock manifold (and I posit he would have gone further had he gotten access to one of these manifolds....). He was reporting 23psi of backpressure in theexhaust manifold at 23 psig of manifold boost which is a phenomenal figure for a street turboed car (very efficient!)

 

Sad about your broken pieces. I'm sure somewhere they exist, but I would have no way to find them. Odd it says "82Z" on the manifold, too. Odd indeed!

[Xander]

I was unaware of the manifold's existence. I would like to find the fiche where it comes from, as the oddity nature of it makes me curious...

 

I went to a local nissan dealer and asked them to have a look through there old mirco fiches to find this manifold. There parts guy told me that they don't have the old fiches anymore (or the machine to view them). But they did scan most of them on the computer. But no luck. The page showing the manifold was for a NA model.

So I guess that nissan europe doesn't have the fiches anymore.

 

Sad about your broken pieces. I'm sure somewhere they exist, but I would have no way to find them. Odd it says "82Z" on the manifold, too. Odd indeed!

 

There is another guy here in holland (his name is frank too) who is a total genius when it comes to manifacturing things on his CNC machines. He made some stainless rings that slide over each other and connect in the same way as the original flexible piece. He is driving around now with this system and it seems to hold up fine. So I guess i am saved.

[Tony D]

I could ship you any number of good US-Spec Turbo Manifolds (I PM-ed Frank this information) if you want one.

 

I would be interested in seeing how the failure occurred, and what the "bellows" looks link in between the separate pieces.

 

I would guess lining them up during intitial installation would have a big effect on longevity.

 

The US manifolds are fine if you clearance the bolt hoses so they don't get into a big shear loading.

 

If you want to do a swap for your broken one for a good US/JDM spec unit, let me know. (I have like three laying on the back shed slab right now!)

 

I would like to see that manifold in person. It's really got me curious!

[frank280zx]

It seems to be a problem not only due to aligment... note this car ( the manifold that Xander has was a trade in for a header from me8) na header that is ) leaned so badly the manifold was snow white inside ( wonder why the manifold got of the car here you have the answer) i think the meterial that spaces it just is tired after 20+ years of duty and needs litlle more than a touch to fall apart!

 

so tony do you think i would have issues with warping? otherwhise i need to score another manifold ... still i'm happy with mine, we can work something out with the pick up shipping i guess (when xander decides to trade it tony)

[DAW]

How about, instead of external wastegate plumbing, a manifold (stainless steel) to port off of the two junctions to drive a small primary turbocharger? It would be a primary stage, limited in flow and boost by function of inlet plumbing dia. but quick to spool, cutting down on lag time effect inherent in the large secondary turbo off the main manifold. The small primary would never be able to develop more than low pressure due to flow restriction (let's say 2-3psi max at 2,000rpm) by definition, but would always be there for low-speed driving and cover what's lost by the engine's relatively low c.r.

 

The output plumbing from the primary small turbo would also be small in caliber to enhance low-pressure flow, enhancing throttle response, and could be run through a progressive, small primary plate/large secondary plate, throtttle body to maximize responsiveness off the main boost. The primary throttle system would be separate from the secondary but uses the same metered air source (otherwise the primary is useless; it's quick response output would be lost into the main intercooler volume). The off-idle TPS function is off of the primary throttle plate and the wot functions are off of the secondary plate. It would need to run a separate, small intercooler with isolated plumbing if one is to be used at all for the primary turbo.

 

So what happens at higher exhaust flow and intake manifold pressures; does the primary run backwards? No, first off, it's limited in flow in either direction by size restrictions of the small turbo itself and the plumbing dia. used. An anti-reversion/diverter valve is included such that once intake manifold pressure meets the maximum output of the small turbo, a check-valve function prevents counter pressure and potential damage to it, while a mini-bov acts, once the check-valve closes, to keep the primary freewheeling while the main system is providing boost. I've been thinking of a basic turbo pressure-storage system anyway, so maybe I'll incorporate it to store some blow-off air pressure to supplement the primary throttle response system described here.

 

I'm just thinking out loud (er, on paper) so go ahead and tell me why it won't work for a dual purpose autocross or street car. If it would work, it might be of some benefit to a road race car out of turns, but would be of no value in all out race engines or drag racing. DAW