Guest bastaad525 Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 Just reading in article in this months Car and Driver. Brock Yates writes a column for them now, and in this months, he was talking about the recently ever-popular topic of alternate fuels for the future of automobiles. In the article he passingly mentions a (relatively?) new fuel dubbed 'E85', which is corn based ethanol mixed with 10 or 15% regular gasoline. Supposedly, this stuff yields an octane rating of approximately 104, burns cleaner than regular fuel, and is priced at about the same per-gallon as regular 87 octane fuel. Sounds like one hell of a sweet deal for us turbo guys!!! He goes on to state that some regular gas stations around the country were starting to carry this fuel.... but where?!?!?!?!?! I haven't seen or heard anything of this... if I had I"d be all over it. 104 octane for 87 price?!?!?! SIGN ME UP! So, has anyone seen this stuff for sale in their area? Anyone using it? Would there be any problems to using this in our turbo Z motors? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean73 Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 I got this from the E85fuel.com website: What are the differences in an FFV compared to a regular gasoline-only model? Are different parts used? There is only one major additional part that is included on an FFV - the fuel sensor that detects the ethanol/gasoline ratio. A number of other parts on the FFV's fuel delivery system are modified so that they are ethanol compatible. The fuel tank, fuel lines, fuel injectors, computer system, anti-siphon device and dashboard gauges have been modified slightly. Alcohols are corrosive. Therefore, any part that comes in contact with the fuel has been upgraded to be tolerant to alcohol. Normally, these parts include a stainless steel fuel tank and Teflon-lined fuel hoses. Doesn't look like it will work on our Zs without major mods. Too bad. Sean 73 240Z Turbo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drax240z Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 Formula SAE has been using it for years as an optional fuel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 Most alcohol based fuels don't have as much caloric energy per unit as gasoline. But with 104 octane you can turn up the boost and make up the difference. This one must be pretty close to gasoline if you can use it on an SAE car, unless you get to shed a few lbs to run it to compensate. IIRC none of the SAE cars had forced induction, isn't that right Drax? My understanding is that the other problem with corn based fuel is that believe it or not we can't produce enough corn to run all the cars on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clifton Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 Most alcohol based fuels don't have as much caloric energy per unit as gasoline. But with 104 octane you can turn up the boost and make up the difference. Because of this the car will run leaner unless you can adjust your fuel. Luckily most of us on here can:-D. I don't think these fuels are new. On the SDS site they were is an old writeup of their 240sx using M85, but they are Canadian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drax240z Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 Jon, there are probably around a dozen forced induction FSAE cars every year. There is no rule against it, but doing it properly with the required intake restrictor and throttle placement isn't an easy task at all. Cornell's FSAE team has run E85 on their turbo engine for as long as I can remember, and they are the most sucessful team in FSAE history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 So wait, can anyone with a regular car buy and use this stuff or you have to have a car set up to use it and not have major parts being eaten away by it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 Woah guys, don't throw M85 in with E85! M85 is a METHANOL based additive fuel, and REQUIRES the special fuel system requirements. E85 on the other hand has been around for YEARS (You may know it as "Gasahol") though typically, "Gasahol" only has 10% Ethanol, and no more. Don't buy the hype, Ethanol is not a "sustainable fuel" like the corn lobby says it is. Look to Brazil for their "Alcool" program. Fact of the matter is that most ethanol used is cracked from petroleum as it's more efficient to do that than make it from Biomass (corn, sugar beets, cane sugar, etc etc etc) For a project I ran a VW Bus on 100% ethanol that I distilled myself (have the old BATF Forms somewhere in storage). Ran killer compression, mongo spark timing, and got about HALF the gas mileage as petroleum based fuels. The more alcohol you add, the WROSE fuel mileage you return. There was a program at one time for "home production" of biomass fuels that allowed you to mix your own gasahol---the minimum mix was 10%---and that allowed you to file with the feds to get back all the federal taxes on thefuel you mixed. This is why Gasahol is so common in the midwest: Ethanol/Corn lobby has tax incentives, consumers don't realize they are getting worse fuel economy at a 10% mix, and they get (did I say this already) tax incentives and subsidies... When you go over 10%, I suppose the mew "marketing MBA program" is to make it sound "new". You want Octane, convert your car to run on CNG. 114 to 120 octane. You can fuel from a pump you can have installed at your house on your residential gas line. Gallon Equivalent pricing from residential gas lines at homes before tax incentives and credits ammounts to around .35 cents per gallon. If you can convince your boss at the Glass Factory to install the booster on the mainline there at a commercial consumer of Natural Gas, the cost drops to around 5 cents a gallon. CNG and Propane are by far the most efficient conversions worldwide. Ethanol is an artificially propped-up pipe dream. Sorry ADM, no more money for you when I am crowned King of Energy Policy! LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sumo Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 Ditto what TonyD said. From what heard and read this thing actually pollutes more and will destroy your engine. Thanks to companies like Archer Daniels Midland supermaket to the world, they want to use corn for any use. Thanks to them we use corn syrup instead of real sugar for soda except in Dublin Texas where sugar is still used with the Dr. Pepper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 not to digress too far from the point, but i was involved in the "Alternative Fuels" business for quite a while both directly and indirectly. I also lament the nice unrefined sugar taste in Coke found overseas... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug71zt Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 Always wondered why Coke tasted different overseas. The wonderful things you learn on HybridZ.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cygnusx1 Posted December 22, 2004 Share Posted December 22, 2004 Hmm, I was just about to post a question about 10% Eethanol fuel. Last weekend I went out to fill up the empty Z to store it for the winter (or as long I can stand not driving it) at a local Mobile. As I was topping it off, I noticed a small home made sticker on the pump "Contains 10% Ethanol". I wondered if I had just killed the Z. I drove it for a few miles and it ran awesome with this gas but it was also cold out. It could have been running good from the cold air. I was wondering, however, why the heck is there ethanol? I know they used to modify the fuel here in NY for the winter to improve emmisions-"oxygenated" so they said. I figured this was just another one of those emmisions band-aids. So...110 octane? Why did the pump still say 93 then? If it truly is 110 octane, and does not have any detrimental effects, I should be thrilled. The price was in line with all the other premium gas around town. I am not too concerned with the reduction in fuel mileage in my Z anyhow. Somewhat confused....good, bad or ugly? BTW, I went to see The Incredibles movie...I had gotten free tickets. I bought a small bucket of popcorn and a small coke for $8.25! Forget making ethanol, the gov't should sell popcorn! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted December 24, 2004 Share Posted December 24, 2004 Do your math! The ETHANOL is 110 octane. Mix 10% ethanol with lower octane base stock by volume and you RAISE the octane of the base-stock! Similarly mixing 87 and 92 in your tank to make your own "mid grade" for about 5 cents a gallon cheaper than the station charges (and usually with 1 octane point better to boot!) Anyway, Ethanol adds octane so they can use cheaper base stock for the "high test" while at the same time having the same terminal octane, and meeting federal oxygenated fuels requirements! Trust me, you do NOT want to try to run straight ethanol in 20 degree weather! It does NOT like to atmoize in a carburettor! This is why the higher percentage blends of alcohol are now becoming popular. With fuel injection almost universal on the consumer market now, the drivability issues with more alcohol are easily "programmed" around. When it was only carbies out there, and only the VW Type 3 had EFI in the USA it was a different matter, I assure you! :^) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cygnusx1 Posted December 24, 2004 Share Posted December 24, 2004 I would have done my math had I known my chemistry first. If we don't know the octane of the base fuel, we know that Ethanol pure is 110 oct. and the resultant of a 10% blend of 110oct and X oct. = 93 oct. then math can be done. But all we care about is the 93 oct end result so no math needed. Since I do have FI, atomization should not be an issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted December 25, 2004 Share Posted December 25, 2004 right! The only thing you get for the mix is slightly less fuel economy due to lower heating value of the Ethanol. It sounds cool having a 13:1 street engine, but my bus was a bear to start when it got below 40 degrees. And getting 5mpg on a 1950cc VW Type 1 engine does not lend itself to long trips with a 10 gallon fuel tank! LOL This is why you get a blend. I am just too lazy to do the math myself, but it works out that they can use sub regular or something like that and still get 93 octane. Sub Regular. I like that: 84 Octane, available in Michigan at Sunocos.... I mean, what's that" Lawnmower gas? LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.